Fact: the first rappers wasnt from da Bronx... they was Pimps down south

bouncy

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@IllmaticDelta Are you a journalist?. If not, you need to find a way to get this information out because this the second time I heard a different story about hip hop's origin. The first was learning about the founding fathers documentary, and I was involved with hip hop from a little ass kid living in nyc!. I remember the disco stuff because my mother and uncles was into all of it but I never saw the connection until now and putting everything together. My uncles were into the DJ thing but, it seems like everyone was into djing. Even i got into it once I got older.

Thanks for hipping me to the truth.
 

IllmaticDelta

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Another early pioneer who has been forgotten that predated Herc in the Bronx scene.

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Dj Disco King Mario

He was actually from Bronx scene and one of the founder/leaders of the Black Spades.


REMEMBER DISCO KING MARIO


This Saturday [August 18th 2001] Hip Hop's pioneers will be coming out in full force to pay tribute to the memory of one of its legendary DJs who passed away a few years back-Disco King Mario. We often hear about the achievements of people like Bambaataa, Kool Herc and Grandmaster Flash, but very little is said about some of the other pioneers who also laid down much of the foundation we now call Hip Hop. Cats like Pete DJ Jones, Grand Wizard Theodore, the late DJ Flowers and of course Mario were key architects.

Disco King Mario never released no records. He didn't produce no major rap stars. I'm not even sure if he ever toured around the world once Hip Hop became known world wide. However, for those of us who were around back in the beginning days of the 70s, Disco King Mario who lived upstairs from my man DJ Paradise of X-Clan over in the Bronxdale Housing projects, was a household name. He was known for throwing some of Hip Hop's best jams and keeping the party going. He was staple in early Hip Hop whose name and his crew Chuck Chuck City was mentioned on many of the early tapes. One of Mario's unwritten contributions was mentioned on many of the early tapes. One of Mario's unwritten contributions was how he gave
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Afrika Bambaattaa a helping hand. He used loan Bam his dj equipment. Later on Bam would face Mario in his first official DJ battle. Back in the early days it was Disco King Mario who was at the top of heap and the man to beat
Today its hard for people to understand the significance of the DJ. When Hip Hop first began it wasn't the rapper who was in charge. It was the DJ. It was the DJ came to symbolized the African drummer. It was the DJ who kept the pace and set the tone. It was the DJ who rocked the crowd and was the supreme personality who garnered the spot light. Everyone else including the rappers were secondary. Cats from all over came to your party based upon who was deejaying. Hence when Disco King Mario's name was mentioned cats came from all over because he was the man. He was the type of cat who simply had that magic and command of the crowd. Sadly he passed away before his time, unknown to many of today's bling bling artists who benefit from the culture he helped laid down.

If you happen to be in New York, you may see a flyer being circulated around that is reminiscent of the old school flyers from back in the days. 'By Popular demand DJ Cool Clyde, Lightnin Lance, The Nasty Cuzins, Quiet Az Kept Present their first annual Old School Reunion & Picnic'. It lets you know that the celebration for Disco King Mario is taking place Saturday August 18th at Rosedale 'Big Park' in the Bronx. The Big Park itself is legendary. When I was a kid living on Croes Avenue, we were absolutely forbidden to go across the street to the Big Park. That was because the Big Park was where many of many of the early Black Spades used to hang out. The Spades at that time were the largest and most notorious gang at that time. They eventually evolved to become The Mighty Zulu Nation. As for the Big Park, it eventually became the place where Disco King Mario would eventually throw many of his early gigs.

http://www.daveyd.com/discokingmario.html














---> go and listen @ 3:41

--> starts @ 5:15 then 8:30

---> @ 4:00

---> go to 2:54 and then 4:45
 

IllmaticDelta

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Gotta correct some stuff in this thread..:stopitslime:


One thing most people don't know is that HipHop culture evolved out of 2 schools..

1. Older Disco Dj's (they came before herc and were all over New York from the Bronx, Brooklyn, Manhattan and Queens, People like Pete DJ Jones and Grandmaster Flowers for example)
-these Disco Djs were professional disco dj's who did blends, mixing, beat matching etc..
-they played to more middle class and college educated types of crowds and some of them did outside parties and park jams.
-they made more money and you couldn't go to the parties they held w/o dressing up
-the playlists were heavy on disco, disco-funk and some pure hardcore funk
-manipulating songs by having 2 copies of the same record
-the rappers were the kings/crowd drawers...
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2. Dj Kool Herc and his followers (he started in 1973 and was based in the Bronx)

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-these were younger crowds...like 18 and under

-these were mainly park jams where anyone could go
-they didn't do Disco dj techniques at first. All they did was play records all the way through
-the playlists were mainly hardcore funk with some disco-funk and disco. The younger crowds wanted that pure Funk over the disco (Herc even tried to play reggae at first but noone liked it according to him)
- at these jams, the DJ was king...this was before rappers appeared in the Herc seen.
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The Bronx scene mainly happened because they could not afford to get into the Disco clubs or they were too young to get into them so the Bronx scene sprung up as an alternative for the younger kids/teens.

related video


Cholly Rock, an original b-boy from the Herc, Bronx scene and a Zulu King member. He talks about the origin of the term "Hip-Hop", the earliest rappers he ever heard being Disco Dj's and the difference in music between the Pete Dj Jones/Dj Hollywood/Lovebug Starski scene vs the Herc, Bronx scene.

 

up in here

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ayo for real, fukk the threadstarter and every other dumbass in this thread tryna dispute the history of hip-hop. shut the fukk up and take ya contrary ass out the fukking door. if someone other than herc really did start hip-hop it would have been well known by now. in the early days they had no problem crediting it to herc, now, almost 40 years later, that its worldwide. everyone got a fukking opinion tryna change the story. nikka, shut the fukk up. you think some herb on a fukking web forum gonna re-write the history of hip-hop in a fukking forum post? get the actual fukk outta here. yall let this hit run too far. give it up ya fukking idiots. dj hollywood should get props for the work he did, but herc put it on, every other muthafukka need to respect what it was. they did respect it back in the days, so should they respect it now.

and as far as "rappin", black folk been doing that since the beginning of time. yall can shut the fukk up talking about dolamite or some southern pimp or whatever the fukk, whoever the fukk and wherever the fukk, rapping is from the ancient times, from the beginning. in the beginning was the word and all that shyt, rappin. black folks. africa. god. man. life. creation. rap.
 

IllmaticDelta

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ayo for real, fukk the threadstarter and every other dumbass in this thread tryna dispute the history of hip-hop. shut the fukk up and take ya contrary ass out the fukking door. if someone other than herc really did start hip-hop it would have been well known by now. in the early days they had no problem crediting it to herc, now, almost 40 years later, that its worldwide. everyone got a fukking opinion tryna change the story.

The story hasn't changed, infact, ever since the first documented history in print on HipHop, their have been disputes on where and how HipHop started and the whole Disco DJ's vs Herc crowd debate. The one thing most people agree on about Herc is that the hard core Funk he played made him stand out.

nikka, shut the fukk up. you think some herb on a fukking web forum gonna re-write the history of hip-hop in a fukking forum post? get the actual fukk outta here. yall let this hit run too far. give it up ya fukking idiots. dj hollywood should get props for the work he did, but herc put it on, every other muthafukka need to respect what it was. they did respect it back in the days, so should they respect it now.

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You realize there is even some debate on the start of HipHop between Herc's camp and Baambattas/Zulu Nation team? DJ Hollywood unlike most of those other cats was already a payed legend for his rapping/stage show in the early 70's with mixtapes as early as 1972. Hollwood was "all city" and performing at the Apollo etc..



 

bouncy

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@up in here you should be happy to hear the truth, not mad!. Back then we only heard certain people tell the story because they knew people who had access to the media, now with the internet and YouTube, the game has changed. We can hear everyone's story, and see the truth for ourselves. This isn't just happening with hip hop, its happening with black history, as well as world history. Be happy you are living in an era where you can find out the truth, and not hear lies all day. You can still accept the lies but if you want the total truth, its here for you also.

So which one do you want, the red pill or the blue pill?.
 

up in here

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Herc put it on, all these other cats laid foundation and added ingredients but herc pulled all that shyt together and put it on.
 

IllmaticDelta

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Herc put it on, all these other cats laid foundation and added ingredients but herc pulled all that shyt together and put it on.

This isn't true. If anthing it goes something like this.

1965--> (graffiti)

1. Not even from New York, it'sfrom Philly and is the oldest element of HipHop culture.

1968-1972 (early dj's)

2. As far as playing music, Disco/park DJ's dating back to the late 1960's/1970-1972 were the early spark. This is people like Pete Dj Jones, Grandmaster Flowers, Maboya and Disco King Mario. They all predate Herc. While Dj's like Pete DJ Jones, Maboya and Flowers were actual professional Dj's with blends, beatmatching etc from all over..King Mario was actually just a hood dude from the Black Spades that was a more direct influence on the Bronx scene of Herc and Baambatta. The other dudes were from all over/elsewhere. These are 2 turntables/2 copies of the same record and mixer types. King Mario is the only one that played mainly to kids/underage teens. The other DJ's played to older teens/adult in Clubs and then kids every now and then in the parks



1970-1975 (rapping)

3. Disco DJ's were hands down the first to the do syncopated rhyming to the beat. It's not even up for debate. DJ Hollywood was the early pioneer around 1971 and then people like Cheeba and Lovebug Starski followed. They were in Harlem, Manhattan etc..


* A Disco Dj/Rapper, LuvBug Starski coined the term "HipHop" somewhere around/after 1975




1973 (the Herc Bronx scene was born)

4. Herc comes along and is playing music on one turntable and is just playing the music he likes, which could be a mix of Soul, Funk, Disco and reggae. He was basically playing to kids/younger teens in the parks. They let him know they don't like Reggae and want him to stick more to the Soul, Funky-Disco and Hardcore Funk. One day he realizes that many people in the crowd started bugging out at the the point of the record when everything stops but the Funky drumming/bass parts. The bulb goes off in Herc's head to use the Disco technique of mixing 2 records at of the same record on 2 turntables. Herc only goes to the break part and it calls it the "Merry Go Round".

The people that would dance to these record breakdowns ended up being called break dancers.




1975/1976 (rapping in the bronx)

5. Rapping (syncopated rhyming to the beat) in the Herc based Bronx scene didn't even exist before 1975/1976 and it came from Melle Mel and Cowboy. Neither Herc or Coke La Rock rapped on the Mic. They did straight up freelance talking and shout outs. This is acknowledge by Herc himself and numerous early Bronx rappers who attended his jams.

Modern HipHop from a musical stand point came about after the best of the Disco Dj's rappers combined with the Hardcore Funk or Breakbeats of the Herc scene.
 

IllmaticDelta

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A little on DJ Grandmaster Flowers



The mobile DJ, as we know him, has been around since the early 1940s. Names like Bertrand Thorpe, known for playing 78rpm records through a 30-watt amp, and Ron Diggins, have been cited as some of the first mobile DJs in the UK. Diggins even built his own art deco DJ booth by 1949, complete with home-made mixer, 78rpm double decks, lights, microphone and ten speakers. Jimmy Savile, also from the UK and recently deceased, was also originally known as one of the first mobile DJs, even so much as being one of the first to use two turntables and a microphone in the early 1940s, according to his autobiography. In the late 1940s in Jamaica the mobile DJ was also appearing and later towards the early 1960s, stars were beginning to come out with their sound systems, like Coxsone Dodd, Prince Buster and Duke Reid. In 1959 in the US, DJ John Ausby began making appearances in Brooklyn, New York with his sets. But by far, the single most important mobile DJ to come out of the US was Jonathan Cameron Flowers, also known as Flowers, and later, Grandmaster Flowers. His importance lies in the fact that it was he, who gave birth to the mobile DJ as a movement.




After Flowers the barrage of DJs came. Everyone started deejaying or wanted to become a DJ. After Flowers major DJs either started or started to become known, like Pete DJ Jones, Maboya, Plummer, Hollywood, Lovebug Starski, Disco Twins, Frankie Knuckles and others, then later the hip hop DJs like Kool DJ Herc, Afrika Bambaataa, Grandmaster Flash and Grand Wizzard Theodore for example. Flowers is the unsung hero of the entire recording industry, promoting hundreds, if not thousands of records through his sound system, which was as much the star as him, because of its power, complete with walk-in woofer cabinets, JBL bullet tweeters, Thorens TD-125 turntables and such. Flowers generated tons of sales for the record industry, something that the present day DJ continues to do for them. But it was with and after Flowers that the industry really began to see the importance of the mobile DJ as a selling machine, so much so, that towards 1975 in the US, record pools for DJs came into being, where companies actually gave DJs records to play for them for little or no money.




Flowers hailed from the Farragut Projects in Brooklyn, New York. His first appearance on the scene was as a tagger or graffiti writer. His black magic marker tag “Flowers + Dice” embossed many subway walls and parks in the 1960s, in and out of the vicinity. His official documented appearance as a DJ was in 1969 when he opened for James Brown in Yankee Stadium, a major feat for any serious artist of any kind at the time, especially considering that there were other DJs with systems out there working, like Nu Sounds and King Charles for example.




Besides his powerful sound system, which is what all DJs were recognized for during their reign before the appearance of MCs (later to be called rappers), Flowers, like all DJs then, was also recognized for the records that he played, and the way he played them. His blending and mixing of these, by all accounts, was extraordinary, and it helped to establish him as unique. He was known to throw on records from genres such as rock, hustle or disco, funk, with R&B and sometimes a little jazz. During this period, not all DJs played the same thing. If you wanted to dance to a particular record that you liked, you had to go to the DJ that played it. This is because DJs took to darkening the labels of certain records that their dance crowd liked, so no other rival DJ (or their spies) could identify what it was and play it for their own crowd. Flowers darkened his labels, probably with a magic marker. Soon DJs began soaking labels completely off records all together. This method and technique only lasted a few years. The end of it helped destroy the uniqueness of the DJ’s record sets, as far as what they played, because soon, everyone began playing the exact same records in their sets.




Some of the records that Flowers was known for playing include “Space Age” by the Jimmy Castor Bunch, “Sunnin’ And Funnin’ by MFSB, “Somebody’s Gotta Go” by Mike and Bill. “Touch and Go” by Ecstasy, Passion and Pain, “Changes” by Vernon Burch and “Messin’ With My Mind” by Labelle. Another favorite of his was the rock group Babe Ruth’s “The Mexican” (which would later become a hip hop staple as a breakbeat record and sample). He would mix that with James Brown material, and he was also known to on occasion, use three turntables simultaneously. (He would combine Chic’s “Good Times,” MFSB’s “Love Is The Message,” and Vaughan Mason and Crew’s “Bounce Skate Roll Bounce” for example.)




The venues for a DJ during that period included many parks, beaches, roller skating rinks, school gyms, hotels and community centers. Flowers, like other DJs, played places like the Hotel Diplomat, Hotel St. George, Leviticus, Club 371, Club Saturn, Manhattan Center, New York Coliseum, Stardust Ballroom, Riis Beach and Prospect Park to name a small few. If there was more than one DJ billed at a venue on a flyer (the most prominent method of promotion for DJs at the time, with radio promotion announcements being the second), they were usually billed in “versus” fashion, and labeled as battles. In that regard, Flowers battled a few, including Pete DJ Jones, Maboya, the Smith Bros., Fantasia, and the Disco Twins. It wasn’t just their music repertoires pitted against each other, but their sound systems.




DJs did a lot of traveling from venue to venue, and many times the venues were not located in the best of communities. Occasionally they were subjected to thieves stealing their equipment. Flowers was no different, so after he himself was robbed of his speakers, he began carrying a .357 Magnum for protection. It was big enough for people to see, and helped curtail further incidents.




For most of the DJs from the 1960s, their popularity began to wane during the late 1970s and early ‘80s. This was due to the emergence of the hip hop DJs and their MCs. Gigs for them became few and far between. Some tried to compete by getting their own MCs. Others were not able to compete at all. During this same period, the crack epidemic began to emerge. As time went on, Flowers would become the victim of declining popularity and hard drugs. His last known appearance in the music capacity was as the sound man for the hip hop group X-Clan in the early 1990s. He was literally spotted on the streets and given the job by the group members who remembered his significance in the industry. By the time of his death in 1992, Flowers was homeless and dependent on drugs. His name in later years would become legend among DJs who heard about his importance to the culture of deejaying.

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Pete Dj Jones




In the early 1970’s when disco was monopolizing the mainstream radio waves, the movement of rap was just being born. A man by the name of Pete DJ Jones was about the most notable DJ during those early days of disco. Pete epitomized the true meaning of a DJ. He had the precision timing necessary to enable the partygoer to do the hustle or dance nonstop while keeping the break of a record continuously playing. He had a clean mixing style and an excellent sound system. Pete DJ Jones was New York’s number 1 DJ. He had an MC named KC the Prince of Soul who was the first real MC of the Disco era. Now don’t get me wrong, during the early days, an MC was the master of ceremony and the host of the party, show, or gathering. He orientated the crowd to where they were, the DJ’s name, and also motivated the audience to have a good time. Pete had other MCs like JJ the Disco King, JT Hollywood and the great Lovebug Starski. He played at all of the big midtown clubs like; The Iron Horse,Nell Gywnns, Pippins, Nemos, Justines, Ipanemas, Tribeccas, Superstar Cafeteria etc.
Both Kurtis Blow and Grandmaster Flash note that Pete was the first one they ever saw rock two turntables and spin two copies of the same record. This was in 1972.. His influence and his importance should not be understated or overlooked. There are two pieces people should read to understand who this man was and why he was important..


2 other clips



 

IllmaticDelta

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Some other things that need to be cleared up about the whole Disco vs Funk (bboy) songs. Before like the mid 1970's,there was no genre called "Disco". What came to be known as Disco was basically Soul/Funk records or danceable R&B songs that were being played in New York clubs with certain drums and basslines.
 

up in here

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Im all for celebrating different DJs input into the birth of hip hop but alot of times discussions like these downplay Herc and come of disrespectful to the work he put in too. He wasn't just a random cat that people decided to start giving credit to. Herc really was instrumental.

But either way y'all talking about something completely different to what the OP was claiming. Y'all debating break beats and two record turntable mixing. Maybe y'all should read the thread title.

This dude claimin pimps were the first rappers. To that I say get the fukk outta here. Rapping been goin on since the beginning of time.
 

IllmaticDelta

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More on the Disco DJs vs Herc, break beats dynamic

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bUf7vTv.jpg



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Also tonight, hip-hop founding father Lovebug Starski (a.k.a. Love Bug Starski, Luvbug Starski, Luv Bug Starski, Star Ski, Starsky, etc.) spins at the Dinkytowner (more here; RSVP here ASAP). Then, later (at around 12:15 a.m.), check out Heat at the Red Sea.

Starski is arguably more influential and less known than Shante--one of hip-hop's founding DJs and MCs, he never had much commercial success beyond touring with Run-DMC in the early days. He began his career carrying records for Pete DJ Jones in the Bronx, and worked every club in the early hip-hop scene of the 1970s, becoming house DJ at legendary joints such as the Disco Fever, the Renaissance Ballroom, and Harlem World. Online searching turns up facts I haven't checked: Starski recorded his first single, "Positive Life", on Tayster records, and cut the soundtrack to the 1985 film Rappin' on Atlantic Records before recording his first LP, House Rock, on Epic. A prison sentence kept him out of the late '80s scene, but in the '90s he began DJing again with his old friend DJ Hollywood. I'll have to ask him if it's true what promoters claim, that he coined "hip hop."

In Yes Yes Y'all: The Experience Music Project Oral History of Hip-Hop's First Decade (Da Capo, 2002), Afrika Bambaataa remembers Starski as one of the earliest Bronx MCs: "In the early '70s, we was already indoors in many of the community centers in the area [Southeast Bronx]. One of the first DJs that came out of the Black Spades organization was a guy by the name of Kool DJ D and his brother Tyrone, and they had a MC by the name of Love Bug Starski."



"My grandmother lived like four blocks away from Bronx River," says Starski in the same book, "and we used to be in the Spades--in order to walk in that neighborhood I had to be in the Spades. So I met Afrika Bambaataa and Kool DJ D, and DJ Tex and all them, who were old school DJs, you know? People don't even mention them anymore."

Starski tells the authors he was introduced to Pete DJ Jones by Grandmaster Flash. "I worked with Pete DJ Jones for about four or five years carrying equipment and filling in with him when he was too tired to play. We played all the clubs, like Superstar 33, Nell Gwynn's, Leviticus, Justine's, places like that. Pete DJ Jones was big on the mature club side. Flash, Mario, Bambaataa, Kool Herc, Breakout form Uptown, and Grandmaster Flowers from Brooklyn, that was the only heavy hitters that was out back in those days, besides Eddie Cheba and Hollywood."

He also says he put on Kool DJ AJ, who has this to say: "Love Bug, he was a great guy. He might be one of the first to have that crowd response. 'Look in the sky, look in the tree, who do you see? Star-ski!' And that 'Bob didda bob de danga dang diggy diggy diggy diggy, diggy diggy with the bang bang boogie.' People used to love that. And he'd make the people shout, 'Chant my name. Somebody say AAAAAA-JAAAAAY."

"You know the way some people go to church to catch the Holy Ghost?" adds Starski. "That's how I caught the Holy Ghost--at a party. That was my spiritual thing. When I was about fifteen, between fifteen and seventeen, and I used to stay out way beyond my hours and accepted that ass whipping from my mother, for real. She thought I was on drugs at one time, and all I was doin' was house parties and playing in the parks."

According to Busy Bee Starsky (who apparently borrowed the last name from his friend), "Love Bug Starski was the only person I ever heard that played in a Burger King. Imagine that: Coming to a disco in Burger King! The lights is out, and you're playing the music, and it was different, I mean... a party in the Burger King, where you buy your burgers and fries at? That's amazing! And he did it."

"Sylvia Robinson will tell you: I was 'Rapper's Delight,'" Starski concludes. "She got the idea off of me. I did her birthday party at Harlem World, and that's where she got the idea. She said, 'I've got to have him." She'll tell you that. But I wasn't interested in doing no record back in them days, 'cause I was getting so much money for just DJ-ing."

http://blogs.citypages.com/pscholtes/2006/06/roxanne_shante_lovebug_starski.php

DJ Kool D mentioned in the articles above is another early 70's DJ who was a major influence on early HipHop but he's forgotten because the Bronx dudes keep grouping him and other's (Dj Hollwood, Pete Dj Jones, KIng Mario etc..) as Disco dj's/claiming they didn't play breaks (Funk). Listen to Dj Kool D's side of the story...




-->Talks about Herc djing style in this video
 

IllmaticDelta

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More on the Disco vs Bboy and what exactly constituted as "Break" music.

Pete Dj Jones

The First Master: The Wise Teacher

You can’t miss Pete D.J. Jones at a party – or anywhere else for that matter, he is somewhere near seven feet tall and bespectacled, today at 64 years old he is a retired school teacher from the Bronx, but if you listen to him speak you immediately know he ain’t from New York – he’s from ‘down home’ as they say in Durham, North Carolina. But no matter where he was from, back in the ‘70’s, Pete Jones was the man.

“I played everywhere”, Mr. Jones says in a voice that sounds like your uncle or grandfather from somewhere down deep in the south, even though he’s been in New York for more than thirty years. “I played Smalls Paradise, Leviticus, Justine’s, Nells – everywhere.”

“Looky here”, he says to me in the coolest southern drawl before he asks me a question, “You ever heard of Charles Gallery?”

“Yes”, I said, as I tell him that I’m only 36 years old and I had only heard about the place through stories from people who had been there. “Oh”, he says in response, “that was one helluva club. Tell you what, you know that club, Wilt’s ‘Small’s Paradise’?”

“Yep”, I said, “that place is internationally known – but I never went there either.”

“That’s ok”, he says still as cool as a North Carolina summer breeze, “When I played there GQ and the Fatback Band opened for me.”

“No way – are you talking about ‘Rock-Freak’ GQ, the same people that did ‘Disco Nights?’

“One and the same”, he says. He suspects that I don’t believe him so he says, “Hey, we can call Rahiem right now and he’ll tell ya.” As much as I would love to speak with Rahiem LeBlanc I pass, I believe him.

In his heyday Pete DJ Jones was to adult African- American partygoers what Kool Herc was to West Bronx proto- type hip-hoppers, he was the be all to end all. He played jams all over the city for the number one black radio station at the time: WBLS. At these jams is where he blasted away the competition with his four Bose 901 speakers and two Macintosh 100’s – which were very powerful amps. At certain venues he’d position his Bose speakers facing toward the wall, so that when they played the sound would deflect off of the wall and out to the crowd. The results were stunning to say the least. His system, complete with two belt drive Technic SL-23’s (which were way before 1200’s) and a light and screen show, which he says he’d make by: “Taking a white sheet and hanging it on the wall, and aiming a projector that had slides in it from some of the clubs I played at.” These effects wowed audiences all over the city. He went head to head with the biggest names of that era: the Smith Brothers, Ron Plummer, Maboya, Grandmaster Flowers, the Disco Twins, “Oh yeah”, he says, “I took them all on.”

On the black club circuit in Manhattan at that time – much like the Bronx scene – deejays spun records and had guys rap on the mike. “I ran a club called Superstar 33, ask anyone and they will tell you: That was the first place that Kurtis Blow got on the mic at”, says a gruff voiced gentlemen who, back then, called himself JT Hollywood – not to be confused with D.J. Hollywood, whom JT remembers as, “An arrogant ass who always wanted shyt to go his way.”

“I wouldn’t call what we did rappin’ – I used to say some ol’ slick and sophisticated shyt on the mike”, said a proud JT.

“We spun breaks back then too”, Pete Jones says, “I played “Do it anyway you wanna,” ‘Scorpio’, ‘Bongo Rock’, BT Express, Crown Heights Affair, Kool and the Gang, we played all of that stuff – and we’d keep the break going too. I played it all, disco, it didn’t matter, there was no hip-hop per se back then, except for the parts we made up by spinning it over and over again.”

There have been so many stories written about hip-hop’s early days that have not reported on the guys that spun in Manhattan and Brooklyn in the early and mid ‘70’s, that many crucial deejays of that time feel left out.

Kool Herc and guys like that didn’t have a big reputation back then”, explains Jones, “they were in the Bronx – we, meaning guys like myself and Flowers, we played everywhere, so we were known. Their crowd was anywhere between 4 to 70. Mine was 18-22. They played in parks – where anybody could go, no matter how old you are you could go to a park. We played in clubs.”

With a sense of urgency Mr. Jones says, “I have to clear something up, many people think that we played disco – that’s not true. There were two things happening in black music at that time: there was the “Hustle” type music being played – which was stuff like Van McCoy’s “Do the Hustle” – I couldn’t stand that record. And then there were the funky type records that mixed the Blues and jazz with Latin percussion that would later be called funk. Well, hip-hop emerged from that.”

He places special emphasis on the word ‘emerged’. He says that because “If you know anything about the history of music, you know, no one person created anything, it ‘emerges’ from different things.

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Kool Herc

“Herc had the recognition, he was the big name in the Bronx back then”, explains AJ. “Back then the guys with the big names were: Kool D, Disco King Mario, Smokey and the Smoke-a-trons, Pete DJ Jones, Grandmaster Flowers and Kool Herc. Not even Bambaataa had a big name at that time, you know what I’m sayin?”

According to Herc’s own account, he was the man back then. “Hands down the ‘70’s were mine”, he said. “Timmy Tim is the one that bought me ‘Bongo Rock’, and I made it more popular. He bought me that album, and after I heard that album I said to Coke “Listen to this shyt here man! We used that record and that was what kicked off my format called the ‘merry go round”.

Pete D.J. Jones was basically a whole other level”, says AJ. “He played disco music, and Herc played b-boy music, you know what I’m sayin?”

Mark Skillz: “So, when you say he played ‘disco’ music what do you mean? Give me an example of a record that Pete Jones might play.

AJ: Ok, he played things like ‘Love is the Message’ and ‘Got to Be Real’ – stuff like that; he played stuff with that disco pop to it. He didn’t play original break-beats like what Kool Herc was on. He played like a lot of radio stuff. That’s what Pete D.J. Jones did – that’s what made him good. I mean he had a sound system but he played a lot of radio stuff. Kool Herc played the hardcore shyt you ain’t ever hear: Yellow Sunshine, Bongo Rock and Babe Ruth – a whole variety of stuff; James Brown ‘Sex Machine’, you know the version with the ‘Clap your hands, stomp your feet?’

http://markskillz.blogspot.com/2006/07/one-night-at-executive-playhouse.html



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Founding Fathers: Before The Bronx

Hasan: No. Honestly when me
and Ron talked about doing this, we were just really doing the Queens

theme. But after we talked to these guys, they told us about people that were

in the circle of DJs, and that’s how we ended up going to Brooklyn. And then we

ended up going to the Bronx because you know we got Pete DJ Jones, he’s from

the Bronx.



The

story is not just we’re saying that Hip-Hop didn’t start in the Bronx, we’re

just saying it pre-dates the 1974 ‘cause Pete DJ Jones, this guys in his 60s

and he was playing music in the Bronx in the late ’60s.

Amen-Ra: This is where it gets

separated because you got cats like [DJ] Hollywood who we got as well. But the

problem with that is it’s kind of separated because they kind of start with Kool Herc and they leave out the

cats before them because they try to say,

“These cats were Disco DJs, so we’re gonna start

with Kool Herc,” you

know what I mean? So what that does is kind of exed

those guys out. It kind of ex’s out Hollywood’s legacy as well.



If

you look back, the Disco didn’t even exist, it was just all about playing what

was hot. A lot of these cats were digging in the crates,

they were finding the jewels. That became a major

problem because none of that stuff existed. I mean the word “Hip-Hop”

didn’t even exist at that time. It was just that whatever they thought was hot,

when they heard the break part of a record, that’s just what was going on.

Everybody had two turntables and a mixer, they was doing they thing.


AllHipHop.com: No pun intended, but

would you say that is when the break happens? Because from what I’ve read and

speaking to people names like DJ Jones and Hollywood get mentioned as “precursors”

but that it was Herc, Bambaataa

and Flash that were heavy into the breakbeats.

Amen-Ra: Well they got it from them!

Hasan: Let me answer this one. Like Ron said

we’re talking before the Disco era. There was no word for Disco, that word

wasn’t even invented yet. And these guys started playing music even before the

mixer was invented. So they had to learn to go record to record, and you’re

talking about playing with 45s. So they had to extend the records. So they were

playing the intros, the 4-bars or whatever, the little break part—they

was doing that.



All

the records that Herc, Flash and all these guys were

using, those records weren’t “Hip-Hop” records. You’re talking about from Jazz,

to Rock, or to whatever. And then people put a title on it. “Mardi Gras” [Bob

James “Take Me to the Mardi Gras”] is probably one of the biggest break beats, that’s a Jazz record. So who determined that was a Hip-Hop

record? That title came later, that title came in the ’80s.


Amen-Ra: And even after the Disco era

came in, I mean I don’t know why these guys are ashamed of the Disco era, but

Hip-Hop had such an impact before it was even Hip-Hop. Disco had such an impact

on that scene that 90 percent of those break beats, were Disco records. You

know what I’m saying. I mean I can go down a list. I mean there’s “Frisco

Disco”, there’s “I Can’t Stop,” the “Freedom” record

which Flash and em’ put out, then you had “Good

Times” [Chic] which was “Rapper’s Delight”, you had “8th

Wonder.” I mean all those records, that was the

time.



Flash’s

right hand man was Disco (Beat), they partied at the

Disco Fever you know. Kurtis Blow says “Rapping

to the Disco beat!” on “Super Rappin’,” which was part of the “Good Times” Disco

record.


Hasan: You had the Crash Crew in Harlem,

Disco Dave…

Amen-Ra: Disco Dave and Disco Mike.

Everything was Disco this, Disco that. They tried to separate it like it didn’t

exist. And you can’t do that because that was a sign of that

times.

Hasan: Just like back in the day, before it

was named Hip-Hop, it started from something, it morphed into something else,

but it had its seed somewhere. You know someone didn’t come out of no where and

just start saying “Oh I’m gonna start cuttin’ and scratchin’.”



AllHipHop.com: No doubt, everything is

in different stages.

Amen-Ra: The thing is, like Herc, Flowers…they may have not been cuttin’

and stratchin’ but the whole idea of playing in the

parks with the systems, and if you prefer to say mixin’

back-in-forth- or switchin’ back-in-forth—it

existed. Cats would say, “Well it wasn’t Hip-Hop because they weren’t cuttin’ and scratchin’ and they

weren’t spinning on their backs. So therefore it wasn’t Hip-Hop.” But you can’t

say that.

Hasan: Yeah because it wasn’t even called

Hip-Hop back then. You know we’re just jammin’,

listening in the parks. That’s all it was. Kool Herc, I was told his history is that he was the first one,

he didn’t cut, he didn’t scratch, he didn’t do none of

that; he just played records. So is that Hip-Hop just because you’re playing

records in the park? If people want to take that stance- even if they want to

include that and say, “Ok that was Disco”, you can’t include it. The

whole idea if taking your equipment to the park and playing music, that’s where

the whole thing came from—playing music in the parks. When you grew up,

everybody wanted to have two turntables and a mixer. That was the culture back

in the ’70s.

http://allhiphop.com/2009/03/09/founding-fathers-before-the-bronx/
 
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