Fact: the first rappers wasnt from da Bronx... they was Pimps down south

IllmaticDelta

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A bit more on the differences between the Disco Dj's and the Herc scenes and how they impacted the formation of HipHop

From the article below:

"In contrast to Herc's pulled-ups and needle drops, disco dj's favored smooth segues from track to track. They also tended to rap in a more mellifluous style, relating directly, if casually, to the steady beats of the music they were playing, and stringing together long verse like presentations of their own set of stock phrases rather than the freer, more fragmented interjections of the Herculords and their streetwise colleagues. The next generation of hiphop Dj's and Mc's would synthesize these distinct strands, refining (if not outright commercializing) "street" style while bringing in a harder edge to the smooth surfaces of club rap and disco djing."



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IllmaticDelta

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As far as the origin of knowing about the "break" part of the record

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Yes, the Disco Dj's were aware of the break and some of them stuck to the break part. The main difference between what most of the Disco DJ's did and what Herc/later hiphop dj's did was that the HipHop DJ's stuck to the break and looped it over and over whereas the Disco DJ might tease with the break for a bit but still play the rest of the record.

On Herc dj'ing style. At his early jams he attempted to play many things, Reggae included but the crowd didn't like it. At this point, early on, the crowd was basically all black (black american and West Indians) because Puerto Ricans hadn't caught on yet. They wanted to hear Funk music so that's what he played. He was playing the entire song on one turtable at this point. As time went by Herc realized that the crowd would get really hyped during the "break" (basically the part when the music kinda drops out and all you hear in the drummer or the bass) parts of the Funk songs which lead him to only playing the break parts of the songs. He did this in by borrowing the Disco technique of 2 turntables to play 2 records so he could string breaks together. His technique was crude and not up to par with Disco style djing but he called it the "Merry Go Round".





Getting back to Herc, his biggest contribution is that he, by observing his crowd getting hyped to the "get down" parts of the Funk records was the first DJ to initiate only going to those parts of the records. As I noted before, he was not the first to play or discover the "break" parts of the records considering we know for a fact that Disco Dj's were already doing this. The difference between the two was the Disco crowd liked the break parts but wanted to hear the entire song while the Herc crowd only wanted to hear the break parts. Read below

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Now to get to when a true HipHop Dj'ing style emerged you have to go back to the Disco connection. One thing about Herc as you can read in the last paragraph in the article above, is that he had no real Djing skills in the Disco/modern sense. He didn't no anything about blending and beat matching. Read below..


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IllmaticDelta

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In comes Grandmaster Flash and his connection the Disco Djing style that would lay the foundation for HipHop djing


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From, Grandmaster Flash: True Life Adventures

To the beat y'all



In 1973 the 16-year-old Flash was still keen to find a path to greatness. Then suddenly his destiny became clear – he’d become a breakdancer! It was the fresh fly way to impress the girls – do some drops and flips and locks and body-pops like the kids on Soultrain. What could be more obvious? He made a fine start in pursuit of this dream, but then a thorny obstacle emerged – he discovered he had a tragic inability to breakdance. “I was kinda wack,” he admits. “I tried to learn it, I did some moves and landed on my back and hurt it a whole lot.”



Flash was forced to find a new route to stardom. Luckily, for the sake of his bruised bones, fresh career inspiration soon showed up – in the shape of the borough’s conquering musical demigod. “I got the word about a guy on the west side of the Bronx who has this massive sound system. He had this pair of Shure vocal master columns, and these two black bass bottoms.” When Flash tracked down this heroic figure playing in a park on his behemoth system he heard music like never before. Tracks like ‘Shack Up’ by Banbarra, ‘The Mexican’, ‘Funky Drummer’, and ‘Apache’ by Michael Viner’s Incredible Bongo Band. “Some of it my sisters had in their collection, some of it I never heard before. But it had such a great feel to it.”



What’s more, this Herc guy was really playing around with the music, and that made it even more exciting. He’d repeat the bits the crowd loved best, fading from one track to a second copy of the same song, booming “Rock on my mellow” or “To the beat, y’all” through an echo chamber to cover the join and basking in glory as the lads dancing went full crazy. Not only that but he was enthroned above the crowd high on a platform so you couldn’t see what he was playing. Like the star he was. Like the star Flash wanted to be. “I saw people gathered from miles around just for one individual, playing music.” This encounter wiped out any dreams of breakdancing. There was now no doubt in his mind. “When I saw Kool Herc sitting up on his podium, heavily guarded, and all these people in the park enjoying themselves, that was it: I was gonna be a DJ.”



Kool Herc, christened Hercules by his schoolmates but known to his mum as Clive Campbell, is a Jamaican immigrant who stands nearer seven foot than six. Herc ruled the west Bronx as party king throughout the first half of the seventies. His success was founded on a ground-shaking sound system, a record box groaning with earthy funk tunes and an admissions policy which let in the raucous sneaker-wearing teenage element – a combustible crowd which most clubs were eager to keep off the premises. Herc’s trump card musically – something which gave him unrivalled appeal to the B-boying youth – was to play the breaks of records rather than the whole song, calling this part of his set ‘The Merry Go Round’. This, m’lud, was the breakthrough move from which hip hop grew.



Herc influenced a generation. As economics saw the DJ start to replace the local funk bands, kids throughout the Bronx saw how a mere disc jockey could be a star, could draw a crowd wherever he played. Downtown, disco was emerging from its underground origins and getting glittered up for the mainstream. Uptown across the Harlem River, while the grown-ups were dancing the hustle to pretty much the same songs as the folk in the Village, for Bronx kids under 20 it was funk tracks a few years old that were ruling the floor. And it was Kool Herc who was playing them.



Flash’s first reaction to Herc was to build himself a system. For a kid obsessed with electronics, seeing this afroed giant sitting behind a park-quaking set of components was like a glimpse of the holy grail. “With my electronic knowledge, and my ability to take junk and jury-rig it together, I started to put together some sort of makeshift sound system. And it was a piece of shyt, but it was mines.” By 1974 he had just enough equipment and just enough balls to start calling himself a DJ.
 

IllmaticDelta

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Grandmaster Flash was the first person to bring in the Disco djing techniques into HipHop. Kool Herc, who was an influence on Flash because of the records he played never really had real Disco techniques but Flash's other and main influence did and that was Pete Dj Jones. Read below


For Pete's sake



No surprises yet. So far this is much the same tale you”ll have learnt in your ‘Keepin’ it real’ history lessons. The great Herc delivered the notion of playing the breaks from on high, picking out the choicest chunks of your mom and pop’s old records, and his disciples – Flash foremost – followed him into the promised land. But not so fast: there’s another key figure, more or less forgotten today, who played a vital role in the web of inspirations that led Flash to create his new science – Pete DJ Jones.



Like Herc, Pete Jones is a giant among men. He towers in at six foot eight with ham-sized hands that once played professional basketball. “Here is one dude that doesn’t have to wear any flashy clothes to stand out in a crowd,” wrote New York DJ fanzine Melting Pot in 1975. “When he lights a match, he looks like the Towering Inferno”.



“Music For All Occasions” advertises Pete’s business card and he still takes bookings at the age of 62. He’s just back from DJing a weekend at a holiday camp up in the Poconos and there’s a flyer in the lobby of his building advertising an upcoming R&B weekender for middle-aged Bronxsters with his name as a draw. Back in the day Pete Jones was one of the biggest DJs in the city, a name you heard constantly on party ads on WBLS. Today he’s squeezed behind the wheel of his little red hatch-back, with his knees hovering up near his chin. He gives a Deputy Dawg chuckle at his car’s poor fit and offers some melodic Carolina musings about the joys of fishing.



Pete was Flash’s greatest inspiration. Why? Because he kept the beat.



Pete Jones was the leading DJ in a scene which has never been accorded much importance. Plenty has now been written about disco’s gay black underground of the Loft, the Gallery and the Paradise Garage; this was disco’s straight black overground. It was a close-knit scene of mobile DJs who’d set up their rigs in hotel ballrooms (the Sheridan and notably the Diplomat, which Pete saw trashed by the crowd in a cross-state battle when he took on Newark’s finest DJs – Steak and Red) and in otherwise underpopulated restaurants. Places with names like Pub Theatrical, Jimmy’s, Gasky’s, Adrian’s, Hillside Manor, The Loft (no relation), Nell Gwynn’s… right across Manhattan, Brooklyn, the Bronx, Queens and New Jersey. Besides Pete, the other players were Cameron ‘Grandmaster’ Flowers, the scene’s founding big-shot who sadly ended his days panhandling outside Tower Records (and who was also an early graffiti writer), Maboya, a Panamanian who pioneered outdoor parties at Riis Beach before returning to Central America, and Ron Plummer a chemistry graduate who shot to fame as the scene’s Deejay Of The Year 1975 before heading off to medical school in Boston. The biggest boost to their fortunes, Pete recalls, was the beef crisis of 1971, which left restaurants empty and desperate. As ‘Where’s the beef?’ became the catchphrase of the day, disco came to the rescue with wily promoters turning eateries into niteries. “After they’d finished serving the last meal they’d start throwing the tables to one side and put the chairs on top of each other, put a makeshift bar up and the place would be jam packed until four in the morning.”



Pete, a teacher by career, got his DJing start in 1970, just after he’d moved from Raleigh to New York, by promoting a Bronx party around the first Grambling-Morgan game, a black college football fixture. After hiring a room but unable to book a DJ, he decided to do the job himself. “I went down to Sam Ash and bought the speakers and everything. I put this system together, went out and bought the top 20 and rocked the house. The party was so successful that the guy gave me the back room of the club every Friday and Saturday.” Later the same year he covered for a no-show Grandmaster Flowers in a jam on 57th St and his downtown reputation was launched



Through the seventies Pete played his punters what they wanted to hear: the length and breadth of the Billboard R&B chart sprinkled through with plenty of funky oldies and a smattering of more obscure southern soul. “You know what this is?” he asks as he picks out songs from a stack of dusty sleeveless 45s in his dark and crammed apartment. “It’s gut-bucket music. Yeah… gut-bucket music, poverty music.” An Ann Winley tune gets an airing, then ‘JB’s ‘Monorail’, then Grover Washington’s ‘Mister Magic’, Leon Haywood’s ‘Believe Half Of What You See’, Curtis Mayfield singing ‘Can’t Save Nothing’. “Gut-bucket music is stuff like James Brown, BB King, Johnny Taylor, Tyrone Davis, Dr. John,” he explains. “When I went downtown and played in a club and everybody’s dressed up, I’d play more of the stuff that was on the radio’ – and he draws out a list of commercial hits ranging from Kool & The Gang to the Bee Gees and Donna Summer. But his heart lies with music slowed by the heat of the southern states. ‘I used to hear other DJs saying, “That Pete Jones’ music, it puts me to sleep! Because it’s too slow.” It’s that special beat. It’s that downbeat. It’s the only music they listen to down south.”



While the music they played was hardly ground-breaking, rarely veering too far from the playlists of black radio, Pete and his peers were key in spreading the innovations of the more underground clubs to a wider audience, an audience that included the black population of the Bronx. Beatmatching, cuts and blends (or “running” records, as Pete calls it) were required skills on the gay scene thanks to pioneers like Terry Noel, Francis Grasso, Steve D’Acquisto and Michael Cappello. Grandmaster Flowers, who’d been playing since 1967, as well as Plummer, Maboya and Pete Jones himself, deserve credit for developing the same skills at the same time and – crucial to our story – for showing them off to the wide world of greater New York.



“They would say that Flowers was a mixer and I was a chopper,” says Pete, describing Grandmaster Flowers’ style as being closest to the DJs in the gay clubs. “Flowers was an expert mixer. He didn’t chop too many of the records, he would bleeend. Plummer was a mixer also, but I liked to chop, I liked to get the beat – BANG! BANG! – I loved to chop. Even before I had a cueing system, I liked to chop them records up.” Emphasising his claims, Pete says he had two copies of everything. “I’d play a record over and over again, because you didn’t have many hits in those days, and you had to keep playing until four or five in the morning. So you’d play it over again and you’d shine a light on that groove and play it awhile. Best part of the record is usually that groove part,” he says with a chuckle.
 

IllmaticDelta

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To complete the process

Setting the equation



Most of the time dance music advances slowly and subtly. DJs on a scene pick out certain records and, by highlighting a particular style, spur producers to turn it into a genre. Flash’s innovations weren’t like that. His revolution wasn’t organic or accidental, it was all about vision and hard work. Flash imagined a future style of DJing and then bust his guts figuring out how to deliver it. He picked out the elements he wanted from two completely different DJs and set himself the challenge of combining them.



As he tells it, it was all about ‘unison and disarray’. Herc was the man because of what he played. But while he searched out obscure funk tracks and piled their breaks together for the B-boys, his technique, by all accounts, was pretty rough round the edges. The fever-pitch excitement of his ‘Merry Go Round’ came from the records he chose and the parts of those records he played – he had no concern for making clean mixes or keeping a steady beat. For Flash, this was a serious downfall.



“I noticed that if the crowd were into a record they would have to wait until he mixed it, because it was never on time,” he recalls. “I could see the audience in unison, then in disarray, then in unison, then in disarray. I said: I like what he’s playing but he’s not playing it right. So I says: I want to do something about that. The thought was to have as little disarray as possible. Didn’t know how I was gonna do it.”



“For Herc timing was not a factor. He would play a record that was maybe 90 beats a minute, and then he would play another one that was 110. But timing was a factor, because a lot of these dancers were really good. They did their moves on time. So I said to myself, I got to be able to go to just the particular section of the record, just the break, and extend that, but on time.
And that’s where Pete comes in.



Flash recalls: “The word gets back to me: there’s this guy who plays in the downtown clubs, playing the disco stuff. I hear he’s coming to the neighbourhood. He’s coming to my territory.” Imagining himself as a mini-Herc, and already armed with some fearsome funk tracks, Flash thought he’d have no problem trouncing a mere disco DJ. “I’m like, – Alll-right! I was sure I was better than him. Me and my boys got a couple of shopping carts and we put the speakers and the records and we walk over seven or eight blocks to 138th and Alexander. Mitchell houses.



“But as I’m walking, the ground is sort of vibrating. Wow, is there a car accident happening… continuously? And as I get closer and closer the ground is shaking to a beat. He was playing this song, and it was like neeeeeeeaarrr-pumm, and then it goes into this disco beat. As I go into the park this system was so powerful it was shaking concrete.”



Undeterred, or at least stubborn enough to carry on, Flash hooked up his meagre equipment opposite Pete’s. “I set up and when he turned off I turned on. I had a bunch of midrange and some tweeters. Of course when he turned it back on he was the complete frequency. And I’m thinking: You fukking a$$hole Flash. You popped all this shyt to your friends, you’re gonna go over there and beat this guy that plays disco.”



Pete recalls their first meeting “I was working for the department of social services at the time and this woman called me and said she had a young DJ and they were really trying to launch him. Trying to get him known, get him out there. So we set up this battle. I used to have a Volkswagen, I had my bus. I had those big horns like they have at Yankee Stadium. I had two of those. Then Flash came down. He was talented. He was fast. I’d say he’s one of the smoothest mixers, other than Grandmaster Flowers. He reminded me of Flowers.”



“Pete could have totally humiliated me,” admits Flash. “But he was very cool. He gave me his card and we became friends after that. He said, “Here’s my number, why don’t you come to a couple of gigs of mines.” I took it with a grain of salt, like – ah, he’s not going to fukking call me. I don’t even play the same shyt he plays. But he called me. I think my first gig with him was with the Stardust Ballroom in the Bronx.”



Aside from befriending one of New York’s biggest DJs, this meeting gave Flash the final inspiration he needed. Pete’s music was not what he wanted to play, but Flash was transfixed by the idea of continuity. What blew him away was hearing records merge into each other without losing the beat. This was the first time he’d heard blends.



“It was incredible that you could hear that other record coming in from the horizon, and then all of a sudden it’s right here, and then it becomes the record. He was playing Donna Summers, Trammps, stuff like that, and he wouldn’t miss a beat. He wasn’t very fast at it, but he would blend from one and I could hear the other one coming in. No horses galloping. Bass drum on top of bass drum and snare on top of snare.



“The music he was playing was not to my liking at all – I was playing the obscure R&B and rock but he was playing just disco – but the way he was playing it – the blend, where there’s no disarray, there’s unison, the crowd was into a frenzy and he was blending it – tight!
For Flash it was a eureka! moment. Lightbulbs popped inside his head as he imagined somehow connecting Pete’s continuity with Herc’s breaks. Even as he conceived this he knew it would be massive. “I watched Herc with unison and disarray and I watched Pete with unison,” he explains. “Herc went straight to the meat of the sandwich – the get-down part of a record – and it would get the people hype. I seen his audience lose their minds. Pete would play his style of a break and the people that came to his party – I seen them lose their minds. I knew that if I could just come up with the formula in between I would have something.” Seamless mixing seemed to work for disco. Could he do the same with the chunks of funk that the B-boys loved so much?



Methodical and obsessed, Flash now set himself this goal of playing breakbeats with precision. “I was like: how can I take the Herc tracks – that kind of sound – and find a way to make it seamless…?



“I had to figure out how to take these records and take these sections and manually edit them so that the person in front of me wouldn’t even know that I had taken a section that was maybe 15 seconds and made it five minutes. So that these people that really danced, they could just dance as long as they wanted. I got to find a way to do this.” This is what the world would one day know as hip hop: music made from breaks of records sampled, edited and repeated in a continuous rhythm, using nothing but two turntables and a mixer. At first, he had no idea whether it was possible, just that it would be amazing – and that if he could get it right, he would make history.
 

IllmaticDelta

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Critical theory



Central to it all was the ‘Quick Mix Theory’. This is the idea of taking a short section of music from one record and cutting it into the same section from a second, on time, back to back. “It was basically taking a particular passage of music and rearranging the arrangement by way of rubbing the record back and forth or cutting the record, or back-spinning the record,” explains Flash. This is the basic skill required of a hip hop DJ: to manually sample a few bars of a song and, by cutting between two copies of the same record, to repeat them as many times as he likes.



Flash’s supporting ‘Clock Theory’ was key to this. He needed a superfast way to find the beginning of a break. Initially he practised cuts and blends like the disco DJs – with the aid of headphones. But if you want to play tiny two-bar breaks back to back you don’t have time to listen to the record and wait for the right part – you have to get there straight off the bat. “I had to figure out how to recapture the beginning of the break without picking up the needle, because I tried doing it that way and I wasn’t very good at it.’ Clock Theory let you spin the record back to exactly the right place without having to pick up the needle. “You mark a section of the record and then you gotta just count how many revolutions go by.” To this day, a hip hop DJ’s records will be plastered in little stick-on paper strips, the starting lines for the break.



Flash even experimented to find the perfect way to spin back the record, emerging with sub-theories to describe the different methods. The Dog Paddle Theory is where you wind the record by walking your hands on its outside edge. If you prefer you could use the Phone Dial Theory, where you stick your finger near the label to spin it back.



A great influence on Flash’s style has been his impatience. “I’m fidgety,” he confesses. “I can’t wait for a record to go from the beginning to almost the end and then go into another record.” On the other hand, he was driven to create the quick mix so he could extend chosen sections of a track at will. “On the music I liked, the best part of the record was always too short,” he explains. “Frustrating. Frustrating. Frustrating. I would listen to records and I would notice: wow the breaks on these records are really short. Either that or they were at the end of the song. Or it was a problem where the best part is really great, but it would go into a wack passage right after.”



So what records did Flash use to perfect his technique? Stand back spotters, here comes the good stuff. You’ve got a library list of breaks stapled to your anorak, but which were the actual test tunes in the Flash laboratory? One of the favourites was ‘Lowdown’ by blue-eyed soul singer Boz Scaggs. This was a track he worked to death perfecting his skills. But it was a relatively late addition to the Flash canon. The earliest tunes he can recall using were ‘Do It’ by Billy Sha-Rae and early Barry White records, ‘because his joints had drums in the middle.’ He’d use different records depending on his mood. Full of energy and confidence, he’d pick out a challenge; tired and up against an irritating problem, he’d plump for something easier. “It’s like a person who works out,” he says. “Sometimes he’s using 40lbs and some days he wants to push 100lbs.” One of the heaviest weights to play with was James Brown’s ‘Funky Drummer’. “You had to really be in the mood for that. Because the drummer played for just two bars, then the record would be off.” Another track that took some lifting to keep it out of the mud was by Ace Spectrum, a track he called ‘The Piano Song’, where the good part went straight into an unplayable piano solo. “‘Rocksteady’ was another one that was really a pain in the ass – ‘cos it went Rock-uhuhuh… Steady-uhuhuh, then it went totally undanceable. It went into this real high string shyt and the bass drum really got lost. So you had to really be on your toes.” If funky drummer weighed in at 100lbs, when he wanted to do a lot of reps he’d choose something easy on the arms – like Jackie Robinson’s ‘p*ssy Footer’ or Bob James’ ‘Take Me To The Mardi Gras’. Or he might go back to old favourite Barry White for ‘I’m Going To Love You Just A Little Bit More’. “The break went forever, so you didn’t have so much rush.”



By teaching himself to streak between his two turntables, to zip each record back to the first beat of the break, and to play, repeat and recombine a few selected bars, Flash became able to completely restructure a song at will. This was manual sampling, live looping, live remixing.

After all of that, modern HipHop djing template was set and became an offshoot of the Disco djing style

You can see/hear what backspinning is in this video




and then the defining sound of HipHop djing, the Scratch was originated by Grand Wizard Theodore. Listen to how he describes Herc and Baambatta's, Djing styles @ 3:00 mins

 

IllmaticDelta

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To sum up the music related side of HipHop which includes Rapping and Djing. By the mid to late 70's the best of the hardcore Bronx side of HipHop combined with the best of the rapping Disco DJ's to create the modern form you would have by the late 70's.

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:23-->2:58 ( Kool Herc )
2:58--> 3:56 (Flash, Chuck D and DMC talkig about Disco music/clubs and the Disco djing culture on HipHop)

3:56--> 5:55 (Grandmaster Caz and Dj Aj talking about the difference in djing style between Kool Herc and Grandmaster Flash
5:55--> 6:45 (Grandwizard Therodore and scratching )

6:45--> 7:47 (Grandmaster Caz, DJ J and IceT, talking about the role of the early MC's in the Bronx before they started doing full blown rhymes)

7:47--> (A look at the Disco Dj/rappers who weren't part of the Herc/Bronx scene like Lovebug Starski (he coined the term "HipHop"), Dj Hollywood and Eddie Cheeba )

 

smokeurobinson

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@Bugsmoran is 100% wrong using Rudy Ray Moore as his source. And Some of ya'll need to do some research. You can read Iceberg Slims book and read about dudes spitting rhymes around people in the 30's....There's one section of Icebergs book where he speaks of a pimp who sh*ts on square broads in rhyme form and is asked to do it again by the surrounding pimps and hookers. This was in chicago, midwest not the south. But going back even further...reading about the Harlem Renaissance poetry wether in spoken word form or trying to manuever peoples attention for some sort of sale of a product was the norm.
 

daze23

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this thread wouldn't be complete without Sport



anyway, I'm sure dudes have been 'speaking in rhymes' for 1000's of years. that doesn't make them "rappers"
 

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:whoa: :whoa: :whoa:

Charm (Hawaiin Pimp from American Pimp) taught me that Jesus was the first pimp (sister mary was hoing like a motherfukker in those bible days)

Does this mean Jesus was the first rapper :wtf:
 

IllmaticDelta

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@Bugsmoran is 100% wrong using Rudy Ray Moore as his source. And Some of ya'll need to do some research. You can read Iceberg Slims book and read about dudes spitting rhymes around people in the 30's....There's one section of Icebergs book where he speaks of a pimp who sh*ts on square broads in rhyme form and is asked to do it again by the surrounding pimps and hookers. This was in chicago, midwest not the south. But going back even further...reading about the Harlem Renaissance poetry wether in spoken word form or trying to manuever peoples attention for some sort of sale of a product was the norm.

Some related info


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bouncy

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Its funny how disco helped with the making of hip hop with the DJ and its still like this being that house/electronic music is enhancing rap now. A lot of the music equipment used for producing and even the dj equipment, have been made for mostly house/electronic music producers but rap producers have made use of them to make rap music. Even when I used to club, house music will have sections in the club and rap another section. Or a house club is next to a rap club. Its like rap and disco(house) came into the world together, and still riding the wave of change together. Noticed as disco evolved into house and other forms, rap evolved also. All other types of music pretty much are the same as their former selves, except for dancehall but even that hasn't changed much from the early 90's from a music production perspective.

Another thing, being that everyone keeps talking about rap coming from Jamaican sound system s type culture, why is that everyone forgets that in the early 60's Jamaicans weren'tabout dj'ing, they were about bands. Why hasn't it hit everyone that some Jamaicans came to NYC, saw the DJ culture of disco and brought it back to Jamaica?. It just hit me after reading all of this, that is probably what happened. The late 60's and on, is when west Indians started coming to NYC in large numbers. This is also the time when they started developing soundsystem culture in Jamaica. I don't think this is a coincidence. It sounds like some westindian artist came to NYC, saw the disco DJ culture, went back to the islands, and made their own soundsystems. I can't see a regular Joe making a soundsystem if he has no money to buy everything needed to have a system. It had to be people who were able to travel the world, bring the knowledge back to the island, and have the funds to buy the equipment, and build the speakers!.

Disco effected everyone who came into contact with it and if you came to NYC, you had to have experienced it. I think people keep saying rap came from Jamaica is because kool herc is Jamaican so they just came up with a simple explanation but I can see that isn't the case. Also, a lot of hate has come about for disco, so it sounds good to say rap came about because it was an opposite of disco but, that makes no sense because we can hear in the rappers names that they liked disco because if they didn't, they wouldn't have names with disco in it, and the DJ's wouldn't have names that resembled the disco DJ's such as grandmaster!. It looks like we have been lied to about the history of black music, in this case rap, and disco. They weren't enemies, they were cousins!. It was people who loved rock'n'roll who were shytting on disco, most likely due to racism, and may have came up with this bogus history of hip hop that is told so many times and we keep repeating it. Look how they burned all those disco records in the baseball stadium, do you think that would have happened if disco was created and mostly populated with white artists?. I don't think so.

I also notice when the history of disco is told, it focuses on the gays who loved it but most straight people loved it also. They rarely talk about the blacks who were straight, dressed up looking classy, and went out having a good time with no violence, that made up most of disco in NYC in its early times. I think this is why they love to tell the story of hip hop as coming about from nothing and in hopeless conditions, while never mentioning the blacks of disco who contributed that weren't in these conditions. It helps fuel the racists ideas of blacks/Latins being a violent and poor people.

Maybe I'm reaching but I think racism has played a part in why we aren't taught and shown the stories and pictures blacks of disco playing a big part in hip hops formation. Those pictures showed us looking good, and coming together with no oproblems. shyt, I remember going to a barbecue as a little kid and hearing all that music, and it being peaceful. Thank god for pictures and people still being alive to tell the truth, we just need to start getting these lazy journalists to write about it when they tell the history of hip hop.
 
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IllmaticDelta

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Its funny how disco helped with the making of hip hop with the DJ and its still like this being that house/electronic music is enhancing rap now.

Remember, Disco was so huge that it swallowed up everything. This is why those Rock heads were so salty and even started doing Disco inspired music. HipHop and dance/electronic music have been getting intertwined since the 80's, through the 90's and now to the present.This is straight up HipHouse




A lot of the music equipment used for producing and even the dj equipment, have been made for mostly house/electronic music producers but rap producers have made use of them to make rap music.

HipHop is basically a form of Electronic music even though most people don't realize it. The beat making in HipHop isn't all that different from the way they do it in Electronic dance music. Timbaland is basically EDM music

Even when I used to club, house music will have sections in the club and rap another section. Or a house club is next to a rap club. Its like rap and disco(house) came into the world together, and still riding the wave of change together. Noticed as disco evolved into house and other forms, rap evolved also. All other types of music pretty much are the same as their former selves, except for dancehall but even that hasn't changed much from the early 90's from a music production perspective.

true


Another thing, being that everyone keeps talking about rap coming from Jamaican sound system s type culture, why is that everyone forgets that in the early 60's Jamaicans weren'tabout dj'ing, they were about bands. Why hasn't it hit everyone that some Jamaicans came to NYC, saw the DJ culture of disco and brought it back to Jamaica?. It just hit me after reading all of this, that is probably what happened.

Jamaican's never spun records in the modern Disco/Club culture sense. Basically what they did was like taking your stereo system from your house and setting it up outside. They weren't turntablist.

The late 60's and on, is when west Indians started coming to NYC in large numbers. This is also the time when they started developing soundsystem culture in Jamaica.

In Jamaica, they were doing the sound system thing in the early 1950's while listening to American R&B from the period. See vid below starting @ 3:25



Disco effected everyone who came into contact with it and if you came to NYC, you had to have experienced it. I think people keep saying rap came from Jamaica is because kool herc is Jamaican so they just came up with a simple explanation but I can see that isn't the case.

For sure, this is exactly what happened.

Also, a lot of hate has come about for disco, so it sounds good to say rap came about because it was an opposite of disco but, that makes no sense because we can hear in the rappers names that they liked disco because if they didn't, they wouldn't have names with disco in it, and the DJ's wouldn't have names that resembled the disco DJ's such as grandmaster!. It looks like we have been lied to about the history of black music, in this case rap, and disco. They weren't enemies, they were cousins!.

Soul-->Funk-->Disco--->Rap-Hip Hop

It was people who loved rock'n'roll who were shytting on disco, most likely due to racism

No doubt. It's because Disco was associated with Blacks (disco music came from soul and funk), Puerto Ricans and gays of numerous races/ethnic groups (white, black latino, asians, italians etc...)


and may have came up with this bogus history of hip hop that is told so many times and we keep repeating it.

many early HipHop pioneers do say they hated Disco culture and music but they were mainly refering to the watered down white, Studio 54 type presentation.

Look how they burned all those disco records in the baseball stadium, do you think that would have happened if disco was created and mostly populated with white artists?. I don't think so.

of course not







I also notice when the history of disco is told, it focuses on the gays who loved it but most straight people loved it also. They rarely talk about the blacks who were straight, dressed up looking classy, and went out having a good time with no violence, that made up most of disco in NYC in its early times. I think this is why they love to tell the story of hip hop as coming about from nothing and in hopeless conditions, while never mentioning the blacks of disco who contributed that weren't in these conditions. It helps fuel the racists ideas of blacks/Latins being a violent and poor people.

True lol. The Disco sound was originated by straight black people but it keeps/always gets associated with gays.

Maybe I'm reaching but I think racism has played a part in why we aren't taught and shown the stories and pictures blacks of disco playing a big part in hip hops formation. Those pictures showed us looking good, and coming together with no oproblems. shyt, I remember going to a barbecue as a little kid and hearing all that music, and it being peaceful. Thank god for pictures and people still being alive to tell the truth, we just need to start getting these lazy journalists to write about it when they tell the history of hip hop.

Because the story/birth of HipHop is from that POV






...that did play a part but it's too one sided.
 
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