Dune 2 - (March 1, 2024)

[nieman]

We had these exact conversations in the part 1 thread. People have been misinterpreting Dune since 1965 despite Herbert making it painfully obvious that Paul is not a good person or a savior. People don’t have room for nuance. Denis is French, not American and so is Timothee. We’re talking about an insanely distant future, the mere idea of white or black doesn’t even exist. Dune never explicitly defines the characters race or ethnicity but the Atreides home planet Caladan was described as Mediterranean so it is assumed they were Greek or European.

They are missing the point of the film if that’s their main takeaway from it. I thought it was obvious as hell even here that this is not your conventional hero story. Will be interesting to see how those same people spin it when (and not if) Messiah drops.

I gave up debating against their "White Savior" tropes theories in the Part 1 thread. Like, did y'all not see 1984 or the Sci-Fi, where 99% of the cast were white? Is that still a white savior story? Plus, he's not even a savior, hell, he's not even a good person...and still learning to play the game. He wasn't there to free them from their oppressors or rule over them. He just trying to stay alive until he gets his revenge. In both movies, it's said numerous times he needs their "dessert power". Even in the movie at the end, he squandered whatever ties he would've had.

 

[valet]

 

[HabitualChiller]

The problem I can't wrap my head around, is that Paul wasn't supposed to die. It was always frowned upon to wipe out an entire bloodline. If they found out he was behind it, all of the other houses would turn on him. And Baron "promised" he wouldn't harm Paul and Jessica. So the emperor either had a plan for Paul, or he didn't fully work through all of the contingencies. What's crazier is the entire galaxy knew Paul was trained by the best fighters and strategists, the reputation of the staff of House Atreides, so even with the Bene Geserit abilities being hidden, you still had to know he was capable.

I'm actually on my first reread in about 8 yrs.

My best guess is that Paul and Jessica would've been sent to Salusa Secundus and spent the rest of their lives under imperial watch.

The Harkonnen's plan was to kill them in the desert and say that they escaped but fell victim to the desert. Technically, that was seen as a valid excuse because neither party faced backlash in the following years that Paul and his mom were 'Fremen'.

 

[RickyGQ]

This is categorically not true and the novel was literally written to dismantle the white savior trope.

Paul is genetically and physically designed to be a superior fighter to just about anyone he comes across due to the weirding way. He's genetically determined to be the chosen one. And his mother's secret order has spent large amounts of time conditioning the people of the world to recognize him as a savior. Once the shyt hits the fan and he reaches the highest power, everything goes to hell (literally) for the universe. Herbert's entire point was that charismatic leaders are dangerous and lead mankind to ruin.

To be fair, it doesn’t make sense for the people of dune to not have tan skin with as much sun as they get.

 

[RickyGQ]

The problem I can't wrap my head around, is that Paul wasn't supposed to die. It was always frowned upon to wipe out an entire bloodline. If they found out he was behind it, all of the other houses would turn on him. And Baron "promised" he wouldn't harm Paul and Jessica. So the emperor either had a plan for Paul, or he didn't fully work through all of the contingencies. What's crazier is the entire galaxy knew Paul was trained by the best fighters and strategists, the reputation of the staff of House Atreides, so even with the Bene Geserit abilities being hidden, you still had to know he was capable.

I'm actually on my first reread in about 8 yrs.

He’s only 15 in the book when they turn in his father. Makes sense why they would underestimate a literal child.

 

[2 Up 2 Down]

Anyone here familiar with Death of the Author? (c) Roland Barthes?

Personally, I think people use the Death of the Author theory as a way to completely ignore or discredit the intent by the author. I feel they should co-exist if you want to draw your own analysis the work.

 

[shonuff]

My best guess is that Paul and Jessica would've been sent to Salusa Secundus and spent the rest of their lives under imperial watch.

The Harkonnen's plan was to kill them in the desert and say that they escaped but fell victim to the desert. Technically, that was seen as a valid excuse because neither party faced backlash in the following years that Paul and his mom were 'Fremen'.

no they werent prisoners at all - the reverend mother simply wanted Paul and Jessica since they were the most important assets of the BeneGesserict plan

teh BG didnt care about destroying the Atreides - their destruction was the disctraction that was needed to further their plans to replace the Empreror and also weaken the Harkonnens .....Paul with no family or heritage would have no choice but to seek revenge thru the BeneGesserits protection - it was always their intention to have a KH that they could control and Paul "choosing" to act with them to strike at the Harkonnens was a way to control Paul.

 

[Buddy]

Breh these muhfukkas are SAND NINJAS

 

[shonuff]

To be fair, it doesn’t make sense for the people of dune to not have tan skin with as much sun as they get.

tan white people are still white people - you dont differntiate between Italians and Scots or Russians as different white people do you?

how could a story about a white man saving a "inferior" race be the message of DUNE when the story has nothing but White people in it??

Paul is a descendant of an ancient line from the time of Rome .... that would already make him a "tan" white....not white like a Englishman or a Scandanaivian....

this is why the whole premise of the story being a white savior story falls apart - and it shows peoples proclivity to instantly engage in confirmation bias - concluding the value of something not based on actually knowing facts and instead seeing what you want to see to support what it is you already have made a judgement about. You cant be knowledgeable and do shyt like that...

and clearly some people are resisitant to knowledge because they definitely demonstrate confirmation bias .....

 

[DoubleClutch]

Finally saw this so now I can comment/read this thread

First off, I gotta say the 1st DUNE was slightly better. It just flowed better and just built up scene by scene, hit all the marks…. I can explain But I’ll spare the long comparison

But DUNE 2 visuals was

Probably best I seen since the last good Star Wars prequel or maybe Prometheus or maybe Blade runner ironically

But to give a quick review:

One thing that stood out to me was all the ISLAM references and religious themed storyline

If you know the history, I think they basically tried to mimic the early rise of Islam and Arab empires taking over the Persian/Romans etc…. And also a slight critique on Religious extremism, blind faith, and old traditions…..but I digress

I don’t see why Muslims aren’t protesting this movie but I guess it’s stops short of Naming Paul “Muhammad” or something crazy obvious…. But Paul is kinda symbolic enough, right?

Anyways,

1. I don’t really like how black people (I guess they’re Somalis ) were portrayed but whatever, this movie ain’t exactly supposed to be “Black Panther”.

2. Some of the female costume design was Goofty looking, or just didn’t fit.

But I’ll sum it up like this, same as i remember someone on this forum say about the LAST Dune:

I never watch a movie where almost every main character could be seen as EVIL.

Outside of Zendaya (who was really good in this) you cannot tell who is the “good guy”.

This is one demonic movie brehs

They even threw in a reference to Jinns like I wouldn’t catch it

Mother Reverend = Witch

“There is no side”

Good movie: 8.5/10 too long and too slow too quiet sometimes and basic acting (besides Zendaya)

 

[Jazzy B.]

This is categorically not true and the novel was literally written to dismantle the white savior trope.

Paul is genetically and physically designed to be a superior fighter to just about anyone he comes across due to the weirding way. He's genetically determined to be the chosen one. And his mother's secret order has spent large amounts of time conditioning the people of the world to recognize him as a savior. Once the shyt hits the fan and he reaches the highest power, everything goes to hell (literally) for the universe. Herbert's entire point was that charismatic leaders are dangerous and lead mankind to ruin.

uhh bruh
the DIRECTOR of THIS movie made the people of the planet DUNE "brown" ....

the people of the planet DUNE in the books are no different than all other people in that universe - they are ( appearance wise) ALL the same the people of DUNE are as " white" as Paul .... this movie is an interation where the Director put his own spin on it . The movie from 1984 has Paul learning the ways and traditions of the Freeman who are ...wait for it .... WHITE. its all white actors in that movie - in the movie that was suppsed to get made 20 years before that it was ALL white actors to play the parts.

so how is a white savior what this movie is about when in its construction and every iteration until this one only and always had "white" people?

the stuff you are focusing the story on is already misguided because you are focusing on what you are seeing on the screen and bringing your own biases and current day issues and projecting it onto the movie to declare what the story is .....when whats on the screen is really the directors vision about how the story should APPEAR.....

The book DUNE never had black people or people described as BEING black race and its role wasnt the focus of the story - in fact the author makes a point of saying he used foreign names and concepts that his audience ( americans ) would not be comfortable understanding to emphasize how NOT like the world was in his story. He knew readers at that time did not know anything about the use of arabic names or jewish concepts of superbeings / messiahs - the story he wrote is about leadership and the failure of people to recognize the need for change and to be wary of the exercise of power.

oh and again - lets make it aboundantly clear - DUNE isnt "enslaved" this is the second part of your erroneous characterization

- the whole point is that the people that come to DUNE just consider the planet a rare resource ....but a resource. Nonetheless, the actual people of DUNE live their own lives and ONLY stay on the planet - they dont go anywhere and they dont WANT to go anywhere. They only fight the Harkonnens because the Harkonnens seek them out to kill them to make sure they control the areas that they want to mine spice. the whole rest of an entire planet isnt used or explored at all by anyone from off the planet and there is no desire by anyone to do so.

What don't you understand?

I am talking about the two movies and what has been PRESENTED.

He is a white savior in the two movies.

I have definitively explained HOW.

 

[RickyGQ]

tan white people are still white people - you dont differntiate between Italians and Scots or Russians as different white people do you?

how could a story about a white man saving a "inferior" race be the message of DUNE when the story has nothing but White people in it??

Paul is a descendant of an ancient line from the time of Rome .... that would already make him a "tan" white....not white like a Englishman or a Scandanaivian....

this is why the whole premise of the story being a white savior story falls apart - and it shows peoples proclivity to instantly engage in confirmation bias - concluding the value of something not based on actually knowing facts and instead seeing what you want to see to support what it is you already have made a judgement about. You cant be knowledgeable and do shyt like that...

and clearly some people are resisitant to knowledge because they definitely demonstrate confirmation bias .....

Oh I agree with you that this isn’t white savior. Was just defending why Deni made them brown people.

 

[Piff Perkins]

What don't you understand?

I am talking about the two movies and what has been PRESENTED.

He is a white savior in the two movies.

I have definitively explained HOW.

He's in the films, you're wrong, and it's not my fault your media literacy is low.

 

[DoubleClutch]

I thought it was ok. It's beautifully shot, acting is good and action scenes are top notch. However, the pacing is jumpy. They should've just made it a 3 part story. There's about an hour missing, noticibly.

How could there be an hour missing?

The movie was already too long that’s why it’s pacing and flow was kinda off

You think DUNE 2 alone should be cut into 3 parts?


What am I missing cause I don’t think they could add too much more. The story is kinda simple and predictable by design

And that said, I think most people watch dune for the visuals and NOT a complex storyline or drama (outside of the Zendaya love interest side story)

 

[DoubleClutch]

yeh Denis says he really doesnt like dialogue - but to tell the story of Dune properly ther really does need to be some real heavy metphorical - allegory and irony in the dialogue - its really the element that is missing in the first and this second movie-

there needs to be that mix of whats being said and what is actually NOT being said but really IS being said.
That cant be accomplished with just visuals alone.

What is the “story of dune” philosophically?

What’s the message?

The movies make the story seem basic and not complex. Or maybe my standard is high…..

How does the book explore more into the metaphorical?

I think Star Wars story, underlying themes, concepts and dialogue is light years a head of dune.

And Star Wars is partly a fun kids movie where as Dune is 100% serious/dark

Dune is basically a story of ONLY “the dark side”