Dominicans of Haitian descent got their citizenship revoked

[godkiller]

I would gander Dominicans with blue and blonde hair are recent to DR and don't have much of a lineage on the island itself. Plus, there are tons of Blacks with sandy brown hair and green eyes, not much difference there.

I did not question whether Dominicans have blonde or blue eyes. I replied to the notion that "phenotype can't determine ancestry". Obviously that statement is stupid and I put forth the blonde hair example as proof. You can often tell someone is black or has black ancestry just by looking at them since blacks have distinctive traits. Alternatively, there are no pure blacks with sandy brown hair and green eyes. Blacks simply do not have the genes for sandy brown hair and colored eyes.

The Moos were black people ruled for a significant time period. Their impact on the Mediterranean gene pool is being understated. There is a reason why Pre- Moor invasion, The Italians and Spanish described themselves in their literature with typical Aryan features and after, you see a much larger proliferation of darker features.

Since this is a question of history I don't have an answer but that is irrelevant to this question anyway. Although it is true Spanairds and Italians have small amounts of non-white ancestry on average, it is also true that 1) many Arabs and Berbers live and move to these countries and these two populations together might mean the study results are inflated 2) the admixture percentage is small and some regions of both Spain/Italy have no admixture and 3) they're mostly white so who cares. I don't claim Spanairds and they don't claim me.

You said West Africans were black as darkness and other regions had Arabic influence and that most Black American's are West African.

I actually did not say any of what you said I said. did not say West Africans were black as darkness. I said the slaves were. I did not all say other African regions have Arab influence either because his is not true. South Africa does not have Arab influence. Only some pockets of East Africa have enough Arab influence to question. Lastly I did not say "most black Americans are West African". If you mean to say most black Americans are descended from that region, yes that is true.

I am saying that does not matter since Post- Slavery has saw the lines between distinct African diasporas have blurred.

Since we are talking about factual points, I just want to make sure we are factual. Just because the lines are blurred doesn't mean there aren't lines we should be careful to notice.

Bro, this is stupid shyt I've ever heard, Most east africans aren't mix with Arab, Oromo which is biggest group in Ethiopia are largely unmixed, Amhara is different story(although their admixture is overstated, centuries old like northern Sudanese).

I said "variously mixed" which means "on occasion". There are some unmixed East Africans and some mixed East Africans, which is something you and I both agree on. The point is, as a result of this uncertainty, you cannot use a group like that as any benchmark for black people. You must use a relatively pure group for study just like you must use a relatively pure East Asian group to study East Asians.

Hausa and Fulani mixed, you know Africans phenotypes vary. Are Igbo peole mixed since a good portion of there people are as light as Will Smith, Alicia Keys, and other light skinned African-Americans?
Do some research......

Do some research. Hausa and Fulani are sometimes mixed, sometimes not. There are Fulani in Tunisia (Berber country) who look very different to the Fulani in black countries. Remember the group is migratory.

I did investigation on this topic. In doing so I've seen photos of Igbo villages from the 1950s, before modernization, money and bleaching hit Nigeria. The 40+ Igo people milling around the Igbo market in the photo I saw were indistinguishable from other West Africans. They looked no different. I didn't see any light skins or mixed. If they were so prominent as to be natural I would have seen them in my investigations. I've also seen various pictures of Igbo village meetings and the lightest I saw was brown skin. So I think some Igbo are 1) intermixing or 2) bleaching (a known phenomenon).

How come when someone brings up non-typical light features in African populations they always talk about the Igbo? Is there no other group which has these features? If light features were a natural part of the black condition, wouldn't it be proliferate across the black populations? The fact the features don't proliferate implies they are not natural.


No Haiti and DR relationship does not work like that. They had totally different Imperial conquerers. The French are not the Spanish. Maintain it's look? There is no White people to dilute it and plus most African phenotypes are dominate, breh. It don't fade like that.[/quote]

 

[7oclock]

I agree, it is more of a melting pot, so what is this malarkey of us being a stagnant population that is more similar to our ancestors than other African populations? It just isn't true.

I agree with this, but overall compared to other ethncitiies _

Dont want to change the subject but why would an African in america call themselves "African American" when they have their own country of origin in that they identify with?

I would just say consistency. I think blacks and whites that have been here generations should really lose the titles of AFrican and European Americans and leave that to immigrants/migrants who are living here. That's just my opinion, I don't call myself African American...I'm American and I'm black.

It's splitting hairs but that's just how I see it

 

[Poitier]

I did not question whether Dominicans have blonde or blue eyes. I replied to the notion that "phenotype can't determine ancestry". Obviously that statement is stupid and I put forth the blonde hair example as proof. You can often tell someone is black or has black ancestry just by looking at them since blacks have distinctive traits. Alternatively, there are no pure blacks with sandy brown hair and green eyes. Blacks simply do not have the genes for sandy brown hair and colored eyes.


Since this is a question of history I don't have an answer but that is irrelevant to this question anyway. Although it is true Spanairds and Italians have small amounts of non-white ancestry on average, it is also true that 1) many Arabs and Berbers live and move to these countries and these two populations together might mean the study results are inflated 2) the admixture percentage is small and some regions of both Spain/Italy have no admixture and 3) they're mostly white so who cares. I don't claim Spanairds and they don't claim me.



I actually did not say any of what you said I said. did not say West Africans were black as darkness. I said the slaves were. I did not all say other African regions have Arab influence either because his is not true. South Africa does not have Arab influence. Only some pockets of East Africa have enough Arab influence to question. Lastly I did not say "most black Americans are West African". If you mean to say most black Americans are descended from that region, yes that is true.



Since we are talking about factual points, I just want to make sure we are factual. Just because the lines are blurred doesn't mean there aren't lines we should be careful to notice.



I said "variously mixed" which means "on occasion". There are some unmixed East Africans and some mixed East Africans, which is something you and I both agree on. The point is, as a result of this uncertainty, you cannot use a group like that as any benchmark for black people. You must use a relatively pure group for study just like you must use a relatively pure East Asian group to study East Asians.


Do some research. Hausa and Fulani are sometimes mixed, sometimes not. There are Fulani in Tunisia (Berber country) who look very different to the Fulani in black countries. Remember the group is migratory.

I did investigation on this topic. In doing so I've seen photos of Igbo villages from the 1950s, before modernization, money and bleaching hit Nigeria. The 40+ Igo people milling around the Igbo market in the photo I saw were indistinguishable from other West Africans. They looked no different. I didn't see any light skins or mixed. If they were so prominent as to be natural I would have seen them in my investigations. I've also seen various pictures of Igbo village meetings and the lightest I saw was brown skin. So I think some Igbo are 1) intermixing or 2) bleaching (a known phenomenon).

How come when someone brings up non-typical light features in African populations they always talk about the Igbo? Is there no other group which has these features? If light features were a natural part of the black condition, wouldn't it be proliferate across the black populations? The fact the features don't proliferate implies they are not natural.


No Haiti and DR relationship does not work like that. They had totally different Imperial conquerers. The French are not the Spanish. Maintain it's look? There is no White people to dilute it and plus most African phenotypes are dominate, breh. It don't fade like that.

You are giving extreme examples. I look like a typical black man, but the women in my family are all fair with green eyes and wavy hair. My dad is dark as night but has incredibly wavy hair as well. You could not determine ancestry based on that. You are underselling the Moor influence. The Moor's ruled Spain for 700, I repeat 700 years, Spanish heritage maybe majority Aryan, but it damn sure ain't something like a 90 10 split. The Arabic and African influence is clearly seen in most Mediterranean people's phenotypes.

Does North Africa not exist? You fail to address that. Egypt came from the land of Punt (Sub-Sahara). Like many of the other North African regions, invasions and assimilation changed that into what we see today, but those people have claims to true Nubian lineage.

I know people with Dominican moms and Black pops. Trinidadian dad and British mom. Yes the different diasporas are different enough at present day to distinguish but that will change.

I agree that light features are not "African" at least when Ancient Nubians were isolated but those Eurasian tribes came back into African and introduced those back into the population. Also, you discount Albino people who were have mutations that strip them of dominant genes, though I do not know if they carry the dominant gene traits unexpressed?

 

[Imyremeshaw]

I said "variously mixed" which means "on occasion". There are some unmixed East Africans and some mixed East Africans, which is something you and I both agree on. The point is, as a result of this uncertainty, you cannot use a group like that as any benchmark for black people. You must use a relatively pure group for study just like you must use a relatively pure East Asian group to study East Asians.

[/quote]

The thing is in genetics, there is no such thing as "pure group", there are genetic markers which indicate someones genetic lineage. There is nothing in genetic peer reviewed journals that have indicated that Fulani or Hausa have had major intermixing with outside "races", other than neighboring ethnicities, which doesn't explain their "supposed" East African look.

Do some research. Hausa and Fulani are sometimes mixed, sometimes not. There are Fulani in Tunisia (Berber country) who look very different to the Fulani in black countries. Remember the group is migratory.

I did investigation on this topic. In doing so I've seen photos of Igbo villages from the 1950s, before modernization, money and bleaching hit Nigeria. The 40+ Igo people milling around the Igbo market in the photo I saw were indistinguishable from other West Africans. They looked no different. I didn't see any light skins or mixed. If they were so prominent as to be natural I would have seen them in my investigations. I've also seen various pictures of Igbo village meetings and the lightest I saw was brown skin. So I think some Igbo are 1) intermixing or 2) bleaching (a known phenomenon).

How come when someone brings up non-typical light features in African populations they always talk about the Igbo? Is there no other group which has these features? If light features were a natural part of the black condition, wouldn't it be proliferate across the black populations? The fact the features don't proliferate implies they are not natural..

[/quote]

Bro, I'm Uregu(berber) from Morocco, berbers we come in all shapes and colors. Just cause you saw some photos of Igbos in the 1950s, doesn't mean that Africans don't have various phenotypes, don't let the white man play you like that, there is more diversity within Africa than their is in the whole world( I'm testament to that, black moroccan). Igbos and various groups such as fulani, Jula, Akan have people that easily could pass for East African without ANY ADMIXTURE, I know this from firsthand cause I lived in Cote D'Ivoire and interact with these people daily.

 

[karim]

There is literally nothing you have to go by other than what's coming out of your mouth. I'd gander that most Dominicans are not more mixed, people just assume that because of their phenotype.

Black America has a pretty significant redbone/issed the part where I said the slave trade started MUCH earlier than in America and they gained their freedom from their Spanish conquerer earlier. Not to mention, Spain had been under Moor, another Black arabic population. WASP, American slave masters, are significantly more pure Aryan than the Spanish.

Also, we live in post-Slavery times. Many of us have MORE African lineages than just West Africa. Shyt, the poster a few post above has Ethiopian lineage.

dominicans are mixed. They imported slaves in the early years of the colony but soon after, the spaniards discovered mexico and cuba and focused their energies there (one for gold and silver, the other for harvesting sugar cane). As a result hispaniola was neglected and the power of the state was limited to santo domingo and santiago. Slaves who fled into the country side were free. They developed their own culture and mixed with the white population that lived in the same area as well as with the haitians in the border regions. That is why mulattos make up the overwhelming part of society.

The rural population had no problems with the haitians, quite to the contrary, in regions close to the frontier they mingled, traded and mixed to such an extent that it was difficult for them to tell who was haitian and who was dominican. In addition they identified more with the community they belonged to than with their nationality. This was, as mentioned earlier, because the power of the central state was limited to the two biggest cities. The only ones who had a problem with Haiti were the white urban upperclass. This was because they feared an uprising of black against white people As had happened in Haiti.

When Trujillo came into power, one of his goals was to extend the power of the central state and to creste fixed frontiers out of the only loosely defined border regions. He allied with the white upperclass and developed an ideology that claimed that the dr was a cultured nation of european descend which was threatened by barbarian dark skinned haitians. One of the architects of this ideology was Joaquin Balagues who would go on to rule the coubtry for much of the second half of the 20the century. Trujillo commited the parsley massacre, killing off much of the haitian population living in the DR. The massacre was a shock strategy with the aim to define the border regions, stop haitians and dominicans from trading and mixing and to create a perceived threat from haiti that encouraged dominicans to identify with their nation instead of their local community. In order to do so, he later claimed the massacre wasn't commited by government forces but by the local population which defend itself from haitians crossing the border in order to rob and steal. The strategy was successful and in order to "protect" the nation from the supposed haitian threat, trujillo stationed troops in the border areas, fixing the frontier and at the same time, imposing taxes on all trade between haiti and the dr.

Trujillo industrialized the DR, while Haiti made its money as a tourist destination for rich americans and europeans. Economically, both of them were more or less at the same level. Only when Papa Doc came into power, the two countries started to develop into different directions. This was because Papa Doc ruined Haitis finances by being a cleptocrat on the one hand and on the otheer hand wasting huge amounts of money on megalomaniac infrastructure projects, such as building a new and hypermodern capital in the middle of nowhere that was never used.

In the meantime, the dr got rid of trujillo and elected a socialist president who was quickly overthrown by the countries oligarchy in aliance with the us. balaguer came into power and dominated the country from 1965 until 1996. he refined trujillos ruling system and created a system of patron-client networks that still dominates dominican politics to this day. in order to distract the population from the corruption and injustices of his rule, he regularly reminded them of the haitian threat, rounding up haitian immigrants and deporting them to haiti. this tactic became especially important when his biggest rival for power turned out to francisco pena gomez, a socialist politican of haitian descent. dominican politicians still make use of this practice and this is also why the new constitution, which was mainly designed to allow president leonel fernandez to be re-elected, contains a part that denies the children of illegal immigrants citizenship (along with a controversial paragraph about abortion and other smokescreens).

the reinforcement of dominican self-hate and the denial of their african ancestry is one of many means employed by the ruling elite to distract the population from their exploitation. they give them an enemy they can focus on and look down upon and in doing so, prevent them from asking questions about social equality, wealth distribution and government spending. unfortunately for both parts of the island, they are pretty successful with this.

 

[WhyYouCry]

These Dominican threads are made once every month now. It's getting old.

 

[Poitier]

dominicans are mixed

Literally that whole story didn't refute anything I said. They aren't anymore mixed than any of these other b*stard Western hemisphere mutts. There is a 20 year gap between Dominican and American African independence. Also, all you described is a caste system and racial politics, like that didn't exist in America. Ever heard of house nikkas? Mullatos existed in America too, to a large degree. Ever heard of the one drop rule? Native American tribes owned Slaves. Yall gotta stop acting like they are some special mixture, the same shyt happened in most African diasporas in the Western Hemisphere.

 

[Nomad1]

Yeah like Israel did all by themselves

China did it...japan did it...botswana did it...Haiti could do the same

 

[porque]

man this thread took a hell of a turn

 

[karim]

Literally that whole story didn't refute anything I said. They aren't anymore mixed than any of these other b*stard Western hemisphere mutts. There is a 20 year gap between Dominican and American African independence. Also, all you described is a caste system and racial politics, like that didn't exist in America. Ever heard of house nikkas? Mullatos existed in America too, to a large degree. Ever heard of the one drop rule? Native American tribes owned Slaves. Yall gotta stop acting like they are some special mixture, the same shyt happened in most African diasporas in the Western Hemisphere.

I don't say they are some spevial mixture, i say they are mixed and not the descendents of ligjt skinned africams that were brought there. Yes ethiopians have more "european" (for lack of a better word) facial feature but they are still dark skinned. You will be hard pressed to find ligjt skinned and sometimes even fair haored people in africa who aren't mixed. Plus if you look at where slaves came from its places with dark skinned africans. The spanish colonial system allowed for races to mix and in the dr if was espcially pronounced because outside of the major cities there was basically no colonial government. In the countryside, race relations played no role until they were imposed by trujillo. I know that there were mulattos in other countries and but i don't know how that supports your argument that dominicans aren't mixed. They mostly are

 

[karim]

China did it...japan did it...botswana did it...Haiti could do the same

You seem to have a clear grasp of economies .
Comparing Haiti to China and Japan. The country is half of a small fukking island ruled by a corrupt elite that has close to no resources, no infrastructure, no education system to speak of, huge amounts of debts, was deforrested by the French and is regularly hit by natural catastropies as a result. How do you suggest they turn themselves into an economic powerhouse?

 

[Lewis Black]

Most African Americans are a 80 African % 20/15 White % 5 Native America % mix . If you're a multi-generational person in America, you are not pure-blood anything.

I have pictures of my White Great Great Grandmother and Indian Great Grandfather on one side. My Grandfather was raised by his freed slave Grandmother. Shyt wasn't that long ago.

We are nowhere near genetically similar to our African cousins. We have the same caste system in America except it is WASP > Fair Skin > Dark skin

Creoles and Dominicans think their special cause they have French or Spanish blood and not German or English blood in them

Funny thing is, The Moors pillaged the Mediterranean so even Spanish people are a product of Black genetics

You as worse as the dominicans you were trying to shyt on breh.


My take on the situation, to all you self hating dominicans fukk yall

to all the real dominicans like @krackdagawd salute yall

 

[emoney]

Look at the Berber (Touareg), them nikkas is indigenous to Africa and they be comin out with light eyes and light skin, what that tell you?

Tuaregs are just one of many branches of the Berber Peoples. There are Berbers that are not Tuareg...in fact most Berbers are not Tuareg.

We gotta erase this thinking and be inclusive of all blacks, no matter what, cause once we abandon them they start running off to crackers and worse off with the ingrained white supremacy.

So this is what you fear

Blacks being inclusive is what has caused all the problems. You have Black people getting shytted on by Dominicans and others regularly yet still calling them "our brothers" and saying "I got a love for them"...This is pathetic. Why would Dominicans change the way they look at Haitians when at the end of the day Haitians still gonna suck them off?

 

[emoney]

Hausa and Fulani mixed, you know Africans phenotypes vary. Are Igbo peole mixed since a good portion of there people are as light as Will Smith, Alicia Keys, and other light skinned African-Americans?
Do some research......

There are about 30 million Igbos in Nigeria and I can guarantee you a majority of them do not look like Will Smith much less Alicia Keys. This statement has to be one of the dumbest of the year.

 

[emoney]

I'm not saying Upper Egypt, I'm talking about Lower Egypt, unless they weren't indigenous to that area. Even so, the white admixture in African American communities is to a minute degree especially in comparison to other New World colonies such as Latin America. We didn't keep mixing with them (and the mixing occurred most likely because of rape since relationships probably hardly ever occurred and if it did during that time period it was illegal so they had to hide it), African Americans are usually exclusive to each other. I know this for a fact, we barely date out. Heck my own mother and father's marriage drew a wedge between their families and she's black.

You should take into account that there has been a lot of race mixing post-slavery and even more post desegregation/integration that has affected the "African"-American gene pool.