Does the large Caribbean presence in NYC's Hip Hop scene explain the disconnect with other regions?

[Formerly Black Trash]

OP is ludicrous

 

[kingofnyc]

dude, you haven't debunked anything that I posted.

you nikkaz aint gonna address the original BBoy saying
DJ Pete Jones & DJ Flowers were Disco DJ’s and hated hip hop

—————-

 

[IllmaticDelta]

you nikkaz aint gonna address the original BBoy saying
DJ Pete Jones & DJ Flowers were Disco DJ’s and hated hip hop

—————-

the answer to that is more nuanced than flat out saying, "pete dj jones and flowers hated hiphop"

...they didn't hate hiphop, what the bboy's took as hating hiphop was that you had to dress to get into their club parties and they didn't wan't cat's spinning on the floor in those establishments. When Pete dj jones and flowers were in parks, you could wear whatever you wanted. This is why in the 30 years of hiphop special they made sure to mention him along with other so-called disco dj's such as, Dj Hollywood and Eddie Cheeba as founders of hiphop

dj aj even mention disco king mario at he end of the clip

 

[kingofnyc]

the answer to that is more nuanced that flat out saying, "pete dj jones and flowers hated hiphop"

...they didn't hate hiphop, what the bboy's took as hating hiphop was that you had to dress to get into their club parties and they didn't wan't cat's spinning on the floor in those establishments. When Pete dj jones and flowers were in parks, you could wear whatever you wanted. This is why in the 30 years of hiphop special they made sure to mention him along with other so-called disco dj's such as, Dj Hollywood and Eddie Cheeba as founders of hiphop

dj aj even mention disco king mario at he end of the clip

he clearly said they hated to play their music
the fact that you & others ignore this, proves my original point them being debunked as hip hop pioneers


Hollywood & Cheeba indeed bring the emcee DJing to another level BUT that was well into the very late 70’s damn near beginning 80’s (we talking ‘78 , 79 ish) shyt was already done

and BTW i heard DJ Mario was part Puerto Rican so does that hurt your outcry of this topic

 

[IllmaticDelta]

he clearly said they hated to play their music
the fact that you & others ignore this, proves my original point them being debunked as hip hop pioneers

How could they hate it when all discos played what later became hiphop's foundation (disco-funk)?

Hollywood & Cheeba indeed bring the emcee DJing to another level BUT that was well into the very late 70’s damn near beginning 80’s (we talking ‘78 , 79 ish) shyt was already done

hollwood a cheeba, specifically, hollywood is before the late 70's


rapping dj's is before 1973!!!!

and BTW i heard DJ Mario was part Puerto Rican so does that hurt your outcry of this topic

mario is/was afram from the south (north carolina)

 

[LieutenantDan]

It’s true

 

[KillSpray]

Interesting thread, here’s my two cents living in nyc my whole life, being caribbean and my own personal studies on nyc history.

NYC really is distinct in terms of sound from the south and west coast, but I don't think it's the Caribbean presence in nyc. First thing I'll mention is the backdrop to the formative period of hip hop. in the early 70's nyc was in a fiscal crisis, and nyc was on the brink of bankruptcy. Prior to that period, NYC had a lot of social programs and education initiatives that included free access to NYC community college, music programs in the schools, etc... When the fiscal crisis hit, the federal govt refused to bail the city out of it's debt problem, and the city had to make massive social cuts. Those events changed the make-up of the city drastically. White flight, economically depressed, no social programs, poverty, it was a mess. That's why I don't think its a coincidence that hip hop is the only genre I can think of that was created by non-musicians. The people who created hip-hop were not musicians, and didn't have a musicians background... they were DJ's, manipulating pre-recorded material. Eventually, when hip-hop became nationally popular, other regions who had a much stronger tradition of musicianship got a hold of the music, it was only natural that they brought that musicians perspective that was lacking in NYC. I believe that was the main difference between the traditional NY sound, which was developed and evolved by non-musician DJ's, who lacked any formal music training, and who were obsessed with collecting and discovering pre-recorded material to flip, and southern artists, who very early on began incorporating musicians into the creative process.

As a matter of fact, I would even say the NY scene was anti-musician, at least for a period, because when Sylvia Robinson put together "Rapper's Delight" she used a live band, and authentic hip-hop people in NYC thought that sound was trash, watered down, and didn't represent the shyt they were trading on cassette's that involved DJ's cutting records recorded in the 60s-70s, on primitive recording equipment, recorded again, then finally distributed on cassette. It was lo-fi. The south and the west pretty much introduced live musicians immediately when they started producing their own records, and did not have such a strong bias against it as those in NYC. Things evolved from there, and I think it was inevitable that those with actual musician's tradition would take over. It was a innocent rebellion on NY's part, but it never made sense. The rest is history.

 

[KillSpray]

The thing a lot of folks don't understand bout DIsco/Dance, was the Gay scene was literally just following the footsteps of the Black party scene back then.

Studio 54, the loft, and all them famed Disco had nothing but Black djs(Flowers, Pete Jones etc). All the shiit they was playing, them tunes were already months or years old in the Black club world.

It irks me a bit when folks try to give so much credit to Gays for Disco and later House, when the foundations were in the Parks, random clubs, community centers. Where it was just Black Djs spinning to a regular Black crowd

Like this for example

Listen to NU SOUNDS LIVE AT ST GABRIELS 6/11/77 by hass718 #np on #SoundCloud

This is interesting to me, because I noticed it too. I think it may have something to do with the fact that when certain shyt hit the gay scene, it was more economically viable, making it seem more "real." Like the gay community, being outcasts and insular, created their own scenes where they spent money and had powerful, well off people involved. I wonder if that has anything to do with it.

 

[frush11]

This is interesting to me, because I noticed it too. I think it may have something to do with the fact that when certain shyt hit the gay scene, it was more economically viable, making it seem more "real." Like the gay community, being outcasts and insular, created their own scenes where they spent money and had powerful, well off people involved. I wonder if that has anything to do with it.

Pretty much, they had the whole downtown, artsy, celeb world with them.

 

[IllmaticDelta]

Interesting thread, here’s my two cents living in nyc my whole life, being caribbean and my own personal studies on nyc history.

NYC really is distinct in terms of sound from the south and west coast, but I don't think it's the Caribbean presence in nyc. First thing I'll mention is the backdrop to the formative period of hip hop. in the early 70's nyc was in a fiscal crisis, and nyc was on the brink of bankruptcy. Prior to that period, NYC had a lot of social programs and education initiatives that included free access to NYC community college, music programs in the schools, etc... When the fiscal crisis hit, the federal govt refused to bail the city out of it's debt problem, and the city had to make massive social cuts. Those events changed the make-up of the city drastically. White flight, economically depressed, no social programs, poverty, it was a mess. That's why I don't think its a coincidence that hip hop is the only genre I can think of that was created by non-musicians. The people who created hip-hop were not musicians, and didn't have a musicians background... they were DJ's, manipulating pre-recorded material. Eventually, when hip-hop became nationally popular, other regions who had a much stronger tradition of musicianship got a hold of the music, it was only natural that they brought that musicians perspective that was lacking in NYC. I believe that was the main difference between the traditional NY sound, which was developed and evolved by non-musician DJ's, who lacked any formal music training, and who were obsessed with collecting and discovering pre-recorded material to flip, and southern artists, who very early on began incorporating musicians into the creative process.

As a matter of fact, I would even say the NY scene was anti-musician, at least for a period, because when Sylvia Robinson put together "Rapper's Delight" she used a live band, and authentic hip-hop people in NYC thought that sound was trash, watered down, and didn't represent the shyt they were trading on cassette's that involved DJ's cutting records recorded in the 60s-70s, on primitive recording equipment, recorded again, then finally distributed on cassette. It was lo-fi. The south and the west pretty much introduced live musicians immediately when they started producing their own records, and did not have such a strong bias against it as those in NYC. Things evolved from there, and I think it was inevitable that those with actual musician's tradition would take over. It was a innocent rebellion on NY's part, but it never made sense. The rest is history.

NY was never anti-musician. Remember, you had disco-soul-funk (live musicians) and the punk scene before, during and after hiphop came up








.....it was the 2nd generation of dj's and first generation of hiphop mc's ON WAX who were anti-instruments because they came up during the time of the cutbacks in instrument playing in school + the early hiphop world was the domain of the DJ and the music they played where no live instruments were played to create music. The MC's wanted the complete interaction with dj's cutting/manually sampling the songs they loved that they couldn't recreate with studio musicians/recordings.

 

[How Sway?]

Nah, it's the ny lifestyle and the godbody aspect in hip-hop that makes it different from other regions...

If the carribean influence was bigger, then ny hiphop would sound more like Miami bass which it Cleary doesnt lol.

 

[KillSpray]

Interesting thread, here’s my two cents living in nyc my whole life and my own personal studies on nyc history.

The reason why I think NYC was distinct from southern and west coast hip hop was

NY was never anti-musician. Remember, you had disco-soul-funk (live musicians) and the punk scene before, during and after hiphop came up








.....it was the 2nd generation of dj's and first generation of hiphop mc's ON WAX who were anti-instruments because they came up during the time of the cutbacks in instrument playing in school + the early hiphop world was the domain of the DJ and the music they played where no live instruments were played to create music. The MC's wanted the complete interaction with dj's cutting/manually sampling the songs they loved that they couldn't recreate with studio musicians/recordings.

Yeah that’s what I meant, I was too broad. It wasn’t the whole of NY. Right, when you look at it, I guess that was the 2nd generation hip hop scene that became anti instruments and were obsessed with vinyl and sampling.

 

[kingofnyc]

How could they hate it when all discos played what later became hiphop's foundation (disco-funk)?

hollwood a cheeba, specifically, hollywood is before the late 70's


rapping dj's is before 1973!!!!







mario is/was afram from the south (north carolina)

@truth2you

my nikka
with all due respect
I have absolutely positively nothing against you
with that said

all of them links, all the videos, all them media you have attached to this thread and throughout this website thecoli and old website SOHH for years and years has been completely debunked by the video below by Cholly Rock
it completely destroys everything you have been preaching for the pass decade or so

The original Bboy broke down the relationship between disco and hip-hop and use the analogy of R&B to rock ‘n’ roll
he then took it to even another level with saying how the hell can you claim something when you didn’t want to have anything to do with it when it was birthed
and use the perfect analogy/comparison to a kid that’s born and the father not wanting to raise said kid ; teach said kid ; have anything to do with said kid..... thereafter two decades later, same said kid get drafted & signs that million dollar contract to the NBA : then outta the blue said biological father shows up saying **THATS MY SON**

so can we finally put this mythical bullshyt revisionist history, that’s been spewing over the past couple of decade to rest
and let the truth be the truth
again no disrespect


checkmate

 

[IllmaticDelta]

@truth2you


all of them links, all the videos, all them media you have attached to this thread and throughout this website thecoli and old website SOHH for years and years has been completely debunked by the video below by Cholly Rock
it completely destroys everything you have been preaching for the pass decade or so


so can we finally put this mythical bullshyt revisionist history, that’s been spewing over the past couple of decade to rest
and let the truth be the truth
again no disrespect

no revision going on over here...you don't comprehend the forced distinction that hardcore bboys from the parks tried to place between themselves and the other people that inspired them who played in clubs and parks

DJ Eddie Cheeba & DJ Hollywood-The Disco Side of Hip Hop


DJ Eddie Cheeba & DJ Hollywood-The Disco Side of Hip Hop

and



and


"Dj Hollywood was the blueprint for the syncopated (rapping) style"

^^
Zulu Nation Says DJ Kool Herc Did Not Start Hip Hop And Is Misrepresenting The Culture - AllHipHop.com


A couple of interesting posts from Rahiem of Grandmaster Flash & The Furious 5, who came up in the Herc scene..




Now here is his take on how rapping started...

"Dancers that did a dance called the B-boying or that danced to Boioing music came directly from Kool Herc parties. Kool Herc's emcees didn't rhyme to the beat but they said catchy phrases that were adopted by emcees who expounded on what they were doing after Herc's emcees and then when emcees heard DJ Hollywood is when they began rhyming to the beat!" (confirmed by grandmaser caz in dj vlad interview)

.

.
and

dj's everywhere played breakbeats. For example

Some of the records that Flowers was known for playing include “Space Age” by the Jimmy Castor Bunch, “Sunnin’ And Funnin’ by MFSB, “Somebody’s Gotta Go” by Mike and Bill. “Touch and Go” by Ecstasy, Passion and Pain, “Changes” by Vernon Burch and “Messin’ With My Mind” by Labelle. Another favorite of his was the rock group Babe Ruth’s “The Mexican” (which would later become a hip hop staple as a breakbeat record and sample). He would mix that with James Brown material, and he was also known to on occasion, use three turntables simultaneously. (He would combine Chic’s “Good Times,” MFSB’s “Love Is The Message,” and Vaughan Mason and Crew’s “Bounce Skate Roll Bounce” for example.)

RAPAMANIA: GRANDMASTER FLOWERS AND THE MOBILE DJ MOVEMENT by Steven Stancell

Troy- I am surprised to hear that. O.K. I am going to throw out some names give me some feedback on them any way you like or as long as you like. First up Grand Master Flowers. Now what I have on Flowers is he darkened the labels on his records. Flowers also made you expand your music after you heard him play James Brown and Babe Ruth together.

Plummer- Oh yeah I thought that was cool. Flowers was different kind of mixer. You go into the gay clubs and they use to play a lot of hustle type dance music. They also played with the music with the highs and lows and mix with the sound effects and stuff. But they would not pull out the Funk, or they would not go into rock. Flowers was sort of like a Jimmy Hendrix he would do everything and you were always learning from him. But the thing about him is he played these games, he would darken his records and stuff. A lot of times we knew what it was and if we didn’t we would make it our business to find out. But it wasn’t a cut throat type of thing. He and I had a pretty good relationship, we didn’t ever sour our relationship. People would talk junk but we knew it was just that, junk. But you know between myself, Flowers, Maboya and Pete D.j. Jones you heard our names on the radio more than anyone else.

Troy- Alright tell me about that James Brown and Babe Ruth mix by Flowers.

Plummer- Yeah when Flowers played that I didn’t know who Babe Ruth and The Mexican jam was and so when I heard this high shrill voice and with this Spanish sort of sounding instruments in the back and I thought this was cool because it just blended so nicely and only Flowers would do something like that, at least at that time. Later on everybody else started doing stuff like that as well. So Flowers helped me because then I would play J Geils Band (Give It To Me), mix that into one of my records because it really had a great danceable break in it. I remember Loggins and Messina (Pathway to Glory) with an equally danceable break…I came from an R&B WBLS kind of back ground so I wasn’t really that hip to rock. Although I liked Jimi Hendrix I wouldn’t say I was a big Jimi Hendrix fan.

Old School Hip Hop Interviews - DJ Plummer | OldSchoolHipHop.Com

and

"We spun breaks back then too", Pete Jones says, "I played "Do it anyway you wanna," 'Scorpio', 'Bongo Rock', BT Express, Crown Heights Affair, Kool and the Gang, we played all of that stuff - and we'd keep the break going too. I played it all, disco, it didn't matter, there was no hip-hop per se back then, except for the parts we made up by spinning it over and over again."
There have been so many stories written about hip-hop's early days that have not reported on the guys that spun in Manhattan and Brooklyn in the early and mid '70's, that many crucial deejays of that time feel left out.
"Kool Herc and guys like that didn't have a big reputation back then", explains Jones, "they were in the Bronx - we, meaning guys like myself and Flowers, we played everywhere, so we were known. Their crowd was anywhere between 4 to 70. Mine was 18-22. They played in parks - where anybody could go, no matter how old you are you could go to a park. We played in clubs."
With a sense of urgency Mr. Jones says, "I have to clear something up, many people think that we played disco - that's not true. There were two things happening in black music at that time: there was the "Hustle" type music being played - which was stuff like Van McCoy's "Do the Hustle" - I couldn't stand that record. And then there were the funky type records that mixed the Blues and jazz with Latin percussion that would later be called funk. Well, hip-hop emerged from that."
He places special emphasis on the word 'emerged'. He says that because "If you know anything about the history of music, you know, no one person created anything, it 'emerges' from different things.

RAPAMANIA: KOOL HERC VS PETE DJ JONES By Mark Skillz

 

[KillSpray]

@truth2you

my nikka
with all due respect
I have absolutely positively nothing against you
with that said

all of them links, all the videos, all them media you have attached to this thread and throughout this website thecoli and old website SOHH for years and years has been completely debunked by the video below by Cholly Rock
it completely destroys everything you have been preaching for the pass decade or so

The original Bboy broke down the relationship between disco and hip-hop and use the analogy of R&B to rock ‘n’ roll
he then took it to even another level with saying how the hell can you claim something when you didn’t want to have anything to do with it when it was birthed
and use the perfect analogy/comparison to a kid that’s born and the father not wanting to raise said kid ; teach said kid ; have anything to do with said kid..... thereafter two decades later, same said kid get drafted & signs that million dollar contract to the NBA : then outta the blue said biological father shows up saying **THATS MY SON**

so can we finally put this mythical bullshyt revisionist history, that’s been spewing over the past couple of decade to rest
and let the truth be the truth
again no disrespect


checkmate

I see your point, but I think at the end of the day, Cholly Rock couldn't even deny that hip-hop was clearly influenced by disco, funk and R&B. The whole "who started it" argument is mostly egotistical shyt anyway, because hip hop is a reinterpretation of existing material to begin with. Hip-hop is a collage culture, based on sampling and flipping pre-existing material, not just in the form of records, but in fashion and so on. So the culture always had a symbiotic relationship with everything around it.