Do we have a qb development problem

[Dzali OG]

I forget the QB...I think it was Brady or Roethlisberger who changed the league to where its the norm now that if a QB has more than 9 interceptions they're viewed as being turnover prone.

Go look at some Dan Marino stats. He only had like two seasons where his td/int ratio was like what we expect now. He had multiple seasons of 20 td and 20 ints.

In today's game he would be benched.

 

[DaPresident]

Yes and no, the most part of your argument i agree with,
I also agree linemen are usually just bigger than their comp, i see a lot of guys doing a lot of reaching off their base, shallow knee bend, bad use of hands, so when they get to the league and AD or max or JJ is in front them they finally going against an apex predator and it gets bad quick

I don’t think more practice time is needed these guys do football damn near year round, them extra hours aren’t preparing them any more than the individual and group (off the books) training they do

Sometimes you are just a guy or a stop gap and they know that

I get it, it’s a crapshoot. Some guys look and play like Tarzan in college but turn into Jane when they get to the big league…

Everything gets accelerated when you step up from HS…hard to find adequate training on fundamentals bc college and pro coaches got jobs on the line, so they looking for the guys who can come in with major talent and they develop that…

It’s basically sink or swim bc they expect certain levels of play, ain’t no time for full development.

 

[Stop_It_5]

It's a double edged sword, patience is definitely at an all-time low because of how easy it is to move off the rookie scale contract + how the 5th year option has to be decided on after year three. It's also never been easier to play QB, which is why referencing numbers from the 80s/90s/00s just doesn't correlate.

Roster support from the GM and coaching competence from the offensive staff all play a huge role but the cream ultimately rises.

 

[DropTopDoc]

It's a double edged sword, patience is definitely at an all-time low because of how easy it is to move off the rookie scale contract + how the 5th year option has to be decided on after year three. It's also never been easier to play QB, which is why referencing numbers from the 80s/90s/00s just doesn't correlate.

Roster support from the GM and coaching competence from the offensive staff all play a huge role but the cream ultimately rises.

That last part is really key

Archie knew what it was like to be a part of an organization that ain’t give no fukk, which was why he was big on the landing spots for his sons and making sure the organizations had plans and competencies

 

[DropTopDoc]

This is really the simplest answer and it's always been this way. Teams are always going to reach because the best QBs are rarely taken first overall.

Go back and look at 2017 mocks. Nobody had Mahomes rated that highly. I even saw one with Brad Kaaya and Deshone Kizer rated ahead of him; nevermind Trubisky and Watson.

Hurts and Purdy have been in the last two Super Bowls; Lamar has two MVPs; Josh Allen's been a beast; Dak Prescott, for all the jokes, has won a lot of games for the Cowboys. Brady was a sixth rounder; Rodgers was late first; Brees was a second; Flacco won a Super Bowl.

There's no rhyme or reason to it. Mahomes' success and to a lesser extent, Josh Allen's, will be the carrot on a stick in front of teams saying, "let's just get the kid with the physical tools and hope it works out." You just hope they become Mahomes/Allen and not Zach Wilson.

A lot of times your qbs that ends up being something aren’t from conventional powers
But i agree, the teams find out the system the qb is in, and don’t always bring that with them, or have an oc that can duplicate it, they then hope he blows up with out making sure there’s talent and good coaches to help them progress and drop bad habits

You guys have missed the issue. I'll give you a possibility to show what's happening. I'm going use basketball and Michael Jordan.

No one knew Mike would be the greatest of all time. He wasn't dominating at the collegiate level.

What happened is, he was drafted into the right situation for him. That being having a coach that allowed him to become what he is. He could've been drafted to a team where the coach forced him to be what that coach wanted him to be. And not allowed the leadership qualities to develop.

I'm sorry guys, but that's just chance! How many QBs had the tools but didn't make it? We must wonder if they got in the right situation and were allowed to develop, would things have turned out different?

Teams, owners, and fans no longer give players the chance to grow. Some exceptional guys come in ready to be mvp right off the bat (very few). Most need 3-5 years, a good supporting cast, and comfort with one system. We seem to think a guy is a bust if he isn't Mahomes. Nvm that if Mahomes wasn't paired with Reid but say a coach like Fisher who wants 3 yards and dust.

If Mahomes had a coach like Fisher who wants 3 yards and dust and game management, MAHOMES would have been benched as being too much of a gambler! Same thing for Manning.

It all comes down to chance and luck. All these guys have been playing football forever. It comes down to what situation they're placed in and how much time they're given

Mike had some funny coaching early on but you knew he was different, he was a one man show til he got help and a coach that showed him he had help
But the right system helps tremendously

Can the team be good enough and the coach just be garbage?


How many great coaches in the NFL had great QBs? How many coaches in the nba had superstar players? Now you have to have the argument of who was responsible for whos greatness.


If most great qbs are a product of a great coach,then its simply an issue of most coaches being mid or crap,and that reflecting in their QBs. If great Qbs are responsible for great coaches,then we can say theres a QB problem. I think most Qbs are probably a product of the system. While you have a few QBs who are the system. So essentially unless your a great coach who can make alot of qbs look serviceable through your scheming. Your looking for a diamond in the rough in every draft. And that QB who is the system,probably isnt in every draft.


And just because a guy is that type of qb who is the system,doesnt mean he cant be figured out and limited later down the line. So you might have a short window with that guy and hes stuck on a crappy team. Making the team look decent due to his overwhelming talent. Only to be figured out by the time the shytty team builds around him.

This is smart if the rest of the team were this understanding. Sure its probably smart to sit Fields while he develops,then his second contract will still be cheap during the period where he actually knows what hes doing. And you can build a team around him slowly during that period. But do you think the rest of the team wants to hear that if the starting qb is trash/mid? And the fanbase damn sure doesnt want to hear that. Letting them sit only really works if you already have a serviceable qb.

It’s a lot of trash coaches out there, and they don’t adapt to the qb, even if they sat fields for a year he’d still have time on his contract and the bears fans would be ok cuz it ain’t like we sat through trash before and still supported but where the bears fukked up, they let the old regime that was on their way out make an attempt to keep the clock going by getting a rookie despite several needs, then a new coach/gm that gutted the team and then they expect him to be good

 

[ReturnOfJudah]

This is nothing new. Spurrier's offense at Florida was throwing all over the place. But none of them couldn't do jack shyt in the league

 

[Osmar]

This is nothing new. Spurrier's offense at Florida was throwing all over the place. But none of them couldn't do jack shyt in the league

Yeah the transition from College to NFL has never been guaranteed

Finding more than 1-2 Bonafide starters in the draft has been rare, the exceptions make people think it happens every year:

1983
John Elway, Dan Marino, Jim Kelly

2004
Eli Manning, Ben Roethlisberger, Phillip Rivers


2020 is also a good year for QBs
Burrow, Herbert, Tua, Hurts

 

[malbaker86]

This is a great thread and to add to what everyone has said; teams need to be patient and not rush these green QB’s out there game one. They also need to do a better job in surrounding them with legit pkaymakers.


What Fields was surrounded with in Chicago was CRIMINAL

 

[BrehWyatt]

The "Franchise QB" is honestly the worst thing to ever happen to the NFL as far as team building and personnel evaluation.

An average qb in 1999 stats were way lower than average qb stats in 2022

And that's not because qbs have shorter leashes. In 2002 you could play defense in the NFL

If you're comparing the qb stats to qb stats back then and crying about teams giving up early, you really need to stop bs'ing.


Boo hoo. If you're failing in the best ever conditions to pass the ball in the pros....you shouldnt cry about development.

The only qb who has a case here is Trey Lance because he didn't even get a real chance to start.

All the he other qbs yall crying about were given multiple years to start and prove themselves.

Like who?

Like Zach Wilson, who was surrounded with nothing year one? Who had the team (which fell apart on offense when their rookie RB1 went down for the year) legitimately turn their back on him for a 3rd stringer who basically replicated Zach's play but with more yards because he refused to take blame for a 10-3 loss (he should have)? Who had no offensive line and has never had an offensive coach who could be considered average or better?

Like Sam Howell? Who basically got one year to show himself and ended up taking more sacks than anyone over that span and was constantly tasked with having to get 30+ points a game for a team that couldn't stop anything? That's a lot for a young QB and despite this, you still saw the flashes.

Like Mac Jones? Who was a Pro Bowler year one only for the Patriots to seemingly make it their mission to destroy all the promise he showed by not investing in weapons or getting better coaching? If ANYBODY deserved for the team to go all in around him, it was him.

I could go on, but just because teams aren't allowed to play defense on/hit the QB doesn't mean the conditions are optimal for success.

 

[DropTopDoc]

This is nothing new. Spurrier's offense at Florida was throwing all over the place. But none of them couldn't do jack shyt in the league

What if spurriers offense was easy for qbs and ocs never changed to fit any of them

 

[Remote]

Bruce Arians warned everyone about this years ago



Last month, Kurt Warner


And then add that they're getting no help at the pro level, and there's a reason you're seeing bad qb play

I'll preface this by saying...yes, it's still too early to give up on Caleb Williams.

Still, it's worth giving credit to Bruce Arians, Kurt Warner and @holidayinn21 for calling this out in the beginning.

 

[DropTopDoc]

I'll preface this by saying...yes, it's still too early to give up on Caleb Williams.

Still, it's worth giving credit to Bruce Arians, Kurt Warner and @holidayinn21 for calling this out in the beginning.

Caleb’s biggest issue he was given too much freedom, and he has this notion that it can work rather than fail, he’s gotta reign in some of his throws, we need a competent qb coach and oc, I’d take Caldwell

 

[Crude]

Most of these QBs get drafted by shyt organizations that don’t build around them with a good o-line and complimentary players at skill positions along with quality coaching.

Then when the front office is putting pressure on coaches to produce wins they aren’t sticking with any guy that’s not getting the job done beyond a season or two although it’s usually even less.

You put a new guy out there with a team that has glaring needs on the o-line and at skill positions, it’s a recipe for disaster and getting your young QB into bad habits.

These guys don’t have time to develop like that. More teams should look at the Packers formula with their QBs, draft a guy and let him sit at least a couple of seasons behind a veteran before you put him out to the wolves. They did that with Jordan Love and they also did it with Aaron Rodgers before him. Even Mahomes sat behind Alex Smith a season or two. Same for Brady, if Drew Bledsoe never gets hurt who knows if things would have played out the same for Brady.

A lot of these coaches and front offices want immediate return on their investment though and it doesn’t work like that and they end up ruining these young guys and moving on from them after a season or two.

 

[Straw Hat Luffy]

I'll preface this by saying...yes, it's still too early to give up on Caleb Williams.

Still, it's worth giving credit to Bruce Arians, Kurt Warner and @holidayinn21 for calling this out in the beginning.

The fact that you got to preface this for a guy who’s only played about 7 games is wild. It should be common sense to let players develop

First take got people minds fried

 

[Remote]

Caleb’s biggest issue he was given too much freedom, and he has this notion that it can work rather than fail, he’s gotta reign in some of his throws, we need a competent qb coach and oc, I’d take Caldwell

You would expect things to improve in the 2nd half.

The numbers don't bear it out yet, but Rome Odunze is a talented WR and I think as they move in his direction, and away from Keenan Allen, it would help Caleb to lean on him more often.