You damn right it matters and Bron got jerked that year
It matters because when people wanna have these stupid Bron/MJ debates the fact that Jordan got DPOY and Bron didn't is brought up as one of the negatives
Dirk says Lebron passes MJ when he becomes the all-time scorer
- Thread starter HandyWithTheSteel
- Start date
It matters because when people wanna have these stupid Bron/MJ debates the fact that Jordan got DPOY and Bron didn't is brought up as one of the negatives
JJ Barea officially becomes the greatest defensive player of all time
shyt like this is why he won’t ever be a damn GOAT
can’t help but
at the same time thinking of those finals
Bron ain't better than MJ and never will be. Watching the 2 of them play I can say Bron is an all-time great but the only thing I can give Bron is size. Skill for skill relative to position Jordan got it. Too many years Lebron wasn't even considered the best in his own era, people forget about Steph having people forgetting about Bron, then you had DWade, Kobe, KD, and now Giannis, Ja so forth. When MJ hit his prime nobody could argue anybody was as good as he was. LeBron has consistency and longevity which is nothing to sneeze at, he's an all time great, just not the best ever.Devil Plisken…CMS
Veteran
I'll give it a go:
- 2 less rings: 2015 (lost his 2nd - 3rd best players) & 2017-2018 (Golden State with KD). 2011 as well, but we all know that ad nauseam.
- 2 finals MVPs: see above.
- 1 DPOY: he was robbed in 2012(?).
- 1 Regular season MVP: He gave considerably less effort in the regular seasons from 2015-2018. That was even a common talking point back then.
- All-defensive 1st teams: see above. Additionally, having a prime Kawhi and PG playing at your exact position is...do I have to say more
? Also, we need to have a serious talk about MJ being named to defensive first teams when he wasn't primarily guarding the other team's best perimeter player on a nightly basis. That's like your co-worker getting continuously promoted for completing side projects while you're stuck at the same position you've been at
. Either the defenders at the guard spots were over-rated, or MJ was Kobe before Kobe and was named to these teams just because of who he was.
- 9 scoring titles: Bron just wasn't as lethal of a scorer. Not much needs to be said. We all know that one.
- 3 steals titles: MJ was a much more active and disruptive on-ball defender.
- 2 slam dunk titles: ....why is this even on here
?
That Would Coulda Shoulda type shyt
Dog Mike didn't have Bron's versatility as a defender. Peak for peak it isn't close. Bron was often guarding multiple threats throughout a game or series, from the opp's best ball handler, to best scorer, to best big. And he was doing this with effect, Mike was never on this level...
Bron was a linebacker calling the plays on defense, his versatility and defensive skillset allowed him to anchor a variety of different coverages, and there were elite defensive units fielded around Bron's dexterity as a jack-of-all-trades defender. No ELITE defensive unit ever featured Michael Jordan as the centerpiece, ever. When paired with other great defenders and a real anchor he could excel...
Mike wasn't calling no plays, wasn't guarding the best player on the other team and certainly wasn't taking multiple assignments in one game with any regularity. Mike was not a rim deterrent, his athleticism gave him a spark in transition but in the half court he was not a threat at the rim. Mike was a gambler who played in an era where defensive metrics were less sophisticated. Defensive basketball was less understood, period. He was a good defender, strong, decent hands, played in position well, but his defense overall is overrated...
I ain't gon lie, only about 20% of that is true. Bron could guard more positions because he is bigger, simple as that. Bron is not out there guarding no point rd or shooting guard for any extended amount of time. Look at ho how Kobe did him every time bron guarded him, and would you put 6'6 shooting guard on a power forward or center, that's dumb. Jordan guarded the best player plenty of times but if Pippen could do it and MJ can get 30 why not? Mj is the all time leader in blocks and steals(3rd all time) for shooting guards, as a shooting guard that's pretty good to be as offensive minded as he was. And he absolutely was a beast in the half court. If anything his defense is underrated because people think Pippen was always the main defender. They both were, just like people think Magic was dogging Jordan so bad in the finals that Pippen took over and that wasn't true either.
Play over 6 years more
Have less championship
But obviously should have more stats
And u suppose to be the goat
He looks so nervous
They had zero reason to lose that series, actually was expected to beat the brakes of them and they were doing that before he mentally fell apart
ALL TIME mental collapse
This dumb ass list of excusesI'll give it a go:
- 2 less rings: 2015 (lost his 2nd - 3rd best players) & 2017-2018 (Golden State with KD). 2011 as well, but we all know that ad nauseam.
- 2 finals MVPs: see above.
- 1 DPOY: he was robbed in 2012(?).
- 1 Regular season MVP: He gave considerably less effort in the regular seasons from 2015-2018. That was even a common talking point back then.
- All-defensive 1st teams: see above. Additionally, having a prime Kawhi and PG playing at your exact position is...do I have to say more
- 9 scoring titles: Bron just wasn't as lethal of a scorer. Not much needs to be said. We all know that one.
- 3 steals titles: MJ was a much more active and disruptive on-ball defender.
- 2 slam dunk titles: ....why is this even on here
fifth column
Superstar
No amount of stats at this point (20 years+) is gonna put Bron ahead of MJ. There are players nowadays(Luka, Russ with averaging triple doubles, Jokic etc..) that are doing even greater things. To be the goat your stats and accolades have to impact winning chips.
murksiderock
Superstar
These Bron stans never want to address this chasm in accomplishments.
Not to mention LeBron putting up points on a sub .500 team that isn't even the making the playoffs
He's just stat padding to pass Kareem
What is there to address? LeBron could've won two DPOYs, he was certainly robbed of one. He could've won 8 scoring titles (averaged 30 9x in regular and postseason) but scoring isn't his focus...
He actually won 4 MVPs in 5 years, which is more than Mike won in any 5 year stretch, and could have won it in '08, '11, and '18...
He's a better defensive player than Mike and All-Defensive selections were long recognized by smart basketball people as popularity awards. And slam dunk titles don't mean anything
...They played in different eras. They didn't rack all these accolades playing each other. Mike is the most decorated player in league history, no one else will ever rival that list of accomplishments...
I don't think for most of us it matters on a personal level. It just matters in the context of talking sports, the same way it doesn't really matter if your team makes the playoffs or not, or what coach got fired, or who the next hot thing is. Most people not invested on a personal level, but this is yhe sports part of The Coli, and it's a basketball-centric board. It only matters to that extent...
Most of us have careers and families that keep us busy throughout the day, we not thinking about this shyt until we jump on here and when we're off we got actual important shyt that takes up our time haha...
That said, I've long criticized the lack of consistent criteria when heads have this discussion. Its a sliding scale based on who people like most. It's cool to talk titles until you bring up Mike doesn't have the most, nor the most MVPs, nor did he dominate "his" era the most. Jordan riders hate the era argument (better competition) because it only benefits them when they want to shyt on The League being a 6-9 team league in the 60s...
For me, it's this, when comparing guys of different eras as most GOATs are, statistical arguments are the last thing of relevance because these guys of different eras weren't playing the same version of basketball. It's relevant to point out the numbers you put up AT THE TIME, in said era, but there is no time machine forward or backward that translates anyone's numbers to a different era. So we can talk about amazing statistical dominance relative to era but it really holds no weight if you're comparing a guy to someone who didn't come of age in the same era...
So the criteria starts with dominance, how did you dominate in your time? Statistical achievement is somewhere in there but the most relevant aspect of all sports is how you impact winning, which goes beyond Ws and Ls. There is no catch-all metric that pleases everyone but there are a couple that at least make sense. More importantly though, you gotta look at specific team circumstances, how a guy's team compared to the rest of the NBA, what he did with what he had (or lack thereof), and the most important aspect of playoff performance, does your game ascend or decline or remain linear in the postseason?
I apply this criteria to every great player. All the accolades matter too, but again, accolade measuring like ring or MVP counting is dangerous, so you have to have some measure with it. I'll say this, the greatest, greatest players ever all won multiple championships as the best player on a title team. That's a small fraternity, only 16 guys ever won multiple (2+) titles as a #1. And most of the greatest players win multiple (2+) MVPs, most of the greatest players have at least 6 Top 5 MVP finishes, which illustrates more than a half-decade as a Top 5 player...
Your performances in the playoffs, especially in later rounds, is significant to me. Who you do it against matters, too, and who you do it with matters. The Lakers 3peat in the early 00s is relevant because it was a rare 3peat, but these guys were not whipping up Gladiators in The Finals. Every title counts, but every title isn't win the same. Shaq shytting on Todd McCollough isn't the same as Hakeem putting up numbers on Shaq. The championships count the same, you can't asterisk em or take em back, but they don't hold the same weight...
I have a pretty long list of criteria, I can keep going, and I apply it uniformly. Most heads don't, and it is a problem in basketball discussion at large more than any other sport...
Kareem's scoring record will be spoken of more vs Bron going forward, as contrarians will want to debate whose scoring totals were more valuable. It didn't matter before now because LeBron's career was objectively more dominant than Kareem's, Kareem having the scoring title wasn't a factor...
Bron's imminent scoring title is only a present topic. Most of us who think he's the GOAT thought so years befire he got this close to it ('16 for me). We really don't give a fukk about it in conversation but it's a significant achievement. It's mostly Anti-Bron's with the, "he played forever for this longevity record" that opens convos, Bron heads aren't centering debates around the scoring record. He was GOATed to us way before now...