Dinesh D'Souza on Black failure

[NYC Rebel]

Outside of the stones throw away impoverished and uneducated Mexicans that can cross the border easier than others, I always laugh at the immigrant comparison to black Americans.

My pops who is NIgerian was educated in one of the most prestigious schools in the country. He doesn't represent the garden variety Nigerian. Yet he's indicative of all Nigerians (false) and should be aligned and weighed against the broad spectrum of African Americans here.

That makes no sense. I have a couple of African American friends who are living outside of the United States. One works for Toshiba, another is a teacher in Japan and one owns a liquor company in Ireland. Do you think THEY represent the average African American? Second of all, they outpace most of the locals in the countries they've moved to.

Seriously...it makes no sense comparing the best another country has to offer that makes it here to the lower tiers of society that already are here.

 

[Northern Son]

Most successful immigrants come here with college degrees and the financial support necessary to begin a proper life. The successful ones are already privileged from the get-go, in terms of both money and opportunity, compared to the average Black person.

Obviously, there's a cultural difference- most successful Asians come from cultures where academics are extremely important. But the ones who come here aren't just the ones who have benefited from that culture for generations. They have additional advantages. There's no way to properly analogize immigants and Black people.

This.

This chode D'Souza also clearly believes in the Teflon Theory of History.

Teflon Theory of History « Abagond

 

[theworldismine13]

Outside of the stones throw away impoverished and uneducated Mexicans that can cross the border easier than others, I always laugh at the immigrant comparison to black Americans.

My pops who is NIgerian was educated in one of the most prestigious schools in the country. He doesn't represent the garden variety Nigerian. Yet he's indicative of all Nigerians (false) and should be aligned and weighed against the broad spectrum of African Americans here.

That makes no sense. I have a couple of African American friends who are living outside of the United States. One works for Toshiba, another is a teacher in Japan and one owns a liquor company in Ireland. Do you think THEY represent the average African American? Second of all, they outpace most of the locals in the countries they've moved to.

Seriously...it makes no sense comparing the best another country has to offer that makes it here to the lower tiers of society that already are here.

i dont see how any of that changes what dinesh was saying, he was saying the attitude toward education in the black community has held us back, and that is true, nothing you have said is a counterpoint to that basic truth

i dont think the stories of immigrants should be used to insult black people, but the stories of immigrants and even non immigrants hold valuable lessons as to what black people need to do

i dont get a heart attack about dinesh because by my reading of history im realizing that ending or reducing racism, or enforcing civil rights doesnt build wealth, i think we have reached the limits of what reducing racism can do for black people

i only listen to people that are about building wealth and are about economic prosperity but i feel highly uncomfortable when somebody's plan for black wealth is getting white people to do something

 

[NYC Rebel]

i dont see how any of that changes what dinesh was saying, he was saying the attitude toward education in the black community has held us back, and that is true, nothing you have said is a counterpoint to that basic truth

i dont think the stories of immigrants should be used to insult black people, but the stories of immigrants and even non immigrants hold valuable lessons as to what black people need to do

i dont get a heart attack about dinesh because by my reading of history im realizing that ending or reducing racism, or enforcing civil rights doesnt build wealth, i think we have reached the limits of what reducing racism can do for black people

i only listen to people that are about building wealth and are about economic prosperity but i feel highly uncomfortable when somebody's plan for black wealth is getting white people to do something

I say its moreso the attitude towards our children from the education community that's a major issue. And no black person, whether from Africa, the Carribbean or here, are immune to it based on my experiences going to fukked up schools.

You honestly feel its a coincidence that black folks feelings about education coincided with integration?

I'm sorry, but the immigrant experience as it relates to black people is pretty retarded considering the pick of the litter from back home more often than not make it to these shores.

 

[theworldismine13]

I say its moreso the attitude towards our children from the education community that's a major issue. And no black person, whether from Africa, the Carribbean or here, are immune to it based on my experiences going to fukked up schools.

You honestly feel its a coincidence that black folks feelings about education coincided with integration?

i think its both, im not against fighting racism and all that stuff, but the actual attitude of black people toward education is something that needs to be corrected also

You honestly feel its a coincidence that black folks feelings about education coincided with integration?

im not really sure what this question means

I'm sorry, but the immigrant experience as it relates to black people is pretty retarded considering the pick of the litter from back home more often than not make it to these shores.

black people are not isolated from world history or from basic economic principles just becuase we came through slavery, im not aware of any history, in any part of the world, or at any time period that doesn't provide useful information to black people

if you are trying to say that the story of immigrants should not be used to insult black people than i agree

but its foolish and anti intellectual to suggest that black people cant learn from immigrants

lets say immigrants are pick of the litter, how is immigrants being the pick of the litter not useful information to black people in america? you are going off the deep end, you are so desperate to protect black emotions that you are implying things that make no sense

even if immigrants are pick of the litter they still provide good information and good examples about how to build wealth in this country, and some immigrants do not build wealth, they also provide useful information and examples

but what dinesh said is true, black attitudes toward education have held back black people and for black people to start building wealth we have to reform attitudes toward education

 

[NYC Rebel]

i think its both, im not against fighting racism and all that stuff, but the actual attitude of black people toward education is something that needs to be corrected also



im not really sure what this question means



black people are not isolated from world history or from basic economic principles just becuase we came through slavery, im not aware of any history, in any part of the world, or at any time period that doesn't provide useful information to black people

if you are trying to say that the story of immigrants should not be used to insult black people than i agree

but its foolish and anti intellectual to suggest that black people cant learn from immigrants

lets say immigrants are pick of the litter, how is immigrants being the pick of the litter not useful information to black people in america? you are going off the deep end, you are so desperate to protect black emotions that you are implying things that make no sense

even if immigrants are pick of the litter they still provide good information and good examples about how to build wealth in this country, and some immigrants do not build wealth, they also provide useful information and examples

but what dinesh said is true, black attitudes toward education have held back black people and for black people to start building wealth we have to reform attitudes toward education

I think there's a stark rise in disinterest in education once blacks allowed other folks with their lowered expectations of us to come in an teach them.

This attitude you speak of towards education came into being after integration. The two coincide for a clear reason. While you may downplay it, its pretty clear that racism plays a bigger role than you're willing to acknowledge.

 

[MeachTheMonster]

but what dinesh said is true, black attitudes toward education have held back black people and for black people to start building wealth we have to reform attitudes toward education

But it's not true, it's only part of the story at best. If "black attitudes" torward education was holding us back, we wouldn't have ever increasing high school and college graduation rates. This "black people don't care about education" narative is just not true. Black people of all walks of life value education. SOME black people don't value education, but that's not "black" culture it's "poor" culture. Poor whites, Latinos, Asian, and everybody in between have the same problems when it comes to education. Furthermore a persons attitude torward education doesn't matter if the educational opportunities are just not there. A good attitude torward school doesn't matter if you don't have books to learn from.

So at best the "black people's attitudes torward education" narative is only a small part of the bigger picture.

 

[NYC Rebel]

But it's not true, it's only part of the story at best. If "black attitudes" torward education was holding us back, we wouldn't have ever increasing high school and college graduation rates. This "black people don't care about education" narative is just not true. Black people of all walks of life value education. SOME black people don't value education, but that's not "black" culture it's "poor" culture. Poor whites, Latinos, Asian, and everybody in between have the same problems when it comes to education. Furthermore a persons attitude torward education doesn't matter if the educational opportunities are just not there. A good attitude torward school doesn't matter if you don't have books to learn from.

So at best the "black people's attitudes torward education" narative is only a small part of the bigger picture.

For real. You'd swear we're seeing numbers decrease rather than increase.

 

[theworldismine13]

I think there's a stark rise in disinterest in education once blacks allowed other folks with their lowered expectations of us to come in an teach them.

This attitude you speak of towards education came into being after integration. The two coincide for a clear reason. While you may downplay it, its pretty clear that racism plays a bigger role than you're willing to acknowledge.

thats an interesting theory, ive never heard that before honestly, i certainly wouldnt rule out it out, integration certainly had some negative side effects

as many people have said and also dinesh mentioned in the video, before segregation the black lawyer and the black doctor lived on the same block as the black janitors or maids, so the children of the uneducated got exposed to higher educated blacks, desegregation broke that link so the blacks that had a culture of education end up separated from the blacks who are not educated or dont value education as much

but as far as your theory, for one it doesnt negate the fact the immigrants provide useful information to black people, second it might explain black under performance in integrated schools but it wouldnt explain black under performance in black schools which there are plenty of

and how do you propose addressing it? even under your own theory it would still end up that black people needing to change their attitude toward education, unless of course you are willing to wait until white people stop being racist, you can also do that

im not denying racism or oppression, i think both those things have hurt black people a lot, but i think its possible to create wealth under those circumstances if we develop the proper tools, and customs and cultures and i dont see anything wrong with studying immigrants groups or any other group to get ideas on how to develop wealth

and i dont think fighting racism and oppression are economic plans, i think if we do not develop the right customs and cultures, the removal of racism will have marginal impact on wealth development

 

[NYC Rebel]

thats an interesting theory, ive never heard that before honestly, i certainly wouldnt rule out it out, integration certainly had some negative side effects

as many people have said and also dinesh mentioned in the video, before segregation the black lawyer and the black doctor lived on the same block as the black janitors or maids, so the children of the uneducated got exposed to higher educated blacks, desegregation broke that link so the blacks that had a culture of education end up separated from the blacks who are not educated or dont value education as much

but as far as your theory, for one it doesnt negate the fact the immigrants provide useful information to black people, second it might explain black under performance in integrated schools but it wouldnt explain black under performance in black schools which there are plenty of

and how do you propose addressing it? even under your own theory it would still end up that black people needing to change their attitude toward education, unless of course you are willing to wait until white people stop being racist, you can also do that

im not denying racism or oppression, i think both those things have hurt black people a lot, but i think its possible to create wealth under those circumstances if we develop the proper tools, and customs and cultures and i dont see anything wrong with studying immigrants groups or any other group to get ideas on how to develop wealth

and i dont think fighting racism and oppression are economic plans, i think if we do not develop the right customs and cultures, the removal of racism will have marginal impact on wealth development

I think there needs to be a clear change in attitude regarding the people teaching our kids. I've mentioned before that my wife's nephew attended Eagle Academy in Brownsville. As a matter of fact, they filmed this video in the school's schoolyard.

[ame="http://youtu.be/KaJPs0ev3UQ?t=2m56s"]Smoothe Da Hustler ft. Trigga The Gambler - Broken Language (Uncut) - YouTube[/ame]



And that school is churning out nothing but top notch students ever since they climate of the teaching changed. My nephew is now at a boarding school in upstate NY, he did so well at Eagle.

I'm a firm believer that when kids are being educated by people who expect them to do well, they'll succeed.

I had a teacher try to give my daughter a high grade years back when I just won custody of my girls and was between schools....just because she "behaved well" although I knew personally that she was struggling. The poor expectations of her behavior and her overcoming it meant more to that teacher than actually teaching her. Of course....I got her out of that school a month later.

 

[theworldismine13]

But it's not true, it's only part of the story at best. If "black attitudes" torward education was holding us back, we wouldn't have ever increasing high school and college graduation rates. This "black people don't care about education" narative is just not true. Black people of all walks of life value education. SOME black people don't value education, but that's not "black" culture it's "poor" culture. Poor whites, Latinos, Asian, and everybody in between have the same problems when it comes to education. Furthermore a persons attitude torward education doesn't matter if the educational opportunities are just not there. A good attitude torward school doesn't matter if you don't have books to learn from.

So at best the "black people's attitudes torward education" narative is only a small part of the bigger picture.

i dont know what stats you are looking at but i think i already talked about this in another thread, compared to other ethnic groups black people have lower high school graduation rates and lower college attendance rates

saying blacks have ever increasing hs and college grad rates doesnt mean much because its starting from a low point anyway

and i think you are wrong, your attitude toward education creates opportunities, and a good attitude toward education does matter even if you dont have books or go to a bad school

you can call it a poor culture if you want and yeah it does apply to other groups too, it wouldn't change anything im saying, i still say people that have "poor culture" can learn from immigrants and i would still say its their culture that is holding them back

 

[theworldismine13]

I think there needs to be a clear change in attitude regarding the people teaching our kids. I've mentioned before that my wife's nephew attended Eagle Academy in Brownsville. As a matter of fact, they filmed this video in the school's schoolyard.

Smoothe Da Hustler ft. Trigga The Gambler - Broken Language (Uncut) - YouTube



And that school is churning out nothing but top notch students ever since they climate of the teaching changed.

I'm a firm believer that when kids are being educated by people who expect them to do well, they'll succeed.

I had a teacher try to give my daughter a high grade years back when I just won custody of my girls and was between schools....just because she "behaved well" although I knew personally that she was struggling. The poor expectations of her behavior and her overcoming it meant more to that teacher than actually teaching her. Of course....I got her out of that school a month later.

thats an interesting anecdote, but what's your point? eagle academy is not a counterpoint to what dinesh said and its not a counterpoint to using successful immigrants as an example, its not a counterpoint to the assertion that culture is key

eagle academy is a testament that black people need to support charter schools and we need to abandon the former public school system

 

[NYC Rebel]

thats an interesting anecdote, but what's your point? eagle academy is not a counterpoint to what dinesh said and its not a counterpoint to using successful immigrants as an example, its not a counterpoint to the assertion that culture is key

eagle academy is testament that black people need to support charter schools and we need to abandon the former public school system

I'm not ready to support something where only 17% of the schools perform better than public schools.

I will say this....piecing together things, I'm really starting to get annoyed by the apathetic nature of the Black Middle and Upper Class. I just did an interview with a Professor who finished a study where low income blacks were the most likely group to vote in election. Middle and upper income blacks were THE LEAST. It's perplexing looking at the lack of initiative from middle and upper income blacks, more interested in having Amen corner sessions about how low income blacks are fukking up while doing nothing collectively themselves.

So I mos def see some of your point.

And please....I'm not wrong. You can have the best attitude towards education, pass with flying colors and still come out of some of these schools as a functional illiterate.

 

[MeachTheMonster]

i dont know what stats you are looking at but i think i already talked about this in another thread, compared to other ethnic groups black people have lower high school graduation rates and lower college attendance rates

Stop comparing us to other races. On one hand you say black people need to distance, and support themselves, without worrying about white people but every chance you get you're comparing us to white people. Compare us to ourselves and you will see how our educational performance has been constantly increasing. We couldn't be improving our educational accomplishments if we didn't care about school.

saying blacks have ever increasing hs and college grad rates doesnt mean much because its starting from a low point anyway

Yes it means a lot, it means that we do take our educations seriously.

and i think you are wrong, your attitude toward education creates opportunities, and a good attitude toward education does matter even if you dont have books or go to a bad school

What opportunities could a poor kid provide for himself by thinking fondly of his fukked up school and teachers? Ceiling leaking, no books, teacher doesn't care, no extra curricular activities. But this little poor boy is gonna blaze a path for himself.

It is posible but not probable.

You like to compare us to white folks, well they don't have to fight through all of those obstacles, so even if the little white boy has a bad attitude torward school, opportunities and support are handed to him on a silver plater so he will still do enough to make a decent living.

you can call it a poor culture if you want and yeah it does apply to other groups too, it wouldn't change anything im saying, i still say people that have "poor culture" can learn from immigrants and i would still say its their culture that is holding them back

It does matter because when you attribute it to "black" culture you imply that it's something thats tied to skin color which isn't true.

 

[NYC Rebel]

Stop comparing us to other races. On one hand you say black people need to distance, and support themselves, without worrying about white people but every chance you get you're comparing us to white people. Compare us to ourselves and you will see how our educational performance has been constantly increasing. We couldn't be improving our educational accomplishments if we didn't care about school.


Yes it means a lot, it means that we do take our educations seriously.


What opportunities could a poor kid provide for himself by thinking fondly of his fukked up school and teachers? Ceiling leaking, no books, teacher doesn't care, no extra curricular activities. But this little poor boy is gonna blaze a path for himself.

It is posible but not probable.

You like to compare us to white folks, well they don't have to fight through all of those obstacles, so even if the little white boy has a bad attitude torward school, opportunities and support are handed to him on a silver plater so he will still do enough to make a decent living.


It does matter because when you attribute it to "black" culture you imply that it's something thats tied to skin color which isn't true.

Let me tell you something bruh....my life changed by the simple grabbing of my arm from a guidance counselor who insisted that I enter the school and got me a sit down with the principal my senior year.

My first HS for three years was featured in Jonathan Kozol's "SAvage Inequalities" and also with the movie Sunset Park. I was on the honor roll, bust my ass, yet still lagging behind until I got into the High my senior year (plus...they had a football team which opened the door to my athletic scholarship!!!) I had to lie to get into the school, telling them my mother was going to Nigeria for a year and I was moving in with my cousin up the street from the school. They initially denied me, but Ms Humphries insisted that I sit down with the Principal (RIP Mr. Mickens) who got me into the school. Her grabbing my arm changed my entire life.

The problem is...we don't have enough arms reaching out to kids that are worth it.