Dinesh D'Souza on Black failure

theworldismine13

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You are making an emotional argument --- its conservative emotion at play here, where you are trying to minimize the effect of the American socio-economic environment as a culprit in individual black success rates.

what exactly is a "conservative emotion" and is that suppose to be a bad thing? but yeah i am downplaying the role of "socio economic forces" (whatever that means) and focusing on the role of culture, i dont really think there is much more the government can do as far as ending racism and i dont think reducing racism is the key to black success

You claim to be a "facts and figures" guy, correct? Well, you should know that people overwhelmingly stay in the same relative socio-economic strata in which he or she was born. Rich stay rich --- middle class stay middle class, etc.

and what is that suppose to mean as far as black people, that black people are destined to be poor?

Facts and figures will inform you that success is built upon stimulation, not deprivation. Considering that the average wealth of black families is somewhere around 5% of whites, well, a hypothesis forms. This isnt even including centuries of legalized and structural discrimination. If you want to be taken serious as an intellectual, you cant pick and choose the variables analyzed in order to draw conclusions. Thats lazy.

yeah and those legalized and structural discrimination were focused in the beginning on education starting with laws forbidding slaves to be educated, i think the problem is that you are taking all those "structures" and putting them in one lump and thinking they all had the same impact, that is where you are being lazy, the reality is that what is important is education, imo everything comes down to that, it doesnt come down to whether white people like you or hire you
 

MeachTheMonster

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i didnt say i dont go into communities to help, i actually do tutoring, and from what i see the lack of emphasis in education comes from the parent and other black people, imo black people are shaping black people's culture, when somebody says education is a waste im 90 percent sure they got that notion from another black person

My question is where did black folks get that notion from? How can we change that notion if the things that created that notion are still prevalent?

so my point i try to get accross you can believe in what people tell you or you can believe in reality and in facts and figures
Most times facts and figures on paper are not a good indication of the truth. You can find a statistic to prove any point but reality usualy differs from what the raw numbers suggest.

you mentioned your cousin cant count to 10, why is that? children learn to to count from their parents, children get their vocabulary from their parents, so fundamentally your cousin's education or lack thereof is because of the black people in her life

as ive made it clear im 1000 for structural changes to the public school system but fundamentally black people are responsible for the education of black children
My cousins mom is on drugs, and she was raised by her grandparents who made a decent living for themselves but they aren't very educated and have no idea how to navigate the modern school system. My cousin is lucky because she has someone such as myself to take her in and help her. Most poor little black kids don't have that support, so I see no point in trying to tell them to change their ways, when the things that shaped their ways haven't changed.
 

Hiphoplives4eva

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I think this marriage thing has a lot to do with it.

"During Reconstruction and up until the 1940s, 75% to 85% of black children lived in two-parent families. Today, more than 70% of black children are born to single women." - Quote from Article

Even though racial discrimination is less of a problem today, we are collectively sliding downhill.

I don't think you can have a great society without marriage and commitment.

"The slowest growing animal of them all, the human, which takes longest to reach maturity and requires two years to develop sufficient teeth with which to chew solid foods, should have the longest nursing period of them all." - Quote from Book

Since human babies take a long time to reach maturity compared to other animals, monogamous relationships is more important to the survival of the child/race/species for humans.

This is even more important for people in colder climates than it is for those who live in warm climates. It was important for men to bring food home, since the woman couldn't raise a child and hunt. Survival is probably one of the reasons penguins are monogamous.

In places where food grows easily(warmer climates) and is found easily by foraging, the importance of the father wouldn't be as critical and he could probably afford to have more than one wife.

I once read that it was the norm for men in Africa to have more than one wife. So, I don't think black men are culturally adapted to long term monogamous marriages. I think monogamy was more important for white people in the past, it was required for the survival of the race.

Today I believe the survival of our race depends on monogamous marriages.
White people are starting to see themselves the effect single parent households have on children with the divorce rate at 50%. In 20 years they will be talking about how it contributed to their disintegration.

When you say in Africa it is more common for a man to have multiple wives your absolutely right, but I don't think you understand black African culture. That African with multiple wives is at home raising all those kids and women in the same household. This is nothing like the "baby daddy" phenomenon that currently exists in America. Kids from polygamous families in Nigeria do just as well as those from monogamous relationships in Africa.

The reason why the blacks seem to be regressing as a people is a "wicked combination of "hood rich mentality", broken homes, and the high incarceration rate of African American males. These are ills that don't really affect immigrants in high numbers, largely due the focus on strong family structure, education, and upwards mobility you see in immigrant households.
 

MeachTheMonster

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yea i know , that's why i didn't say they make $2 Nigerien dollars, look at the GNI which is adjusted and converted to the U.S dollar , yearly income for the average Nigerian is $1,280 in 2011, that's a year not per month

Nigeria | Data


and No poverty in america is no where near as bad as poverty anywhere else in the world, this is census date to back it up

What is Poverty in the United States: Air Conditioning, Cable TV and an Xbox

The definition of poverty may be different. Yes some people considered impoverished in America would be considered well off in other countries. But starving is starving no matter what country you are from. There are kids in America who are going though trashcans looking for food and clothes. There are kids and adults living on the street. My point is a person can live way better off $2 in other counties because the structure is differnt. They can hunt, farm, fish, trade for food. If a poor person in America has $2 to feed their kids they will starve. A person in Nigeria with that same $2 can live and still find a way to feed their family.
 
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When you say in Africa it is more common for a man to have multiple wives your absolutely right, but I don't think you understand black culture. That African with multiple wives is at home raising all those kids and women in the same household. This is nothing like the "baby daddy" phenomenon that currently exists in America. Kids from polygamous families in Nigeria do just as well as those from monogamous relationships in Africa.

The reason why the blacks seem to be regressing as a people is a "wicked combination of "hood rich mentality", broken homes, and the high incarceration rate of African American males. These are ills that don't really affect immigrants in high numbers, largely due the focus on strong family structure, education, and upwards mobility you see in immigrant households.

When I said he could afford to have more than one wife, I meant afford as in the ability to provide for more than one wife. I didn't know they all lived in the same house though. :dwillhuh:

I don't think that would work in America, since the cost of raising children is so high. Also, I think children here need the attention of two parents focused solely on them. When you add in half-brothers and half-sisters as well as more than one wife, I think it spells trouble in this society.

This may not be a problem in a more agrarian society, but modern society puts limits on how many kids (and wives) 1 man can feed.

So while this may not be a impediment elsewhere it would be one here.
 

theworldismine13

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My question is where did black folks get that notion from? How can we change that notion if the things that created that notion are still prevalent?


Most times facts and figures on paper are not a good indication of the truth. You can find a statistic to prove any point but reality usualy differs from what the raw numbers suggest.


My cousins mom is on drugs, and she was raised by her grandparents who made a decent living for themselves but they aren't very educated and have no idea how to navigate the modern school system. My cousin is lucky because she has someone such as myself to take her in and help her. Most poor little black kids don't have that support, so I see no point in trying to tell them to change their ways, when the things that shaped their ways haven't changed.

sorry to hear about that, but fundamentally i think your cousin and her kids problems comes down to education and attitude toward education

here is the point that im getting at, if your little cousin went to a good school, where the teachers cared and she had books etc etc, your little cousin would still be behind other kids whose parents taught them how to count and how to read at home, and that would still come to culture she got from black people

in this society and in every other society education equals wealth, so therefore you little cousin will be behind other students in wealth because education is the key to building wealth

second i wouldnt support putting more money into the school she attends to me its not clear to me how that would help if you keep the same system, they way to do it " get her counting and reading" is to switch schools or close the school and have a new school system that takes into account that nobody reads to her and nobody has taught her how to count to ten

but ultimately if there is a black child that cant count to ten or cant read that is black people's fault, i dont see how we can put that on anybody else, i think that is a sign that we need to make changes
 

MeachTheMonster

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then if its american culture that is doing it, then black people have to seperate themselves from american culture
The only way to do that is to move away, and become immigrants to somewhere else.



i would strongly disagree that if a family changes their attitude toward education that it wouldnt make a difference, i would say that is the only difference that even matters, once a family or we change our culture to focus on education then that is 90 percent of what needs to be done, everything else is just little stuff
How could it make a difference? If the kids don't have quality schools, their parents don't have quality education, and they are still hungry therefore attracted to crime. How does convincing them to go to school help?

If all the things that created the culture are still there. How does changing a family today, help families in the future?

Wouldn't it make more sense to fix the problems that created to culture, so that the culture could fix itself today and in the future?

you are saying that bad education comes from poverty and you think that government can eliminate that poverty, its not that direct


ultimately the government cannot create jobs and create wealth, government can only create the environment (structures) to give people the opportunity to create wealth and create jobs

government can give you access to education, but those are the limits, ultimately its on the community take advantage of the opportunities and to create wealth the government cannot
I never said that the goverment could eliminate poverty. I said those of us that want to help should start with addressing the things that cause the bad culture and poverty is one of them. We need to share wealth within our own communities, we need to fight for better schools. We need to provide opportunities for our own people to pull themselves out of poverty. Simply telling them to get their shyt together will do absolutely nothing.

i agree that parents are uneducated and that is why i said we need a new public school system, with a whole different structure, culture and perspective, the current public school system assumes that parents are educated and help kids with their homework and reads to them at night, we need a new education system that deals with parents that dont, cant or wont do things like that

I agree to me this is most important. In my opinion it's a more achievable goal to change the school systems and give people educational opportunities, than it is to tell people to change their ways while ignoring what gave them their ways.
 

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I think this marriage thing has a lot to do with it.

"During Reconstruction and up until the 1940s, 75% to 85% of black children lived in two-parent families. Today, more than 70% of black children are born to single women." - Quote from Article

Even though racial discrimination is less of a problem today, we are collectively sliding downhill.

I don't think you can have a great society without marriage and commitment.

"The slowest growing animal of them all, the human, which takes longest to reach maturity and requires two years to develop sufficient teeth with which to chew solid foods, should have the longest nursing period of them all." - Quote from Book

Since human babies take a long time to reach maturity compared to other animals, monogamous relationships is more important to the survival of the child/race/species for humans.

This is even more important for people in colder climates than it is for those who live in warm climates. It was important for men to bring food home, since the woman couldn't raise a child and hunt. Survival is probably one of the reasons penguins are monogamous.

In places where food grows easily(warmer climates) and is found easily by foraging, the importance of the father wouldn't be as critical and he could probably afford to have more than one wife.

I once read that it was the norm for men in Africa to have more than one wife. So, I don't think black men are culturally adapted to long term monogamous marriages. I think monogamy was more important for white people in the past, it was required for the survival of the race.

Today I believe the survival of our race depends on monogamous marriages.

White people are starting to see for themselves the effect single parent households have on children with the national divorce rate at 50%. In 20 years they will be talking about how it contributed to their disintegration.

I also think the generational welfare system has contributed to this. I'm not opposed to getting help from the government if you need it but when you have generations upon generation on welfare, the incentive to work is gone. Which means you spend more time getting in trouble than NOT getting in trouble. You can spend all day gangbanging and still find a place to sleep...

Marriage was suppose to be a man and a woman get together, work to provide shelter for themselves and their family.

Well if the government is going to provide me and my family shelter..why should I work to take care of family?

Most black men are raised by single mothers so the need to commit is not there plus there was no strong father figure in their life to keep them in check. These youngins grow up thinking they are not accountable to anyone till they get a job, then the reality sets once they find out accountability is part of life :ohhh:


Black folks need to get the marriage rate up before we start complaining about white folks and what they have done to us.

Poverty among married people is very low even in some states non-existent because of dual income.
I gurantee you , over 60% of the issues in the black community will disappear if we can get a 60-70% marriage rate...
 

theworldismine13

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The definition of poverty may be different. Yes some people considered impoverished in America would be considered well off in other countries. But starving is starving no matter what country you are from. There are kids in America who are going though trashcans looking for food and clothes. There are kids and adults living on the street. My point is a person can live way better off $2 in other counties because the structure is differnt. They can hunt, farm, fish, trade for food. If a poor person in America has $2 to feed their kids they will starve. A person in Nigeria with that same $2 can live and still find a way to feed their family.

:laugh: nah you are wrong, $2 means $2, of course you can live off $2 a day, technically you can live off $0 a day if you do it right

but the standard of living of people in third world countries is a few AMERICAN dollars a day, that is just as bad as it sounds
 

MeachTheMonster

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sorry to hear about that, but fundamentally i think your cousin and her kids problems comes down to education and attitude toward education

here is the point that im getting at, if your little cousin went to a good school, where the teachers cared and she had books etc etc, your little cousin would still be behind other kids whose parents taught them how to count and how to read at home, and that would still come to culture she got from black people
True, but she'd have the tools for change. It would be impossible but even if I could get her mother to start caring about her education, she still has no books or teachers who give a damn. Her mom can't teach her what she needs to know so even with a better attitude about education shed still be destined for failure. On the other hand if she goes to a good school, she can make the decision to better herself on her own. With books and teachers that motivate she can improve herself and decide on her own that school is important.

in this society and in every other society education equals wealth, so therefore you little cousin will be behind other students in wealth because education is the key to building wealth
I agree, I just don't think telling people :ufdup: go to school will change that.

second i wouldnt support putting more money into the school she attends to me its not clear to me how that would help if you keep the same system, they way to do it " get her counting and reading" is to switch schools or close the school and have a new school system that takes into account that nobody reads to her and nobody has taught her how to count to ten

but ultimately if there is a black child that cant count to ten or cant read that is black people's fault, i dont see how we can put that on anybody else, i think that is a sign that we need to make changes
I agree I will be pulling her out of that school and putting her in the same school as my daughter, it's a very good public charter school. My thing is most kids don't have a parent or cousin to make these decisions for them so they are stuck in their local school no matter what. We need to work on strengthening those schools because inevitably students will have to go there, and the more we concentrate on alternative schooling, the more we leave those kids behind.

And I'm not trying to "put that on anyone else" I'm talking about fixing the problem not placing blame.
 

MeachTheMonster

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:laugh: nah you are wrong, $2 means $2, of course you can live off $2 a day, technically you can live off $0 a day if you do it right

but the standard of living of people in third world countries is a few AMERICAN dollars a day, that is just as bad as it sounds
:comeon:
Is bread $2.50 in those countries? Is milk $5?

And yes you can live off of $0 a day but the point is that's much more difficult to do in America than in other countries.
 

theworldismine13

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The only way to do that is to move away, and become immigrants to somewhere else.

:manny: ultimately a parent is responsible for the education of their child, if its necessary to move to another country, state or district then they should do that

that is why im for vouchers, charters and everything else, parents have to have maximum choices

How could it make a difference? If the kids don't have quality schools, their parents don't have quality education, and they are still hungry therefore attracted to crime. How does convincing them to go to school help?

If all the things that created the culture are still there. How does changing a family today, help families in the future?

Wouldn't it make more sense to fix the problems that created to culture, so that the culture could fix itself today and in the future?

quality schools comes from quality students, quality parents and quality teachers

if a school doesnt have that, then the school should be closed down or the school needs to change the culture of the child and parent or get better teachers

imo the root problem is culture, and it has to be a conscious decision by the community to change its culture, so imo i still say the solution is to tell people to change their culture, the people have to change first and then other changes come later, if not you can build a new school, new houses etc etc but if the culture is the same you will end up with the same results

at the end of the day black people have to change their culture, period, its not easy its hard

I never said that the goverment could eliminate poverty. I said those of us that want to help should start with addressing the things that cause the bad culture and poverty is one of them. We need to share wealth within our own communities, we need to fight for better schools. We need to provide opportunities for our own people to pull themselves out of poverty. Simply telling them to get their shyt together will do absolutely nothing.

i just disagree, i actually do think its about simply telling people to get their shyt together, i dont think we need to share wealth, we need to share knowledge, we need to enforce constitutional rights and promote economic and intellectual freedom, that is why i support obama's speech and i support using information from immigrants

i think you are in danger of doing what mcwhorter was saying http://www.the-coli.com/3303635-post55.html , in that in the end all you are suggesting is a laundry list of leftists solutions that amount to the lyndon johnsons's Great Society/War on Poverty part deux and you are suggesting a part deux without a real critique of part un
 

theworldismine13

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:comeon:
Is bread $2.50 in those countries? Is milk $5?

And yes you can live off of $0 a day but the point is that's much more difficult to do in America than in other countries.

but that is the point, it is the equivalent of 2.50, thats what im tryna get you to understand, in nigeria you have to work a whole day and half to buy a loaf of bread for your family and hope that lasts a while, of course you can live like that, but it suks
 

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Its perversely entertaining the way conservative "intellectuals" twist themselves into mental pretzels, trying to indict black "culture" as a source for community woes and struggles, yet this "culture" somehow developed, and exists independently from the white mainstream, and its environment of discrimination and belittlement.
it's not just conservatives though man. There are plenty of people of black people who follow this ignorant simpleminded line of thinking as well. It's really puzzles me how people who are supposedly intelligent can be so short sighted.
 

MeachTheMonster

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:manny: ultimately a parent is responsible for the education of their child, if its necessary to move to another country, state or district then they should do that

that is why im for vouchers, charters and everything else, parents have to have maximum choices
The kids who have quality parents aren't the ones that need help. Vouchers won't help if mom is to stupid to sign the kids up. Charters won't help if mom is to broke to pay for gas to get the kid there



quality schools comes from quality students, quality parents and quality teachers

if a school doesnt have that, then the school should be closed down or the school needs to change the culture of the child and parent or get better teachers
That sounds good to say on an Internet forum. But in reality it's just not feasable. We can't afford to feed these kids, how could we possibly afford to build them all new schools. And if we never address the problems that created the bad schools, what's to stop the new schools from having the same problems?

imo the root problem is culture, and it has to be a conscious decision by the community to change its culture, so imo i still say the solution is to tell people to change their culture, the people have to change first and then other changes come later, if not you can build a new school, new houses etc etc but if the culture is the same you will end up with the same results

at the end of the day black people have to change their culture, period, its not easy its hard

You can tell a person their culture is wrong. But unless you adress the things that created the wrong culture, nothing will change.

Adults are stuck in their ways, we can't change them. The oh way to change the culture is to start with the kids. We can't change the kids through talk when the outside world is SHOWING them the wrong stuff.



i just disagree, i actually do think its about simply telling people to get their shyt together, i dont think we need to share wealth, we need to share knowledge, we need to enforce constitutional rights and promote economic and intellectual freedom, that is why i support obama's speech and i support using information from immigrants
People already know they need to get their shyt together, they don't need you to tell them. People know being uneducated and stuck in the hood isn't a good thing. They just don't feel they have other options. They settle for what they have because they don't see a way out. I advocate showing them a way out. Not telling them SHOWING them.

i think you are in danger of doing what mcwhorter was saying http://www.the-coli.com/3303635-post55.html , in that in the end all you are suggesting is a laundry list of leftists solutions that amount to the lyndon johnsins's great society/war on poverty part deux and you are suggesting a part deaux without a real critique of part un

I'm not with all the left right democrat republican talk. I advocate a hands on approach of succesful black folks going back to our communities and making a change.
 
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