Dinesh D'Souza on Black failure

[MeachTheMonster]

I don't see why you guys are obsessed with this issue of comparing immigrants to blacks, I think you are missing the point of that comparison

The point of studying immigrants is to get new ideas on how to develop the black economy especially things that they do internally, we don't need to go to bank if we develop our own funding mechanisms a for example, we don't need to lower the level of racism to increase out savings rate etc etc

Nobody is saying racism doesn't exist, but I think mcwhorter makes an excellent point in this video http://www.the-coli.com/3303635-post55.html that when you pursue the notion that ending racism is the foundation of black economic success you are essentially saying that black people will never succeed until this country is perfect, a notion which I think is false

I agree that ending racism isn't the foundation of black success. It shouldn't even be considered when talking about what black people need to do to find success. On the other hand it should be considered when analyzing why so many black people engage in self destructive behavior. Or why some people succeed and others don't.

The comparison of african americans to immigrants is invalid in my opinion because in order to make the comparison you have to stand on a couple fallacies in the first place. First off "poor" people aren't moving here and just automaticaly making a bunch of money. Immigrants who move here poor, and live in poor neighborhoods fall into the same traps as poor Americans. Second the notion that immigrants find wealth by keeping things internal or not needing banks for funding is totaly false. This is the biggest advantage immigrants have, an immigrant is much more likely to be approved for business loans, than a poor American. Also they have a support system back home of people sending them resources, connections, etc. and once they open their businesses they make money because they attract consumers from all races and backgrounds, not just their own.

 

[theworldismine13]

I agree that ending racism isn't the foundation of black success. It shouldn't even be considered when talking about what black people need to do to find success. On the other hand it should be considered when analyzing why so many black people engage in self destructive behavior. Or why some people succeed and others don't.

The comparison of african americans to immigrants is invalid in my opinion because in order to make the comparison you have to stand on a couple fallacies in the first place. First off "poor" people aren't moving here and just automaticaly making a bunch of money. Immigrants who move here poor, and live in poor neighborhoods fall into the same traps as poor Americans. Second the notion that immigrants find wealth by keeping things internal or not needing banks for funding is totaly false. This is the biggest advantage immigrants have, an immigrant is much more likely to be approved for business loans, than a poor American. Also they have a support system back home of people sending them resources, connections, etc. and once they open their businesses they make money because they attract consumers from all races and backgrounds, not just their own.

I honestly don't give a fuk about comparing blacks to immigrants, not only do I compare blacks to immigrants, I compare blacks to american whites, europeans, africans, Japanese, Chinese, Greeks, Romans Egyptians etc etc

To me I consider it an academic exercise whereby I use world history and economic history to formulate ideas on what black people should do, to me immigrants that are succesful are people that we can steal ideas from

I think were you are coming from is more an emotional pov, where you don't want black people to be insulted, which I get, but I'm not an emotional guy and more of a facts and figures type of guy

But I reject 1000 percent the notion that because blacks and immigrants have different histories that you can't apply lessons from the immigrant experience to problems in the black community, I think that notion is anti intellectual and I think it's totally legitimate to steal ideas from other people and apply it to the black community

 

[newarkhiphop]

All my black families who came from Ghana are now middle class making 6 figures...

African Americans have been here for over 400 years and still struggling.

there seems to be a disconnect in black immigrant success compared to AA's

what do you think that disconnect is ? In others words what allows a immigrant from Ghana to come here and prosper and a AA to struggle?

 

[newarkhiphop]

I agree that ending racism isn't the foundation of black success. It shouldn't even be considered when talking about what black people need to do to find success. On the other hand it should be considered when analyzing why so many black people engage in self destructive behavior. Or why some people succeed and others don't.

The comparison of african americans to immigrants is invalid in my opinion because in order to make the comparison you have to stand on a couple fallacies in the first place. First off "poor" people aren't moving here and just automaticaly making a bunch of money. Immigrants who move here poor, and live in poor neighborhoods fall into the same traps as poor Americans. Second the notion that immigrants find wealth by keeping things internal or not needing banks for funding is totaly false. This is the biggest advantage immigrants have, an immigrant is much more likely to be approved for business loans, than a poor American. Also they have a support system back home of people sending them resources, connections, etc. and once they open their businesses they make money because they attract consumers from all races and backgrounds, not just their own.

Most successful immigrants come here with college degrees and the financial support necessary to begin a proper life. The successful ones are already privileged from the get-go, in terms of both money and opportunity, compared to the average Black person.

Obviously, there's a cultural difference- most successful Asians come from cultures where academics are extremely important. But the ones who come here aren't just the ones who have benefited from that culture for generations. They have additional advantages. There's no way to properly analogize immigants and Black people.

Not true at all. The percent that come to this country with those type of advantages already set up are very low , if I had to put a # on it I would say 20% - 30 % (being generous) and even those the only reason that system is already in place 99% of the time is due to the immigration cycle i described a couple of post ago.

You average immigrants comes to this country severely disadvantaged when compared to blacks.

They don't fully speak the language
They don't fully understand the language
Have little to no English written communication skills
Have little to no understanding of American Culture ( highly underrated)
Don't have many resources available to them
Are here with No or forged paperwork

 

[No_bammer_weed]

I honestly don't give a fuk about comparing blacks to immigrants, not only do I compare blacks to immigrants, I compare blacks to american whites, europeans, africans, Japanese, Chinese, Greeks, Romans Egyptians etc etc

To me I consider it an academic exercise whereby I use world history and economic history to formulate ideas on what black people should do, to me immigrants that are succesful are people that we can steal ideas from

I think were you are coming from is more an emotional pov, where you don't want black people to be insulted, which I get, but I'm not an emotional guy and more of a facts and figures type of guy

But I reject 1000 percent the notion that because blacks and immigrants have different histories that you can't apply lessons from the immigrant experience to problems in the black community, I think that notion is anti intellectual and I think it's totally legitimate to steal ideas from other people and apply it to the black community

You are making an emotional argument --- its conservative emotion at play here, where you are trying to minimize the effect of the American socio-economic environment as a culprit in individual black success rates.

You claim to be a "facts and figures" guy, correct? Well, you should know that people overwhelmingly stay in the same relative socio-economic strata in which he or she was born. Rich stay rich --- middle class stay middle class, etc.

Facts and figures will inform you that success is built upon stimulation, not deprivation. Considering that the average wealth of black families is somewhere around 5% of whites, well, a hypothesis forms. This isnt even including centuries of legalized and structural discrimination. If you want to be taken serious as an intellectual, you cant pick and choose the variables analyzed in order to draw conclusions. Thats lazy.

 

[MeachTheMonster]

At the height of racism the AA family did not have this many deadbeats, high incarceration rate and poverty levels.

The breakdown of the family has everything to do with it. You can blame racism all you want but at the end of the day, black immigrants who have the same skin color are succeeding at the rate 80% higher than blacks born and bred here....

Racism exist but at the end of the day, your destiny is in your hands

Your first sentence is incorrect on so many levels. Poverty levels, incarceration rates, and deadbeat dads are lower now than they were in the past. And the notion that racism is somehow less detrimental now than it has been in the past is totaly off base as well. Sure white people aren't out hanging black folks and calling them ******s, but the institutionalized racism, the real racism that effects our educational and economic opportunities is alive and thriving today.

This "breakdown of the black family" notion y'all like to push is totaly invalid as well. The history of black folks in America dictates that we have NEVER had strong family structures. From slavery where we were stripped of our culture and weren't even allowed to have families, to the first freed slaves who couldn't find their families, to the black people who endured the Jim Crow laws, to the drug ridden communities of the 60s 70s and 80s. We have never been able to cultivate a culture of strong family support. It's easy to look at history books that show bullet points about black wal street or the civil rights movement and think those are better times, but in reality black people as a whole were way worse off then, than they are now.


Now with all that out of the way, my post you quoted was not saying that racism is stopping people from succeeding. My post was anylizing WHY so many black people subscribe to self destructive behavior and why the comparison between people raised in poor American neighborhoods and immigrants should not be made.

And African immigrant and a poor African American, are not starting from the same place. They are not facing the same challenges. They are not given the same opportunities. They don't have the same backgrounds culture or support. It's a totally invalid comparision to make and it offers absolutely no insight on why black Americans have some of the problem they do or how they can fix them.

 

[MeachTheMonster]

Not true at all. The percent that come to this country with those type of advantages already set up are very low , if I had to put a # on it I would say 20% - 30 % (being generous) and even those the only reason that system is already in place 99% of the time is due to the immigration cycle i described a couple of post ago.

You average immigrants comes to this country severely disadvantaged when compared to blacks.

They don't fully speak the language
They don't fully understand the language
Have little to no English written communication skills
Have little to no understanding of American Culture ( highly underrated)
Don't have many resources available to them
Are here with No or forged paperwork

And the immigrants that you describe here end up poor and living in a fukked up neighborhood right along with the black folks.

It's a myth that people are showing up here broke and fukked up, and just magicaly making a bunch of money.

 

[The Real]

Not true at all. The percent that come to this country with those type of advantages already set up are very low , if I had to put a # on it I would say 20% - 30 % (being generous) and even those the only reason that system is already in place 99% of the time is due to the immigration cycle i described a couple of post ago.

You average immigrants comes to this country severely disadvantaged when compared to blacks.

They don't fully speak the language
They don't fully understand the language
Have little to no English written communication skills
Have little to no understanding of American Culture ( highly underrated)
Don't have many resources available to them
Are here with No or forged paperwork

The average immigrant doesn't succeed. It's not a coincidence that South Asians are some of the wealthiest immigrants in this country (Hindus are the wealthiest religious group, per capita)- they already have educations, they speak English before they get here, have strong family support, etc. Beyond that, they have no real experience living in or being a target of police, prisons, and violent crime (very few immigrants are refugees from violent areas.)

@ your claim that the average immigrant has forged or no paperwork. Sorry, but there's no way I'm buying that. You'll have to post some stats for this stuff.

 

[newarkhiphop]

And the immigrants that you describe here end up poor and living in a fukked up neighborhood right along with the black folks.

It's a myth that people are showing up here broke and fukked up, and just magicaly making a bunch of money.

yes a number of them do come here and either end up living fukked up along with black or end up going back to there countries but the argument is why do a good # of them end up "making it" in a quicker turn around time than blacks

 

[theworldismine13]

That's a fair point, but do we really need to study other groups to arrive at these relatively basic ideas? Historically, I think Black people were already pursuing them in many forms, whether through Black Wall Street or whatever else. When D'souza employs that narrative here, he's doing it in bad faith- specifically to make that simplistic comparison and thereby distort the context of Black failure. I think you're being too charitable to that video.



That's also a fair point, but I think it's largely a strawman. I don't think anyone is calling for an end to racism before Black organization and development can begin. It's more about specific issues that do make up real, structural barriers- how can Black people start businesses at the rate of immigrants or anyone else without relatively equal access to the basics, like the initial loans?

If you have some kind of beef with dinesh that between you and him, and if you can delve into his soul to see the anti black motivation that drives him ill take your word for it

But I overall I basically agree with what he said except for his downplaying of civil liberties, I think discussing black culture is legit, i think using immigrant communities as examples is legit and i go even further in that we should use other nations and ancient civilizations as examples

I think black culture is the crux that will determine the fate of black people I don't believe that structural barriers are fundamental, I believe culture is fundamental

 

[Chris.B]

what do you think that disconnect is ? In others words what allows a immigrant from Ghana to come here and prosper and a AA to struggle?

I think it all comes down to drive to succeed, not saying AA's don't want to succeed but I feel a sense of "acceptance of mediocrity" in the black community. Some people are content with staying on welfare with no drive to succeed. As long as they are getting a place to stay and food to eat, the motivational drive to go beyond that is not enough.

Most immigrant families refuse to go on government assistance and get a job right away once they touch the shores of America....the worth ethic gene is there....

ALSO

Most immigrant families are married and STAY married. That's not the case with American blacks.

A single mother can only do her best no way in hell her paycheck can support a family and most importantly I think black women in American are on some "Mrs independent bullsh!t" which goes contrary to the way a woman is supposed behave, act and conduct herself. I blame BLACK women for majority of the ILLS in the black community.

Single motherhood is admired like is some sort of an accomplishment. In most immigrant communities a single mother can't even show her face.

Black women will procreate and fukk any loser and later complain about how this n!gga aint sh!t because "he don't take care of his kids"

Well b!tch doesn't it take 2 to tango?

Even if you have a married black family with man and woman making 40K each, that's 80K in gross income. That right there lifts that family and a kid out of poverty.....

 

[MeachTheMonster]

I honestly don't give a fuk about comparing blacks to immigrants, not only do I compare blacks to immigrants, I compare blacks to american whites, europeans, africans, Japanese, Chinese, Greeks, Romans Egyptians etc etc

To me I consider it an academic exercise whereby I use world history and economic history to formulate ideas on what black people should do, to me immigrants that are succesful are people that we can steal ideas from

I think were you are coming from is more an emotional pov, where you don't want black people to be insulted, which I get, but I'm not an emotional guy and more of a facts and figures type of guy

But I reject 1000 percent the notion that because blacks and immigrants have different histories that you can't apply lessons from the immigrant experience to problems in the black community, I think that notion is anti intellectual and I think it's totally legitimate to steal ideas from other people and apply it to the black community

Sure it's good to look at other stories of success to look for ideas on how to create success for yourself. But that's different from making a comparison and saying "just cause this person was able to do it, this other totaly unrelated person should be able to do the same"

When this comparison is made it's not made to help black people or to give them ideas on what to do. The comparison is made and used as proof that black people just don't want to succeed or they are somehow lesser than other cultures. This notion is totaly incorect, because we see all around the world that poor people exhibit the same type of behavior. It has nothing to do with "black culture" or a "breakdown in family structure" it's poverty. People in poverty are drawn to self destructive behavior, it's a viscous cycle and it holds true all around the world, not just in America.

 

[MeachTheMonster]

yes a number of them do come here and either end up living fukked up along with black or end up going back to there countries but the argument is why do a good # of them end up "making it" in a quicker turn around time than blacks

The ones that do "make it" are the ones that come here educated with support systems already in place.

 

[Chris.B]

Your first sentence is incorrect on so many levels. Poverty levels, incarceration rates, and deadbeat dads are lower now than they were in the past. And the notion that racism is somehow less detrimental now than it has been in the past is totaly off base as well. Sure white people aren't out hanging black folks and calling them ******s, but the institutionalized racism, the real racism that effects our educational and economic opportunities is alive and thriving today.

This "breakdown of the black family" notion y'all like to push is totaly invalid as well. The history of black folks in America dictates that we have NEVER had strong family structures. From slavery where we were stripped of our culture and weren't even allowed to have families, to the first freed slaves who couldn't find their families, to the black people who endured the Jim Crow laws, to the drug ridden communities of the 60s 70s and 80s. We have never been able to cultivate a culture of strong family support. It's easy to look at history books that show bullet points about black wal street or the civil rights movement and think those are better times, but in reality black people as a whole were way worse off then, than they are now.


Now with all that out of the way, my post you quoted was not saying that racism is stopping people from succeeding. My post was anylizing WHY so many black people subscribe to self destructive behavior and why the comparison between people raised in poor American neighborhoods and immigrants should not be made.

And African immigrant and a poor African American, are not starting from the same place. They are not facing the same challenges. They are not given the same opportunities. They don't have the same backgrounds culture or support. It's a totally invalid comparision to make and it offers absolutely no insight on why black Americans have some of the problem they do or how they can fix them.

So are you admitting the African Immigrant is somehow superior to the black American that's why he made it to the shores of America?

What opportunities does a black immigrant from Ghana have that an AA don't have?

When my father came to the US he had $1K in his pocket and a suitcase.
He borrowed 1K from his friends in Ghana for his plane ticket.


He is now a retired college tutor and a graphic designer please enlighten me on how the African immigrant and the black American don't have a level playing field.

 

[MeachTheMonster]

I think black culture is the crux that will determine the fate of black people I don't believe that structural barriers are fundamental, I believe culture is fundamental

You can't talk about culture, without talking about what shaped that culture. You can't change a culture by just saying "hey we need to change our culture" the only way to change a culture is to change what shapes that culture. In the case of black people in America decades of poverty and oppression has shaped the culture, so the only way to fix that culture is to fix the poverty and oppression that created it.