Dinesh D'Souza on Black failure

[theworldismine13]

the government isn't going to take care of you any better than you can take care of yourself.

there's a difference between using the government here and there as a means to achieve an ultimate goal, but unfortunately too many people want the government to take care of them from the womb to the tomb. the only reason I can think of as to why that is is that some people just enjoy being the victim and don't want to admit it.

what he said about black people being more concerned about being discriminated against in a denny's than issues that really affect them economically is true as fukk.

I think were I disagree with dinesh is his downplaying of civil liberties, I think that's pretty important

But I think what's happened is that we (black people) have mixed up civil rights with an economic plan, so black people have assumed that civil rights and economic progress go hand in hand, which is false, one can exist without the other, in other words you can have economic freedom without individual freedom

I think black people should care about how they get treated at Denny's as long as we realize that fighting denny's and fighting discrimination is not an economic plan

 

[MeachTheMonster]

I think were I disagree with dinesh is his downplaying of civil liberties, I think that's pretty important

But I think what's happened is that we (black people) have mixed up civil rights with an economic plan, so black people have assumed that civil rights and economic progress go hand in hand, which is false, one can exist without the other, in other words you can have economic freedom without individual freedom

I think black people should care about how they get treated at Denny's as long as we realize that fighting denny's and fighting discrimination is not an economic plan

Civil rights have to be PART of any economic plan. If we don't have equal economic oportunity, then we will never have equal achievement.

Now to the individual. One can't worry too much about civil equality because you are already here and you have to play the cards you are delt. You alone are responsible for your success or lack there of.

But as a collective we have to lobby for civil rights and they do effect our success as a whole. Currently the American system of goverment and culture dictates that when it come to minorities only the absolute best of the best will make it, and they still will achieve less than their white counterparts. This is engrained in American society and no amount of bootstrapping or personal responsibility can change that.

So we as black people need to try to be the best of the best. That's a good message and its great to motivate the kids. But in reality we know that everybody can't be the best of the best. Some people just aren't smart enough, or disciplined enough, or determined enough. And it has nothing to do with skin color, it's just how things work, people are different. And this is were lobbying for civil equality is a valid economic plan. We need to lobby for a system that gives ALL black people a chance at prosperity not just SOME.

 

[theworldismine13]

Civil rights have to be PART of any economic plan. If we don't have equal economic oportunity, then we will never have equal achievement.

Now to the individual. One can't worry too much about civil equality because you are already here and you have to play the cards you are delt. You alone are responsible for your success or lack there of.

But as a collective we have to lobby for civil rights and they do effect our success as a whole. Currently the American system of goverment and culture dictates that when it come to minorities only the absolute best of the best will make it, and they still will achieve less than their white counterparts. This is engrained in American society and no amount of bootstrapping or personal responsibility can change that.

So we as black people need to try to be the best of the best. That's a good message and its great to motivate the kids. But in reality we know that everybody can't be the best of the best. Some people just aren't smart enough, or disciplined enough, or determined enough. And it has nothing to do with skin color, it's just how things work, people are different. And this is were lobbying for civil equality is a valid economic plan. We need to lobby for a system that gives ALL black people a chance at prosperity not just SOME.

No it doesn't, civil rights and individual rights are good things, but to have economic success you do not need civil rights, I am not saying that to downplay the importance of individual freedom, in fact that is where I depart from dinesh

But it's simply a fact, that you can see by studying other groups that its possible to have economic success without individual freedom

I think the concept that black people can have economic success regardless of what white people do is a concept that black people have a hard time fathoming, and it's a weakness that has to be corrected

 

[MeachTheMonster]

No it doesn't, civil rights and individual rights are good things, but to have economic success you do not need civil rights, I am not saying that to downplay the importance of individual freedom, in fact that is where I depart from dinesh

But it's simply a fact, that you can see by studying other groups that its possible to have economic success without individual freedom

I think the concept that black people can have economic success regardless of what white people do is a concept that black people have a hard time fathoming, and it's a weakness that has to be corrected

in the most basic sense that statement is false. One has to have the "right" to be succesful in order to be succesful. Now extrapolate that to today's American society and civil rights are an intertrgral part of economic achievement.

Individuals can find economic success without individual freedom, but black people as a whole can't.

If we only focus on personal responsibilty than nothing will change. Some of us will make it and some of us won't. If we ever want to make it so black or minority achievement is equal to white folks, then the opportunities have to be equal. That's the only way.

I agree with your sentiment that focusing on racism, isn't a good economic plan. But I think you are taking it too far. Civil equality is just as important as personal responsibilty when it comes to overall achievement. Which is exactly why they fight so hard to preserve the inequality.

 

[theworldismine13]

Civil rights have to be PART of any economic plan. If we don't have equal economic oportunity, then we will never have equal achievement.

you can make civil rights part of your economic plan if you want, what i said is that civil rights is not an economic plan

and secondly we, or at least me, are not fighting for equal rights, we are fighting to be on top and to be dominant

Now to the individual. One can't worry too much about civil equality because you are already here and you have to play the cards you are delt. You alone are responsible for your success or lack there of.

But as a collective we have to lobby for civil rights and they do effect our success as a whole. Currently the American system of goverment and culture dictates that when it come to minorities only the absolute best of the best will make it, and they still will achieve less than their white counterparts. This is engrained in American society and no amount of bootstrapping or personal responsibility can change that.

when it comes to minorities some groups succeed and some dont, asians have succeeded to a large degree and blacks and latino havent to a large a degree

so its not just a function of the "system" its also a function of the culture and actions of the minority groups that has an impact on economic success

I agree with your sentiment that focusing on racism, isn't a good economic plan. But I think you are taking it too far. Civil equality is just as important as personal responsibility when it comes to overall achievement. Which is exactly why they fight so hard to preserve the inequality.

i dont know what you mean by taking it too far, i just said a couple of posts ago that i depart with dinesh in downplaying civil liberties, civil liberties are very important and i think it can help you economically, but civil liberties is not an economic plan

its important to make that distinction because since the 60's we have been pursuing a political strategy of voting for the least racist person and focusing on civil rights and people have confused that with an economic strategy

im 1000% behind civil rights, but i would strongly disagree and give a few s with letting the political ideology that is most for civil rights ie liberals, socialist and marxists start dictating black economic policy

i think in formulating an economic policy you have to exercise you right to complete intellectual freedom and also look at other people on how they gained economic power, so i have no problem listening to dinesh even if he was a racist, black people will have to copy and learn certain things from people that we consider racist if we want to dominate economically

 

[MeachTheMonster]

you can make civil rights part of your economic plan if you want, what i said is that civil rights is not an economic plan

and secondly we, or at least me, are not fighting for equal rights, we are fighting to be on top and to be dominant

how in the fukk could we be dominant without at least being equal first?

wwhen it comes to minorities some groups succeed and some dont, asians have succeeded to a large degree and blacks and latino havent to a large a degree

Asians born in poor American cities perform the same as any other minority born in those cities. Asian immigrants outperform other minorities because they are coming from a better places economically and educationally back home. Also race does play a big part in this. African immigrants are the most educated yet least employed. I wonder why that is? They must not care about their schooling either.

so its not just a function of the "system" its also a function of the culture and actions of the minority groups that has an impact on economic success

What you continue to ignore is that the culture IS a function of the system. The system creates and reinforces culture, therefore you can't talk about culture without addressing the system.

i dont know what you mean by taking it too far, i just said a couple of posts ago that i depart with dinesh in downplaying civil liberties, civil liberties are very important and i think it can help you economically, but civil liberties is not an economic plan

You act as though one can't address both issues. You keep repeating the same thing"civil liberties is not an ecomic plan" well no shyt. An economic plan is an "economic plan" but that doesn't mean that civil rights isn't related to economic achievement.

its important to make that distinction because since the 60's we have been pursuing a political strategy of voting for the least racist person and focusing on civil rights and people have confused that with an economic strategy

I've never heard anyone say "civil rights is an economic strategy" that's something you made up. Since the 60s we have fought for equality and that fight for equality has garnered us plenty of success and opportunity. It makes absolutely no sense to give up that fight now since we've made some progress.

im 1000% behind civil rights, but i would strongly disagree and give a few s with letting the political ideology that is most for civil rights ie liberals, socialist and marxists start dictating black economic policy

What is "black economic policy"?

i think in formulating an economic policy you have to exercise you right to complete intellectual freedom and also look at other people on how they gained economic power, so i have no problem listening to dinesh even if he was a racist, black people will have to copy and learn certain things from people that we consider racist if we want to dominate economically

The only people with economic power in this country got that power from 400 years of enslaving another people. If you know of a way to reinstate slavery with the rolls reversed than I'd like to hear it. Until then racist opinions don't matter, because they are used to deflect from the real matters at hand.

 

[theworldismine13]

in the most basic sense that statement is false. One has to have the "right" to be succesful in order to be succesful. Now extrapolate that to today's American society and civil rights are an intertrgral part of economic achievement.

Individuals can find economic success without individual freedom, but black people as a whole can't.

If we only focus on personal responsibilty than nothing will change. Some of us will make it and some of us won't. If we ever want to make it so black or minority achievement is equal to white folks, then the opportunities have to be equal. That's the only way.

I agree with your sentiment that focusing on racism, isn't a good economic plan. But I think you are taking it too far. Civil equality is just as important as personal responsibilty when it comes to overall achievement. Which is exactly why they fight so hard to preserve the inequality.

i never said we shouldn't focus on individual freedom, but individual freedom is separate from economic freedom, and civil rights is not an economic plan

and i never said the goal was to achieve equality between whites and blacks, what i said is that black people need to dominate

 

[MeachTheMonster]

i never said we shouldn't focus on individual freedom, but individual freedom is separate from economic freedom, and civil rights is not an economic plan

and i never said the goal was to achieve equality between whites and blacks, what i said is that black people need to dominate

smart dumb nikka shyt. Some shyt that sounds good on paper but in reality makes no sense at all. How can a minority dominate?

When has civil rights ever been an "ecomic plan"?

 

[theworldismine13]

how in the fukk could we be dominant without at least being equal first?

thats not the point, the point is if you are making a plan you have to set the proper goals, equality is not a proper goal imo, at least in economics, anybody that tries to be "equal" in economics will lose eventually

Asians born in poor American cities perform the same as any other minority born in those cities. Asian immigrants outperform other minorities because they are coming from a better places economically and educationally back home. Also race does play a big part in this. African immigrants are the most educated yet least employed. I wonder why that is? They must not care about their schooling either.

i think your stats are way off, asians born in poor american cities (whatever that means) do not perform the same, and even when income is taken into account asians still perform better academically

i remember somebody posting an a study that said that about african immigrants but it turned out to be bogus

What you continue to ignore is that the culture IS a function of the system. The system creates and reinforces culture, therefore you can't talk about culture without addressing the system.

culture is a function of a lot of things

You act as though one can't address both issues. You keep repeating the same thing"civil liberties is not an ecomic plan" well no shyt. An economic plan is an "economic plan" but that doesn't mean that civil rights isn't related to economic achievement.

i never said that you can't address both issues, what i said is that people shouldnt confuse those 2 issues, and that just because somebody is fighting for civil rights doesnt mean they have a good grasp of economic issues or that they have good economic ideas

and i can listen to somebody that doesnt give a fuk about civil rights if a feel they have good economic ideas, that is the point of separating the 2

I've never heard anyone say "civil rights is an economic strategy" that's something you made up. Since the 60s we have fought for equality and that fight for equality has garnered us plenty of success and opportunity. It makes absolutely no sense to give up that fight now since we've made some progress.

i have no idea why you think im saying we shouldnt fight for civil rights, im 100% behind civil rights, i just separate civil rights from an economic plan

civil rights is part of individual freedom, but another part of individual freedom is intellectual freedom

now is it ok with you if i exercise my intellectual freedom to critique the success and failures of the civil rights movement, because the failure of civil rights has been economics and i think the reason or that failure has been people conflating civil rights and economics

What is "black economic policy"?

black economic policy is the policy advocated by black people in power

The only people with economic power in this country got that power from 400 years of enslaving another people. If you know of a way to reinstate slavery with the rolls reversed than I'd like to hear it. Until then racist opinions don't matter, because they are used to deflect from the real matters at hand.

like dinesh said black people firmly believe that their destiny is attached to the proclivities of the white race, but if you believe that in your heart of hearts i dont think there is anything i can say to change your mind, but i think the way you think will fade because its not sustainable

 

[theworldismine13]

smart dumb nikka shyt. Some shyt that sounds good on paper but in reality makes no sense at all. How can a minority dominate?

When has civil rights ever been an "ecomic plan"?

like i said, you have to read world history and see and study situations where minorities have held power, that is why i do the opposite of what you suggest, instead of not comparing african americans to other groups, i double down on that, i think we have to compare ourselves to greeks, romans, jews, white americans, native americans, asians, african etc etc

throughout world history and even american history there have been instances of a minorities dominating a majority and we need to study those

the notion that "equality" is the key to black success is just that, a notion, its just an idea in a universe of other ideas, I as an individual with full intellectual freedom can decide which notion i think its best, and i never agreed with the notion that we were fighting for equality

 

[Walt]

I haven't read a word of this thread. Just popped in to say that it's tragicomic that in 2013 there's a multi-page Dinesh fukking D'Souza thread in Higher Learning. Dinesh fukking D'Souza? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

 

[MeachTheMonster]

like i said, you have to read world history and see and study situations where minorities have held power, that is why i do the opposite of what you suggest, instead of not comparing african americans to other groups, i double down on that, i think we have to compare ourselves to greeks, romans, jews, white americans, native americans, asians, african etc etc

throughout world history and even american history there have been instances of a minorities dominating a majority and we need to study those

the notion that "equality" is the key to black success is just that, a notion, its just an idea in a universe of other ideas, I as an individual with full intellectual freedom can decide which notion i think its best, and i never agreed with the notion that we were fighting for equality

Name one society in which the minority was dominant and held the most economic power.

 

[theworldismine13]

Name one society in which the minority was dominant and held the most economic power.

Jews in America

 

[theworldismine13]

the point im getting at and why dinesh is correct in a lot of ways is that there is a limit to civil rights and fighting for "equality" and we have reached that limit, civil rights is a good thing but they are not an economic plan

so therefore its important to study other groups and learn from them to go to the next level

 

[MeachTheMonster]

thats not the point, the point is if you are making a plan you have to set the proper goals, equality is not a proper goal imo, at least in economics, anybody that tries to be "equal" in economics will lose eventually

You can't set a proper goal while ignoring a current reality. That's like the Washington wizards talmbout there gonna win a championship without addressing the severe lack of talent on the team. You have to set reasonable and attainable goals then when you meet those goals you set new ones. We can't go from uneducated and broke to running the world without making plenty of stops in between.

i think your stats are way off, asians born in poor american cities (whatever that means) do not perform the same, and even when income is taken into account asians still perform better academically

i remember somebody posting an a study that said that about african immigrants but it turned out to be bogus

Your stats are way off. Asian Americans in inner city schools, don't outperform everyone else unless they come from an educated backround. Economic acheivment for Asians or any other immigrant group has more to do with where they came from than anything else. Asians from highly educated societies such as India do much better than Asians coming from Cambodia. Chinese students in New York have a highschool graduation rate of just 33%. It's a myth created by the media that immigrants are just coming to America and making a bunch of money. In reality immigrants move here and live in poverty just like everybody else. Yes SOME make it but SOME black people make it as well. So using immigrants as proof that black people can make it is a stupid assertion.

culture is a function of a lot of things

So stop acting like it can be changed with a snap of the fingers. In order to change a culture the conditions that created that culture have to change.

i never said that you can't address both issues, what i said is that people shouldnt confuse those 2 issues, and that just because somebody is fighting for civil rights doesnt mean they have a good grasp of economic issues or that they have good economic ideas

Racist people are looking to confuse you and spew misinformation. There is nothing you can learn from their ideas, other than what NOT to do.

and i can listen to somebody that doesnt give a fuk about civil rights if a feel they have good economic ideas, that is the point of separating the 2

You "listening" to these people is exactly why your outlook is not based in reality. They ignore reality to give you these "ideas" and you believe them. Ignoring the reality that's in front of your face.

i have no idea why you think im saying we shouldnt fight for civil rights, im 100% behind civil rights, i just separate civil rights from an economic plan

Who ever said civil rights was an "economic plan"?

civil rights is part of individual freedom, but another part of individual freedom is intellectual freedom

now is it ok with you if i exercise my intellectual freedom to critique the success and failures of the civil rights movement, because the failure of civil rights has been economics and i think the reason or that failure has been people conflating civil rights and economics

How could economics be a failure of civil rights when we have much less people living in poverty now, and plenty more wealthy black folks?

black economic policy is the policy advocated by black people in power

Black people in power don't agree on everything, so how can you say what "black economic policy" is?

like dinesh said black people firmly believe that their destiny is attached to the proclivities of the white race, but if you believe that in your heart of hearts i dont think there is anything i can say to change your mind, but i think the way you think will fade because its not sustainable

who said that?

"Like dinesh said....." Is a crock of shyt cause I've never heard a black person say that. This is exactly why you shouldn't listen to these racist a$$holes. They tell you shyt that's not based in reality then you believe them.