Classics Discussion: Mobb Deep & Big Pun

[BmoreGorilla]

This is what I wanted to see.

Can you confirm this? Is there anything I can read? Alchemist saying something? The aforementioned groups referencing it? This could make me swing my vote.

Take a listen to anything QB related from 96 on. Especially the War Report and the Cormega Def Jam album that was shelved and you'll hear it. Also listen to some of Alchemist early production with groups like Dilated Peoples and the High and Mighty and than listen to how dark his sound got when he was around the Mobb

 

[Inspect Her Deck]

Take a listen to anything QB related from 96 on. Especially the War Report and the Cormega Def Jam album that was shelved and you'll hear it. Also listen to some of Alchemist early production with groups like Dilated Peoples and the High and Mighty and than listen to how dark his sound got when he was around the Mobb

you're talking specifically about HOE sound right? because that was different to The Infamous obviously.

 

[Inspect Her Deck]

yeah never mind you said 96 on...ok I'll see what I can find.

 

[BmoreGorilla]

yeah never mind you said 96 on...ok I'll see what I can find.

Notice how IWW had a couple Havoc joints on there that sound like something off HOE. And notice how this is the first and last time Nas used Havoc on his album except for one track on Nastradamus. It's obvious Nas didn't wanna be pigeonholed by that sound.

 

[Inspect Her Deck]

I say this as arguably the biggest Wu stan on the planet alongside Billy Ocean lol...

I'm sure a lot of Wu heads can relate

When you get immersed into the GOATness of Wu albums, be it the first 2 group albums or some of the solo joints, they tend to dominate your GOAT lists. Obviously bias plays a role, but they're so damn dope they genuinely deserve those top 3, 5, 10 spots etc.

Liquid Swords and Cuban Linx are my 1 and 2. That will probably never change. For years I had 36 Chambers at number 3, and The Infamous and Death Certificate rounded out my top 5.

Now listening to The Infamous again, this is the only album that can break the holy trinity sequence of Wu albums.

This is a masterpiece beyond words...and to see it has 6 no votes makes me sick


Top 3 albums all from 1995...what a time you chose to be born

 

[mobbinfms]

I say this as arguably the biggest Wu stan on the planet alongside Billy Ocean lol...

I'm sure a lot of Wu heads can relate

When you get immersed into the GOATness of Wu albums, be it the first 2 group albums or some of the solo joints, they tend to dominate your GOAT lists. Obviously bias plays a role, but they're so damn dope they genuinely deserve those top 3, 5, 10 spots etc.

Liquid Swords and Cuban Linx are my 1 and 2. That will probably never change. For years I had 36 Chambers at number 3, and The Infamous and Death Certificate rounded out my top 5.

Now listening to The Infamous again, this is the only album that can break the holy trinity sequence of Wu albums.

This is a masterpiece beyond words...and to see it has 6 no votes makes me sick


Top 3 albums all from 1995...what a time you chose to be born

Those 6 no votes are troll votes. Guaranteed.
Thing is, that means 6 of the no votes for HOE are troll votes as well.

 

[Inspect Her Deck]

Those 6 no votes are troll votes. Guaranteed.
Thing is, that means 6 of the no votes for HOE are troll votes as well.

can't do much about it tho

I have my suspicions about the Pac votes too...but the other extreme. Stans. Anyway Mobb at this moment have 2 classics registered. HOE on 80% lmao.

 

[arel]

If we just went off quality projects, we could list 500 classics easily.

I don't think that's unreasonable. The question you have posed is to determine which albums are classics, not which albums are part of the revisionist narrative of hip hop (aka the hip hop canon).

 

[Inspect Her Deck]

I don't think that's unreasonable. The question you have posed is to determine which albums are classics, not which albums are part of the revisionist narrative of hip hop (aka the hip hop canon).

yeah man but my point is that a classic is MORE than quality, at least for me. I don't have an issue with HOE being called classic, but under my criteria I don't think it constitutes although I'm looking more into the album now.

I'm trying to get people to convince me that under MY criteria, HOE can be a classic.

 

[torcher]

I voted yes for the Infamous, HOE and Capital Punishment. Murda Muzik is on the borderline between great and classic

 

[arel]

yeah man but my point is that a classic is MORE than quality, at least for me. I don't have an issue with HOE being called classic, but under my criteria I don't think it constitutes although I'm looking more into the album now.

I'm trying to get people to convince me that under MY criteria, HOE can be a classic.

The problem is you don't really have a well defined criteria because like mostly everyone you are blending the ideas of canon and quality. To me I have no difficulty determining whether something is a classic because I base it entirely on quality. If you blend this with concerns about whether it is part of the canon you end up skewing everything to the big names having significant portions of their discog hailed and the more marginal names getting their best album hailed in a sort of token gesture-hence how Pac has been voted 3 classics and mobb probably only going to get one (despite that hoe is better than at least 2 of the 3 pac albums).

Currently we've got a peculiar blend of objective and subjective. It seems to me that it would have been better if everyone voted subjectively based purely on quality and then at least we'd come to a conclusion we don't have an answer to e.g., a consensus on the highest quality albums (as opposed to the canon which everyone knows anyway). Instead we are currently effectively arguing against the canon on a quality criteria or disputing quality based on absence from the canon. Its confused.

 

[Dirty D]

Infamous, Hell on Earth, Capital Punishment

Drop a gem made people respect mobb deeps willingness to step in the ring. The meth/rae/nas collaborations showed that they were respected by and could hang with heavyweights. The influence of HOE's production has been noted. P going ham on every verse has been noted. So there's no debate imo it's definitely a classic record.

 

[Inspect Her Deck]

The problem is you don't really have a well defined criteria because like mostly everyone you are blending the ideas of canon and quality. To me I have no difficulty determining whether something is a classic because I base it entirely on quality. If you blend this with concerns about whether it is part of the canon you end up skewing everything to the big names having significant portions of their discog hailed and the more marginal names getting their best album hailed in a sort of token gesture-hence how Pac has been voted 3 classics and mobb probably only going to get one (despite that hoe is better than at least 2 of the 3 pac albums).

Currently we've got a peculiar blend of objective and subjective. It seems to me that it would have been better if everyone voted subjectively based purely on quality and then at least we'd come to a conclusion we don't have an answer to e.g., a consensus on the highest quality albums (as opposed to the canon which everyone knows anyway). Instead we are currently effectively arguing against the canon on a quality criteria or disputing quality based on absence from the canon. Its confused.

very true tbh. that's how I feel sometimes with it.

I mean I want everyone to vote on an individual basis, not to prescribe to my definition or anything and I feel that's what is going on for the most part. But I personally know that I understand a classic to be more than just quality. That's one vote out of whatever many.

The fact that HOE is teetering on 80% is more to do with the fact it is a debatable classic in reality. Whereas The Infamous and more concrete classics are soaring into the 90% and higher. Midnight Marauders had 100% success the other day.

But I appreciate your input, makes a lot of sense.

 

[arel]

very true tbh. that's how I feel sometimes with it.

I mean I want everyone to vote on an individual basis, not to prescribe to my definition or anything and I feel that's what is going on for the most part. But I personally know that I understand a classic to be more than just quality. That's one vote out of whatever many.

The fact that HOE is teetering on 80% is more to do with the fact it is a debatable classic in reality. Whereas The Infamous and more concrete classics are soaring into the 90% and higher. Midnight Marauders had 100% success the other day.

But I appreciate your input, makes a lot of sense.

I'm not sure that its really debatable vs concrete going on here. See the "concrete" albums are essentially the albums you would include in a hip hop primer (cross-scene). The "debatable" albums are the ones you get to when you dig into specific scenes. In other words they are more specialist and you enjoy / revere them when you mine them out from that seam rather than being conditioned to revere the rocks under the flattering light in the jewelry.

Ah whatever. I appreciate your thinking. Think you correct in all you basically saying but causing yourself difficulty by asking yourself a harder question than you need to.

 

[Inspect Her Deck]

I'm not sure that its really debatable vs concrete going on here. See the "concrete" albums are essentially the albums you would include in a hip hop primer (cross-scene). The "debatable" albums are the ones you get to when you dig into specific scenes. In other words they are more specialist and you enjoy / revere them when you mine them out from that seam rather than being conditioned to revere the rocks under the flattering light in the jewelry.

Ah whatever. I appreciate your thinking. Think you correct in all you basically saying but causing yourself difficulty by asking yourself a harder question than you need to.

I would rep if I could.

I still think that debatable, as the word suggests, invokes debate. It doesn't guarantee a hidden gem that MUST be classic, but to some it is and to some it isn't. I'm having an inner conflict with this album because I am really genuinely torn as to whether it is a classic or not. That's where the debatable comes from. But I KNOW The Infamous is a classic like I KNOW Cuban Linx is etc.

Essentially, these polls are here to uncover the debatable and see which side of the fence various albums lie on. We all know when I put up the polls for The Infamous, Reasonable Doubt etc. it is a formality, but I do it anyway.

Maybe I should focus on the quality. But I also have to be careful not to devalue the term, which was the point of this exercise anyway.

This discussion, on the whole, was always gonna be a headache, but you're right I am making it more difficult for myself.