Classics Discussion: 2Pac & Kanye West

[Techniec]

man it's one thing to be a stan, but then to enforce their stannery upon the rest of us and insist we are stupid for not giving Pac 3 classics, and saying "herp derp don't compare him to Kanye".

I didn't encounter this shyt in the Jay thread. The Jay stans were mellow as fukk lol, and just did what they had to do.

Im not one to enforce anything, but anyone trying to tell me Pac doesn't have 3 classics can get the fukk outta here real talk

especially in a day and age where the term classic gets thrown around left and right

 

[Inspect Her Deck]

Im not one to enforce anything, but anyone trying to tell me Pac doesn't have 3 classics can get the fukk outta here real talk

especially in a day and age where the term classic gets thrown around left and right

but why? I came into a Jay-Z thread expecting 3 classics to be agreed upon and I didn't throw a fit when The Black Album wasn't voted a classic.

I wanna just re-emphasize what a classic means to me. Firstly it has to have quality to even be considered a classic. 808s and Heartbreaks is influential, but does it have the quality? No. So most people would agree it ain't a classic.

Now I'm not trying to compare AEOM to 808s, AEOM is far better. But I think the flaws stem from weak tracks and that results from filler that is to be expected on a double disc album. AEOM has classic songs all the way through but as an album overall, I PERSONALLY don't think it is.

For MATW and 7DT, that's another story. I was actually on the fence abut 7DT but decided to say yes. But MATW is a stone cold classic. No filler if only 1 track, killer lyricism and song writing and very concise from start to end.

And the point of these threads was to try and give value to the word classic, by making the acceptance % fairly high so that it really had to be a consensus opinion that 'x' artist has 'x' classics. Me saying AEOM is not classic might be going against the grain, and the polls disagree with me. But I feel I justified my opinion well enough for it to be respected, and not told to "get the fukk outta here".

 

[Inspect Her Deck]

@mobbinfms

I don't how much bias is present in the voting today tbh, I'm pretty skeptical.

Jay got 2 classics. Rakim could only muster up 2 classics. Now Pac has 3 and Kanye has 0 on current form. Idk what to make of it.

 

[Still Benefited]

I see what you mean. As I stated in the OP, it wasn't my actual offered definition I chose to ran with it and I should have read the consensus part more carefully. So my bad.

But in reality, I'm going off MY opinion, it's not like I'm universalising this definition for ALL to use, so it doesn't matter. But you were right to call me out on it.

I'm gonna have to edit it anyway.

So back to me. Quality is the first stage and I feel AEOM fails that hurdle because of the filler, which matters to me personally.

Yeah CD I agree with you. But for some reason the polls don't reflect that. I was hoping anti-Ye fans would let their bias aside, but I'm asking for too much.

Fair enough,but it might be time to have a thread that defines what filler is too....What defines filler to me is "Do I feel it?"....Meaning do I feel the fall off in the album as I'm listening,the fact I've seen some people site Whats ya Phone Number as a reason why Disc 1 aint classic,tells me some people judge filler all wrong in my opinion...People just look at the track list and decide its a song in there that doesn't stand up as great or iconic as the rest,and point to that as filler.

Try to look at it like is,imagine you were hooked up to a EKG machine,and the way you feel when listening to the album will decide whether you live or die....The fact is on a classic you will have iconic songs that bring high peaks.....a not so great song may level it back out,but then its right back to the high peak again....Disc 2 definitely imo has plenty of high peaks....Bad placement can level the album out for too long,which can cause you to feel that flat line coming....but AEOM Disc 1 and 2 I don't see how it has that problem....Theres not a series of songs grouped together on the album at all that level the feel out for long,and definitley nothing to cause you to flat line.

I know its opinion,but where exactly do you have a chance to die listening to All Eyez On Me?

We got albums out here getting classic recognition just for keeping nikkas alive,heart beating healthy consistently,all the way through.

Meanwhile albums that cause a not so normal spike because you got sexually aroused get penalized?So because you got sexually aroused 10 times for example,its the albums job to keep you sexually aroused for all 14 now?Consistency has to be factored in,so if there was only 4 songs outta 14 that gave that incredible high peak,but the reast just kept you level I could see the complaints....But AEOM consistently matches its high peaks again and again for me,even if its not back to back as much as it is on Disc 1.

Is this the world we in,where Disc 2 gotta lose cause disc 1 almost made nikkas hearts explode?

 

[Inspect Her Deck]

Fair enough,but it might be time to have a thread that defines what filler is too....What defines filler to me is "Do I feel it?"....Meaning do I feel the fall off in the album as I'm listening,the fact I've seen some people site Whats ya Phone Number as a reason why Disc 1 aint classic,tells me some people judge filler all wrong in my opinion...People just look at the track list and decide its a song in there that doesn't stand up as great or iconic as the rest,and point to that as filler.

Try to look at it like is,imagine you were hooked up to a EKG machine,and the way you feel when listening to the album will decide whether you live or die....The fact is on a classic you will have iconic songs that bring high peaks.....a not so great song may level it back out,but then its right back to the high peak again....Disc 2 definitely imo has plenty of high peaks....Bad placement can level the album out for too long,which can cause you to feel that flat line coming....but AEOM Disc 1 and 2 I don't see how it has that problem....Theres not a series of songs grouped together on the album at all that level the feel out for long,and definitley nothing to cause you to flat line.

I know its opinion,but where exactly do you have a chance to die listening to All Eyez On Me?

We got albums out here getting classic recognition just for keeping nikkas alive,heart beating healthy consistently,all the way through.

Meanwhile albums that cause a not so normal spike because you got sexually aroused get penalized?So because you got sexually aroused 10 times for example,its the albums job to keep you sexually aroused for all 14 now?Consistency has to be factored in,so if there was only 2 songs that gave that incredible high peak,but the reast just kept you level I could see the complaints....But AEOM consistently matches its high peaks again and again for me,even if its not back to back as much as it is on Disc 1.

Is this the world we in,where Disc 2 gotta lose cause disc 1 almost made nikkas hearts explode?

lol goddamn

my mind is a little fukked but I see where you're going with this.

to answer your question, I agree with you on disc 1, and I would never condemn an album for having 1 filler track or what can be categorised as minimal filler. Ain't No nikka doesn't ruin RD and doesn't detract from its classic status, neither does Mamacita for Aquemini and so on and so forth. So disc 1 is great in my books. Disc 2 though. It's not so much a STRETCH of bad songs that ruin momentum but it's more like 1 good 1 bad 1 good 1 bad that ruins the flow for me. So I gotta ignore your flatline analogy because that's not how it works for me. Disc 2 is way too 50/50 in my books and since it constitutes as half of the whole album, then it counts for something.

I'd say 75% of the tracks are great, but the other 25% are poor. I need a higher percentage than that in the quality department to justify being called a classic. That's why I feel that shorter albums of maybe 13/14 tracks can survive with max 2 filler tracks in my books at least. Short and sweet is the recipe to success...unless you're Wu-Tang Forever lol.

BUT, I do like your way of thinking and totally respect that it's how you came to your decision. Props to you man, a lot more rational than others.

 

[BlackMamba824]

Just to contribute to the discussion I voted Pac having 3 classics...(Me Against the World, 7 Day Theory, and AEOM)
- I can definitely see either side of the argument for/against AEOM, but using the working definition I give it the nod as a classic. Lots of classic tracks on the album although it's by no means perfect.

Kanye: I voted for CD only. Although Late Registration's best songs I always felt were just as high if not higher than CD, it wasn't as consistently as good a listen imo. (not to say that i'm comparing the two or anything)

 

[Still Benefited]

I think consensus is far more important than any one posters opinion. I may not personally think It Takes A Nation is the greatest album ever, but I could never dispute that it's a consensus GOAT contender.
I think reasonable minds can differ on what the consensus is. For AEOM, I voted yes, but it's not as if the album wasn't criticized in real time for filler and content. Some people on here think the album only got burn on the west coast @Wacky D

Ultimately there is still a degree of subjectivity because you are making a call on what the consensus is of the core community. I think that is better than a purely subjective standard.

I agree,you also are making a call on who the core community is and who's opinion matters the most...Which is where impact comes into play....There are regional classics that may not have got play everywhere,but are still considered classics in its region....So whos the consensus?does home base being really the only ones to embrace it give it less credibility as a classic?

Matter of fact let me not get into that,I shouldn't have missed the thread where yall talked about this already,don't wanna derail...To stay on topic,I'm hoping Thug Life aint in the equation only because you are defining it as a group album....Thug Life depending on when you ask,i could see myself picking over 7DT,and definitely 2PN.

 

[BlackMamba824]

I agree,you also are making a call on who the core community is and who's opinion matters the most...Which is where impact comes into play....There are regional classics that may not have got play everywhere,but are still considered classics in its region....So whos the consensus?does home base being really the ones to embrace it give it less credibility as a classic?

Matter of fact let me not get into that,I shouldn't have missed the thread where yall talked about this already,don't wanna derail...To stay on topic,I'm hoping Thug Life aint in the equation only because you are defining it as a group album....Thug Life depending on when you ask,i could see myself picking over 7DT,and definitely 2PN.

I guess I've never really thought about it that way, but it's definitely a dope cd all around.

 

[Billy Ocean]

Im not one to enforce anything, but anyone trying to tell me Pac doesn't have 3 classics can get the fukk outta here real talk

especially in a day and age where the term classic gets thrown around left and right

You one of the biggest 2pac cocksuckers on this site, you musty fakkit. Stfu.

Anyways, I got AEOM and 7day as classics from Pac.

College Dropout and Late Registration from Ye.

 

[Billy Ocean]

Pac stans in here fvcking up your thread @Inspect Her Deck

 

[Inspect Her Deck]

Pac stans in here fvcking up your thread @Inspect Her Deck

for real

I think they sabotaged the Ye votes as well


but shame on me for thinking this series would flow smoothly from start to end


I can't wait for the Nas thread

 

[infamousred]

2pac-me against the world, all eyez on me, 7 day theory
Kanye- undecided...I feel like college dropout is his best album but I'm not sure whether I'd give it the nod or not.
BTW outside of 2pac, cube and redman are the only soloists I'm giving the go for 3 classics. Epmd and mobb deep if it goes to groups.

 

[BlackMamba824]

Does anyone think it's possible for an artist to have classic albums but then have other albums that aren't necessarily "classic" but are better than the albums that are considered so?

I guess the reason I'm asking is because i see more reasons for a classic stamp on AEOM or 7DT than Me Against the World, although I personally think MATW is better than both (quality-wise; ignoring impact/influence, etc), which is why I voted it a classic as well.

 

[Inspect Her Deck]

So I have a serious question...just trying to see what y'all think?
- Does anyone think it's possible for an artist to have classic albums but then have other albums that aren't necessarily "classic" but are better than the albums that are considered so?

I guess the reason I'm asking is because i see more reasons for a classic stamp on AEOM or 7DT than Me Against the World, although I personally think MATW is better than both (quality-wise; ignoring impact/influence, etc), which is why I voted it a classic as well.

Yeah absolutely.

For example, ATLiens is less classic than Southernplayalistic in the sense of influence/impact etc. but is definitely of higher quality. Both are classics anyway, so not quite what you were looking for lol. But to some, ATLiens might not be classic, in some weird world, you get me?

Or going to two different artists.

Stress: The Extinction Agenda might not be classic, but is arguably a better album than 3 Ft. High & Rising, which is undeniably classic.

 

[kingofnyc]

Kanye West Calls 2Pac “Most Overrated Rapper in History”