Canibus says rappers don't have enough experience to make poetry like his era

[FruitOfTheVale]

Jadakiss is probably the work person you can pick, he sticks to the meter more than 99% of rappers of all time. Is extremely descriptive in his bars and has some of the best wordplay .... none of that has to do with lyricism. None of what I post in the next video is super lyrical, just perfect meter and perfectly written. 99% of Jadakiss' rhymes are literally perfect meter.


being lyrical is subjective to your intelligence, jadakiss rarely breaks out crazy vocab or strays too far from having perfect rhyme structure. His stanzas and format rhythmically are no question poetry, I dont need to pull out definitions because I've wrote poetry and made music for over 20 years. There's a million poems that prove otherwise to your point. Not even digging hard 2pac - Rose that grew from concrete in your definition wouldnt be considered poetry because its straight forward and not "tricking you by line" thats not the case. You would basically be saying Edgar Allen Poe isnt a poet at that point....so would you consider Edgar Allen Poe just lyrical? by your definition?

That kiss freestyle is lyrical, I've posted that freestyle video multiple times on this board lol.

That being said, the idea that a rhythmic structure in and of itself makes something poetry or poetic isn't true. He's flowing to a beat, people have rapped over music longer than Hip Hop's been around. Not every rap is poetic in nature nor intended to be.

Personally, my definition of poetry is this:

I feel like the point of poetry is to make subjective reality understood or "seen" in words that is normally hard to explain, describe or visualize through regular conversation or a more "literal" method. If you read a poem and you're pulled into the subjective reality of the poet, that's poetry. Some poets have more commentary while others have more imagery, but what makes it poetic is if you strongly perceive the poet's subjective reality (i.e. their essence, their internal dialogue) when you read/hear it.

The dictionary definition differs because it's written to specify the key difference between poetry and prose.

when you say lyrical and call it broad definition you are right, lyrical can mean flow to some people... vocabulary, rhythm and style. You could even say lyrically Nelly is pretty good by that account... (not compared to others in my opinion) But that doesnt give his songs value or a great foundation.

Agreed, lyricism is not always a function of the content of the song. Poetry on the other hand is definitely a function of the content and how the content is presented in the verse/stanza.

this songs first verse can be read as poetry


rap music for the most part is poetry I mean its rare that you dont get anything in meter that isnt fairly descriptive and follows a certain rhythmic pattern. XXXtentacion had some poetic songs for newschool. Tyler's music is poetic. Jcole has fairly poetic songs and verses. Its all different flavors... you could say Pimp C was pretty poetic spitting pimp shyt honestly. Lyrical style is more how you deliver your poetry and it comes in many forms. Where Biggie and Pac are lyrical, Bone Thugs, Big Pun, Eminem are also poetic and lyrical in their own way. Just like poets of the past, not every poet is created the same.

I think technically everyone is correct honesty, I was gonna say drill rappers and shyt arent poetic.... I guess they are just at a different level. Even Japanese wrote death poems for their warriors:

I agree that the first verse is poetic, it verbalized his subjective experience of being high in a way that was visual. The 3rd verse on the other hand is not poetic, its prosaic.

"I got a big ol blunt, I'm lampin on my front porch
about to put a torch to it, then Coco said don't do it
Please don't hit that shyt in front of my little 4 year old
Son, she sent him inside the house meanwhile my Sheri steadily rolled one
after the other, then another cuz I'm rolling in the do'
So we rollin' the indo, as if the kid didn't know
He's looking through the window, yo, why we tryna hide it?
To make up or grow to be ignorant and misguided
about the bud, now I have to play the part of the advisor
because the bud is just the tasty tantalizer
Just the bud, not the beer, cuz the bud makes me wiser...
(Figaro) So I said come here little man
And with his little hand, he grabbed the pipe
A lesson in buddah blessin', not too young, just right
So he started blazin', it was amazin'
My lungs are black and shriveled up like a raisin
But who am I to deny the kid a try
At nature's little way of sayin' hi?"

This verse is a prosaic story told more or less like how you would tell a story to a friend. It's a dope storytelling verse but to say it's poetic is to say that any rhyme is poetic because its a rhyme with rhythm. That isn't what poetry is, unless you want to expand the definition of poetry to include nursery rhymes.

The Sharp-edged sword, unsheathed,

cuts through the void.

Within the raging fire

a cool wind blows.

thats still poetry even though its different than others culturally or even a haiku

Yeah that is poetry... It isn't literally about a sharp edged sword cutting through "the void". It's evocative and invokes the idea that if you want to surpass whatever obstacle that's in front of you, you have to stay sharp. The next two lines aren't literally about a cool wind blowing within a raging fire, it's saying that even when things are going horribly, there's a light at the end of the tunnel if you look for it. The wording is intentional because it evokes a deeper meaning.

I think technical skill is what canibus meant to project really. Drake, Kendrick, Jcole ... newschool all is poetic but its not really pushing any technical limits of "poetic" capacity or "lyrical" capability. Like Rakim pushed the envelope and developed rap into something fresh. An Artist like Busta Rhymes pushes his technical capability to the limit on alot of songs. Big Pun etc... even Biggie on Notorious Thugs did. You dont really hear new artists really try to cut heads off with music. More so they are writing "poppier" songs or adding "flavor" for a creative force. Tyler the creator isnt technical at all, but he pushes creative limits on his songs to make up for it. You wont hear new artists like, smash through a brick wall and hit you with some of the most technical mind blowing shyt of all time. That doesnt make it not lyrical or poetic.... its just extremely safe zone shyt. Alot of artists in the world cant even really break out of their own mold... old and young, if we are being honest here. You couldnt ask Drake or Mase to rap with Twista or Bone Thugs. Thats more of a second layer problem beyond technical ability and skill level. Even if you rap like Pac on Thug Luv, adaptability shows a high level of technical skill compared to most people in the entire world. Biggie and Pac both showed this in a wide range of songs.

I honestly don't think that's what he meant. Life experience isn't necessary to have technical ability in rapping, it's a skillset you can practice whether you have life experience or not.

I smoke like a chimney
Matter fact I smoke like a gun when a killa see his enemy
I smoke like Bob Marley did
Add to that.....
That I smoke like the hippies did back in the '70s
Spit with the finishing touch
Get this, that I'ma finish you
Before I finish the dutch...
I get high like the birds and the planes
I get high when bullets hit faces
After words are exchanged
I get a rush off the blunt and the walls
You understand?
Like the M-5 pedal, when its touchin' the floor
I get high 'cause fukk it
What's better to do?
And I'ma never give a fukk
'Cause I'm better than you

^nothing super lyrical in that, but very poetic ... I would even go as far as saying getting high is actually poetic in itself

Similes are a poetic device but often a lazy one that doesn't require you to think outside the box that much. Personally I don't see much poetry in this verse but to each his own.

 

[JJ Lions]

nikka been dead to me since he pulled a notepad during a rap battle

And got bodied

 

[LiveFromLondon]

They're from the Nelly linage of melodic yodelling

Nelly was a actually good at what he did though, nikka would skate on beats effortlessly

 

[Greenhornet]

That kiss freestyle is lyrical, I've posted that freestyle video multiple times on this board lol.

That being said, the idea that a rhythmic structure in and of itself makes something poetry or poetic isn't true. He's flowing to a beat, people have rapped over music longer than Hip Hop's been around. Not every rap is poetic in nature nor intended to be.



Similes are a poetic device but often a lazy one that doesn't require you to think outside the box that much. Personally I don't see much poetry in this verse but to each his own.

Like you said in the last line though, that doesnt make it any more or less poetic
saying rhythm doesnt make poetry is obvious and kind of a cop out

you can take any rap verse and remove the beat and it still stands by itself if its written with structure
jadakiss can do his whole discography acapella and it still holds up. Just because its considered rap doesnt mean its not poetic
wouldnt Hamilton prove that wrong in the opposite way?
you could take Edgar Allen Poe and apply it over a beat, that wouldnt make it not a poem anymore... how lyrical things were or wasnt wouldnt change that

this poem by edgar allen poe is nearly same structure as Jadakiss' bars

I'm just saying if you go by the box you try to put poetry in... alot of classic actual poets wouldnt be considered poets anymore


Victor Hugo

This Plath poem is barely different than a Lil Uzi Vert or XXXtentacion song

 

[FruitOfTheVale]

Like you said in the last line though, that doesnt make it any more or less poetic
saying rhythm doesnt make poetry is obvious and kind of a cop out

you can take any rap verse and remove the beat and it still stands by itself if its written with structure

Any rap verse would stand up as a rap verse, not all stand up as a poem. Rap verses are written with rhythm in mind so yeah they don't need a beat to embody the rap qualities of it. Similarly, a poem doesn't have to be read aloud to embody the poetic qualities of a poem.

jadakiss can do his whole discography acapella and it still holds up. Just because its considered rap doesnt mean its not poetic
wouldnt Hamilton prove that wrong in the opposite way?
you could take Edgar Allen Poe and apply it over a beat, that wouldnt make it not a poem anymore... how lyrical things were or wasnt wouldnt change that

this poem by edgar allen poe is nearly same structure as Jadakiss' bars

I'm just saying if you go by the box you try to put poetry in... alot of classic actual poets wouldnt be considered poets anymore

I don't agree with this premise because the Edgar Allen Poe piece above is clearly poetic even by the definition I provided earlier:

I feel like the point of poetry is to make subjective reality understood or "seen" in words that is normally hard to explain, describe or visualize through regular conversation or a more "literal" method. If you read a poem and you're pulled into the subjective reality of the poet, that's poetry. Some poets have more commentary while others have more imagery, but what makes it poetic is if you strongly perceive the poet's subjective reality (i.e. their essence, their internal dialogue) when you read/hear it.

Reading that poem I picked up on the subjective reality of the poet depicted in the piece in an instant. He isn't literally, prosaically telling you that he's depressed and misunderstood, but that's what its actually about. The last five lines of that are almost literally the same as what Nas says in The World Is Yours:

I need a new nikka, for this dark cloud to follow
'Cuz while its over me it's too dark to see tomorrow

Victor Hugo

Not gonna pretend I fully understand this piece so I'll reserve comment

This Plath poem is barely different than a Lil Uzi Vert or XXXtentacion song

This is definitely poetic, the writer clearly doesn't literally think that she "made them up inside my head". There's a deeper meaning that is open to interpretation.

I don't think you're fully understanding what my argument is.

 

[MIC Que]

Ehh def ain’t as many lyricists as in the past but there’s still a few that impress me most just too lazy to look and listen . Drakeo pen was crazy but he gone now r.i.p . Sker McGurt…nikkas just don’t rap like it’s the 90s no more so folks dismiss rappers totally and don’t even hear what they saying.

 

[MIKE SPLEAN]

That’s correct
30 year olds now sound like early 20 yo rappers from the 90s

 

[Cadillac]

When you think of the biggest rappers of the 90s, who all was really poetic? Wu Tang, Nas, Pac, Andre 3K, Mos Def, Jay-Z, Kool Keith, Freestyle Fellowship, MF DOOM, Common, Redman... They're acknowledged for being more poetic than most. On the flipside you got Face, DMX, Jadakiss, Styles P, Pharcyde, Souls of Mischief, etc... they're all acknowledged for being dope but not in a poetic kind of way. A lot of backpack rappers spit very similarly to SoM, which is to say, complex rhyme schemes but not much content. On the flipside, a lot of street rappers take after Jadakiss or Scarface, which is to say, hard punchlines, or vivid storytelling. Very few rappers in this era successfully capture the poetry that made rappers like Nas and GZA so distinctive, but then again, neither did most of their peers.

Similarly, most R&B singers ain't Curtis Mayfield, D'Angelo or Raphael Saadiq. They do other things incredibly well, but poetic songwriting is rare.

do you know what poetry is? or what is poetic?

Scarface is one of the defining poetic writers in rap

you dont make songs and verses like he does from Now I feel Ya, to his verse on This Cant be Life and not be a poet

hes more of a poet than everybody you named as "poetic" except Pac and Nas and arguabbly 3stacks who i have tying him

 

[FruitOfTheVale]

do you know what poetry is? or what is poetic?

Scarface is one of the defining poetic writers in rap

you dont make songs and verses like he does from Now I feel Ya, to his verse on This Cant be Life and not be a poet

hes more of a poet than everybody you named as "poetic" except Pac and Nas and arguabbly 3stacks who i have tying him

I already shared my definition in the thread, I don't agree with that statement and I've heard his whole discog up to Emeritus. It is what it is.

 

[Cadillac]

I agree that distilling a complex idea into a "simple" bar is poetic, I don't agree that that's the only definition of lyricism or poetry.

The reason I listed the Wu Tang as poetic is because a lot of their music uses allegory, imagery and metaphor in a poetic way. Are Rae or Ghost typically saying something profound? No, but neither does a lot of poetry. Sometimes, poetry is about painting a picture. Both Ghost and Rae weave their slang with intricate storytelling to paint a crystal clear picture of 90s drug era New York, the poetry is the way they paint the picture.

that doesnt necessarilly mean its poetic

the base of their style and platform has it to where all rappers can be labled as "poets" yes. But there is still a difference due to content, and writing and delievery that makes a rapper different than a poet. Espescially with the now near 50 years of hip hop we have

Wu tang are good lyricist, but NONE of them are great as poets to the extent of a scarface, 3stacks or even a Kendrick and wale.

using literary devices doesnt make you a poet it just makes you a good lyricist or linguist.

painting a picture doesnt mean also your a good poet, there are poets alot of them that are abstract from Li Young Lee to even Saul williams that dont paint a picture their main point is to instill a emotion and thought into you the reader.

Ghost and rae dont do that, their shyt is just brag rap/mafioso shyt. they are not poets like a Scarface

 

[Cadillac]

I already shared my definition in the thread, I don't agree with that statement and I've heard his whole discog up to Emeritus. It is what it is.

and you have your right to that, and i have my right to say you wrong in my opinion. some of the people you calling poets(Jay) and people you calling arent(Face) is backwards

anyone who studies poetry will tell you that

Jay is a lyricist writer, his focus is entirely in trying to impress you with his linguistic skills, no one would consider him a poet let alone in the same extent as a Face.

 

[FruitOfTheVale]

that doesnt necessarilly mean its poetic

the base of their style and platform has it to where all rappers can be labled as "poets" yes. But there is still a difference due to content, and writing and delievery that makes a rapper different than a poet. Espescially with the now near 50 years of hip hop we have

Wu tang are good lyricist, but NONE of them are great as poets to the extent of a scarface, 3stacks or even a Kendrick and wale.

using literary devices doesnt make you a poet it just makes you a good lyricist or linguist.

painting a picture doesnt mean also your a good poet, there are poets alot of them that are abstract from Li Young Lee to even Saul williams that dont paint a picture their main point is to instill a emotion and thought into you the reader.

Ghost and rae dont do that, their shyt is just brag rap/mafioso shyt. they are not poets like a Scarface

Naw instilling an emotion into the reader is being lyrical, poetry concerns what the content is actually about. This isn't a new conversation, people have been discussing whether all songs are poetry for decades.

 

[Cadillac]

Naw instilling an emotion into the reader is being lyrical, poetry concerns what the content is actually about. This isn't a new conversation, people have been discussing whether all songs are poetry for decades.

poetry is all that. there is no limiting to what it is. you can even express emotions through free verse which has no meter/rhytmn or rhyme. So emotion is not just limited to lyrical. The poet i brought up Li Young Lee is not described as "lyrical" by some(he is to me) because he uses no metere, rhyme or anything he simply uses only metaphors and allegories and expresses emotions through it.you cant narrow it down to what you want it to be.

i know this isnt a new conversation. some people say it is and some say they arent. But right now we are talking about writing in hip hop, and its pretty easy and clear who are the poetically influenced writers and ones that are just pure rappers/lyricist if you listen to their words, how they use devices, anagram/wording, etc.

 

[FruitOfTheVale]

and you have your right to that, and i have my right to say you wrong in my opinion. some of the people you calling poets(Jay) and people you calling arent(Face) is backwards

anyone who studies poetry will tell you that

Jay is a lyricist writer, his focus is entirely in trying to impress you with his linguistic skills, no one would consider him a poet let alone in the same extent as a Face.

I'll admit Jay-Z isn't the best example, he had a few tracks on Rreasonable Doubt I thought of that are more poetic than most but in general yeah you're right he doesn't write poetically.

In general though Scarface's writing isn't poetic like that either. He has poetic verses from time to time but most of the time his writing style is more like these verses:

Spoiler: Emeritus

I'm just another ghetto boy
Single parent upbringing, mama's pride and joy
Dad died 'fore I got a chance to meet that dude
So I was raised in the hood, in the streets I grew
Seen it all, it ain't too much I ain't done yet
Let my nuts hang, nikka I ain't scared of shyt
Seen death in my eyes, musta not have been time
Cause I'm the last of this motherfukkin breed of mine
Yeah and can't nobody tell you no different
The nerve of this motherfukker sayin I'm tripping
The nerve of you motherfukkers questionin this
When I'm as real as a realass nikka can get
And I was raised with that G-code embedded in my blood
And I would rather die than tell on a nikka from my hood
Or tell it on a motherfukker period
I take the code to the game that serious
The streets got rules, it's certain shyt you don't do like
Sayin it was me when you knowin that it was you
It's not defamation if what I'm sayin is true
Picked a fight, got beat, now this p*ssy is tryin to sue
bytch, you knowin what the outcome was
fukk with one fukk with all, we were bound by blood
Not the blood of the gang but the blood of James
It's out of love for this nikka we pump slugs in frames
That's the type of dude you're listenin to
Soft to you for a minute then I'm trippin with you
And since you want it with me I'll position them goons
They carry out the order to this mission and boom
Ya out, now what was all this chit-chat about?
A word from the wise, keep my dikk out ya mouth
Apparently I been too lenient on dudes
Cause you nikkas done forgot who the streets belong to
I'm the motherfukkin king, I'm the motherfukkin mayor
I'm the president, the don, the boss of all players
Remember me, the one you got your idea from?
Well I'm still here, planted on this block I slung
So fresh and so clean, complicated rhyme schemes
You nikkas is monotone, ain't no fukkin with heat
I'm a motherfukkin g and if I'm lyin then poof
May the Lord strike me dead in this motherfukkin booth
I'm the truth, emeritus, the F-A-C
The M to the O to the motherfukkin B
OG, to the critics analyzing my shyt
Thinkin so-and-so is better, you can suck my dikk
Cause it's been 20 years and counting and I still ain't bouncing
fukk the club I'm a true thug, the realest nikka out here
Yeah I listen to them bullshyt caps
Or how they so-called shine but that bullshyt's wack
Steady on my grind and when I pull this strap
I'mma show you what I mean by "These fools just rap"
Cause I'm just as greedy as the next man is
I see em sellin and then I'mma feed my kids
And it is what it is, you can take it how you want it
Motherfukk who I offend they can meet me on the corner
It don't matter who you is or where you come from punk
When you see me that's the motherfukkin bell, bytch, jump
Cause I'm tired of you nikkas disrespecting the great
I am legend, it ain't nobody fukkin with Face
My catalog's timeless
I could go on for days and days
Let me count the ways I got paid
It's over when I leave this stage
I'mma turn the page, say goodbye to Face
Wave

Spoiler: In Cold Blood

I started small time, dope game, pushin on the corner
Twenty cent cook-up, fifty flippers if you want 'em
Full of formaldehyde, my clothes wreakin marijuana
Cops rollin up on us, my neighborhood's like a sauna
Pistol-grippin, insurin won't nobody run up on us
But if they do, fukk 'em, we murderous nickel-dome 'em
I ain't playin no games, I'm on a mission fo' the change
Motherfukk being a lame, I'm ten toes in the game - deep
I can't slip, this whole world want me sleep
See I hustle like a predator and prey on the weak
And playin for keeps, 'cause see, it's a thin red line
Between a nikka gettin his and me gettin mine
And plus I'm a nikka with that feelin like it's my time
And anybody standin' in the way of that is dyin'
I bust nine—how many times I gotta warn you?
I ain't the one, be pushin buttons in the sight of my gun
I'm the real live version of the Corleone family
So I spit this clearly, so you hoes'll understand me

Spoiler: The Diary

I brought my chopper and my hard hat
The shyt's fukked up now show a nikka where the war at
'Cause I'm about to clean house
Stick this A.K. up your ass and blow that fukker clean out
'Cause you nikkas in the wrong
You came up short and now we fin to get it going on
I ain't your average motherfukker
You step out of line and watch a motherfukker bust ya
'Cause you done came at me the wrong way
I ain't no Clint Eastwood, nikka, and you done picked the wrong day
So bring your ass to the battleground
Rat-a-tat-tat, like that is how my gat'll sound
Avoid no nikkas 'cause nikkas be human
I squeeze the trigger and nikkas be movin'
'Cause I don't point it in the air and pull the trigger (Why?)
I'd rather point it at your ass and watch the nikka die
I gives a fukk about your team mates
When it's all said and done you're gonna wish you never seen 'face
You shoulda seen that lil' nikka Brad
Came through here, seen David done that nikka bad
And your homies better stand still
Don't make my brother Warren bust one of you bytches 'cause the man will
Don't bring your ass to my picnic
'Cause I done had it up to here with all you nikkas talkin' that bytch shyt
So you better get your shyt right
I'm from the state where you rarely see a motherfukkin' fist fight
It's all about the gun blast
So you can miss me with that bullshyt you spittin' with your punk ass
It's the diary of a born killer
Don't have to worry about me fallin' off this thang cause I'm a strong nikka
Doubt my regard of the hard
With nikkas behind me from East Oakland to the South Park
I've got the mind of the man right behind ya
You can run, you can hide but I'll still find ya
Like I say there's no getaway
And I'm gon' have it where your family'll have to throw your shyt away
It's the return of the real nikkas
I'm prejudiced to a certain extent but still I kill nikkas
I'll bust that ass on the fukkin' double
So push on with that ho shyt, bytch, cause you don't want trouble
So get your ass up off my shoestrings
And let your shermed nikka do things

Most of his lyrics are written like he's talking to you and are meant to be taken literal which makes it more prosaic than poetic.

 

[FruitOfTheVale]

poetry is all that. there is no limiting to what it is. you can even express emotions through free verse which has no meter/rhytmn or rhyme. So emotion is not just limited to lyrical. The poet i brought up Li Young Lee is not described as "lyrical" by some(he is to me) because he uses no metere, rhyme or anything he simply uses only metaphors and allegories and expresses emotions through it.you cant narrow it down to what you want it to be.

There is no limit to what can be expressed in poetry but yeah there are limits to what is poetry. Poetry and prose are opposites, prose is not poetry.

Lol what you call "narrowing it down" is actually the definition of the words which I already shared in the thread. People misuse words all the time, this ain't no different.

i know this isnt a new conversation. some people say it is and some say they arent. But right now we are talking about writing in hip hop, and its pretty easy and clear who are the poetically influenced writers and ones that are just pure rappers/lyricist if you listen to their words, how they use devices, anagram/wording, etc.

I agree that it's easy and clear to see who the poetically influenced writers are but a lot of folks conflate any rhyme with poetry, the two aren't the same.