Canibus says rappers don't have enough experience to make poetry like his era

[Flav]

Yeah we got different definitions of poetic. Scarface and DMX are great songwriters and good lyricists. Scarface in particular is a better songwriter than Nas or GZA. Would I describe the average song from Scarface as "poetic"? No. Doesn't mean I'm saying he isn't a good writer.

EDIT: Yeah that song from DMX is poetically written, most of his are more written like he's talking to you directly than in that sort of style though. Same thing with Scarface.

Most of the rappers you named as not poetic is poetic. They are all telling stories on a poetic level. Passing Me By is pure poetry over a beat. Same with Jadakiss Why and Souls 93 Till.You could write their songs down and people would think it was good poetry. I’m baffled because you are a rapper and don’t know this.

 

[Flav]

I never seen a Man Cry Till I seen a Man Die is not a poetic

What the hell? That song is poetry to the fullest! What the hell is going on on here?

 

[FruitOfTheVale]

Most of the rappers you named as not poetic is poetic. They are all telling stories on a poetic level. Passing Me By is pure poetry over a beat. Same with Jadakiss Why and Souls 93 Till.You could write their songs down and people would think it was good poetry. I’m baffled because you are a rapper and don’t know this.

Most of the rappers you named as not poetic is poetic. They are all telling stories on a poetic level. Passing Me By is pure poetry over a beat. Same with Jadakiss Why and Souls 93 Till.You could write their songs down and people would think it was good poetry. I’m baffled because you are a rapper and don’t know this.

Different definition of poetic

Using the Pharcyde example you just gave, it's obviously a classic song but is it because its poetic?

Spoiler: lyrics

Now in my younger days I used to sport a shag
When I went to school I carried lunch in a bag
With an apple for my teacher 'cause I knew I'd get a kiss
Always got mad when the class was dismissed
But when it was in session, I always had a question
I would raise my hand to make her stagger to my desk and
Help me with my problem, it was never much
Just a trick, to smell her scent and try to sneak a touch
Oh, how I wish I could hold her hand and give her a hug
She was married to the man, he was a thug
His name was Lee, he drove a Z
He'd pick her up from school promptly at 3 o' clock
I was on her jock, yes indeedy I wrote graffiti on the bus
First I'd write her name then carve a plus
With my name last, on the looking glass
I seen her yesterday but still I had to let her pass


[Verse 2: SlimKid 3]
When I dream of fairytales I think of me and Shelly
See she's my type of hype and I can't stand when brothers tell me
That I should quit chasin' and look for something better
But the smile that she shows makes me a go-getter
I haven't gone as far as asking if I could get with her
I just play it by ear and hope she gets the picture
I'm shooting for her heart, got my finger on the trigger
She could be my broad and I could be her nikka
But, all I can do was stare
Back as kids we used to kiss when we played truth or dare
Now she's more sophisticated, highly edu-ma-cated
Not at all overrated, I think I need a prayer
To get in her book and it looks rather dry
I guess a twinkle in her eye is just a twinkle in her eye
Although she's crazy stepping, I'll try and stop her stride
'Cause I won't have no more of this passing me by

[Verse 3: Imani]
Time for me to voice my opinion can't be pretending she didn't have me
Sprung like a chicken, chasing my tail like a doggie
She was kind of like a star, thinking I was like a fan
Damn, she looked good, downside: she had a man
He was a rooty-toot, a nincompoop
She told me soon your little birdie's gonna fly the coop
She was a flake like corn and I was born not to understand
By letting her pass I had proved to be a better man


[Verse 4: Fatlip]
Now there she goes again, the dopest Ethiopian
And now the world around me begins moving in slow motion when-
Ever she happens to walk by - why does the apple of my eye
Overlook and disregard my feelings no matter how much I try?
Wait, no, I did not really pursue my little princess with persistence
And I was so low-key that she was unaware of my existence
From a distance I desired her, secretly admired her
Wired her a letter to get her
And it went, "My dear, my dear, my dear, you do not know me but I know you
Very well now let me tell you about the feelings I have for you
When I try or make some sort of attempt, I simp
Damn I wish I wasn't such a wimp
'Cause then I would let you know that I love you so and if I was your man then I would be true
The only lying I would do is in the bed with you"
Then I signed "Sincerely, the one who loves you dearly, PS Love Me Tender"
The letter came back three days later: Return to Sender, damn

first three verses I'll straight up say are not poetic. Fatlip's verse is moreso than the other three. I could break down why I think that, but I also think poetry is subjective so I'll leave it at that to me, this song isn't particularly poetic. The songwriting is incredible but not because its incredibly poetic.

 

[FruitOfTheVale]

Nobody in Wu Tang is lyrically fukking with DMX or Scarface, it's not even close, they colorful language doesn't make them lyrical

like I said Nas line I never sleep cuz sleep is the cousin of death is a lyrical bar

not because he's making a comparison to sleep and the death as if that's clever

he's not saying anything clever, he's making profound statement and saying a lot with little words

The meaning of the bar is complex, He's encompassing the entirety of being a street rapper in one bar, you can envision his entire lifestyle is in that bar

He never sleeps cuz sleep is the cousin death, in the streets you have to be aware of your surroundings or all time, or get you caught lacking you end up dead, like King Von, King Von was sleep and met his death, that's the reason why Nas is still alive after being around all these dangerous situations and people in the rap game, and King Von got killed just as he started, he mentally wasn't prepared for what he was getting himself into and caught sleep, lackin as they say now

It also means you gotta stay working you gotta stay up, you can't get comfortable, because you will fall off, you will go broke your career would be over, that's rap death

how many times you heard puffy say he don't sleep, steve harvey and others, it's about being production, staying sharp being on your square at all times

You get all of this infomation out of a single little bar that's not complicated at all, that's what being poetic is, and being lyrically is doing that poerty in music format

People confuse that rappity rap shyt for lyricism, and that's not what lyricism is, that's why people called it lyrical miracle

I agree that distilling a complex idea into a "simple" bar is poetic, I don't agree that that's the only definition of lyricism or poetry.

The reason I listed the Wu Tang as poetic is because a lot of their music uses allegory, imagery and metaphor in a poetic way. Are Rae or Ghost typically saying something profound? No, but neither does a lot of poetry. Sometimes, poetry is about painting a picture. Both Ghost and Rae weave their slang with intricate storytelling to paint a crystal clear picture of 90s drug era New York, the poetry is the way they paint the picture.

 

[Master Teacher]

What the hell? That song is poetry to the fullest! What the hell is going on on here?

That was the point I was making, he said Scarface was poetic compared to Redman it was a rhetorical question I forgot to put a question mark

 

[FruitOfTheVale]

What the hell? That song is poetry to the fullest! What the hell is going on on here?

He meant the opposite, he said that rhetorically.

 

[ISO]

The problem with that is that rappers now haven't really evolved lyricism beyond what it was 20 years ago, which is why a lot of the shyt is redundant.

What else is there to do lyric wise

The rappers now have kicked it forward with the delivery of the raps

 

[Metal Face]

Rap hasn't been poetic/impressively lyrical in over 15 years

 

[FruitOfTheVale]

What else is there to do lyric wise

The rappers now have kicked it forward with the delivery of the raps

That's a good question, imo one of the main reasons lyricism hasn't evolved as much is because the majority of artists don't want to take creative risks outside of the narrow box of what gets marketed. You can rap/write about literally *anything* in any way you see fit... The majority of rappers these days don't reflect that fact. The experimentation is happening with rap delivery, not rap writing.

 

[Mindfield333]

It’s wild how I used to be a Stan for him lowkey but now I can’t listen because it’s a chore to me.

I don’t think canibus is better than Ka to be honest

 

[FruitOfTheVale]

You get all of this infomation out of a single little bar that's not complicated at all, that's what being poetic is, and being lyrically is doing that poerty in music format

People confuse that rappity rap shyt for lyricism, and that's not what lyricism is, that's why people called it lyrical miracle

I feel like the point of poetry is to make subjective reality understood or "seen" in words that is normally hard to explain, describe or visualize through regular conversation or a more "literal" method. If you read a poem and you're pulled into the subjective reality of the poet, that's poetry. Some poets have more commentary while others have more imagery, but what makes it poetic is if you strongly perceive the poet's subjective reality (i.e. their essence, their internal dialogue) when you read/hear it.

 

[FruitOfTheVale]

Most of the rappers you named as not poetic is poetic. They are all telling stories on a poetic level. Passing Me By is pure poetry over a beat. Same with Jadakiss Why and Souls 93 Till.You could write their songs down and people would think it was good poetry. I’m baffled because you are a rapper and don’t know this.

Coming back to this post, I agree that Jadakiss (and even Styles P to a degree) has some poetic elements in his verses, and sometimes songs, like the one you mentioned, but the poetry takes a backseat to the theater in their raps 90% of the time. They have a battle rap type of style, typically they don't really go out of their way to find the words to resolve their internal dialogue in writing. Most of the time they rap to impress the listener on a "goals" level or punchline level, which is a different type of writing.

 

[Greenhornet]

terrible example of rappers who arent poetic lol
especially DMX, styles and jada are also savants.... someone already posted scarface on smile... let alone a handful of masterful shyt with Geto Boys alone... Pharcyde? come on now


most rap thats not poetic is just party rap or gang shyt

it can still be good though obviously... but when you have uninspired 808 beats and your ops coming to kill you, or I fukk women, or I get money... its not that great of music.
alot of it is experience, people cant disregard that shyt is different now. People arent outside like that or scraping like they used to. Kids aint doing wild shyt, its all preconceived and not as exciting in reality. But it is more convenient and to the point.

you aint gonna get like Kriss Kross - I missed the bus... (even though they didnt write it) you're gonna get "my mom dropped me off at the bus stop, shes very worried and picks me up 5 houses down to make sure I'm okay. Nobody is writing a song about that, if you miss the bus now someone's gonna take you to school in their lexus land with low mileage, no more walking the streets until your feet get callous

 

[FruitOfTheVale]

terrible example of rappers who arent poetic lol
especially DMX, styles and jada are also savants.... someone already posted scarface on smile... let alone a handful of masterful shyt with Geto Boys alone... Pharcyde? come on now

If Pharcyde and Jadakiss are terrible examples post three songs of them being poetic. A lot of folks have one song where they try something out they don't normally do, doesn't mean it's a good example of the majority of how they write.

I think its more than a few folks ITT who conflate poetry and lyricism. Dictionary definition of poetry:

"Poetry is a form of literature that uses aesthetic and often rhythmic qualities of language − such as phonaesthetics, sound symbolism, and metre − to evoke meanings in addition to, or in place of, a prosaic ostensible meaning. A poem is a literary composition written utilising this principle."

In other words, poetry uses a specific choice of words, rhythm and metre to evoke more meanings or a different meaning than what the lines in the poem would mean if only taken literally at face value.

Lyricism is broader than poetry, lyricism can also be prosaic, comedic, philosophic, etc. Poetry is more specific. Might as well share the dictionary definition of lyricism while we're at it:

"an artist's expression of emotion in an imaginative and beautiful way; the quality of being lyrical."

I never said that Jadakiss et. all aren't lyrical but that's how a lot of y'all are taking it lol.

most rap thats not poetic is just party rap or gang shyt

It's possible to write poetic rhymes about either of those topics, but yeah most people don't.

 

[Greenhornet]

If Pharcyde and Jadakiss are terrible examples post three songs of them being poetic. A lot of folks have one song where they try something out they don't normally do, doesn't mean it's a good example of the majority of how they write.

Jadakiss is probably the work person you can pick, he sticks to the meter more than 99% of rappers of all time. Is extremely descriptive in his bars and has some of the best wordplay .... none of that has to do with lyricism. None of what I post in the next video is super lyrical, just perfect meter and perfectly written. 99% of Jadakiss' rhymes are literally perfect meter.


being lyrical is subjective to your intelligence, jadakiss rarely breaks out crazy vocab or strays too far from having perfect rhyme structure. His stanzas and format rhythmically are no question poetry, I dont need to pull out definitions because I've wrote poetry and made music for over 20 years. There's a million poems that prove otherwise to your point. Not even digging hard 2pac - Rose that grew from concrete in your definition wouldnt be considered poetry because its straight forward and not "tricking you by line" thats not the case. You would basically be saying Edgar Allen Poe isnt a poet at that point....so would you consider Edgar Allen Poe just lyrical? by your definition?

when you say lyrical and call it broad definition you are right, lyrical can mean flow to some people... vocabulary, rhythm and style. You could even say lyrically Nelly is pretty good by that account... (not compared to others in my opinion) But that doesnt give his songs value or a great foundation.

this songs first verse can be read as poetry


rap music for the most part is poetry I mean its rare that you dont get anything in meter that isnt fairly descriptive and follows a certain rhythmic pattern. XXXtentacion had some poetic songs for newschool. Tyler's music is poetic. Jcole has fairly poetic songs and verses. Its all different flavors... you could say Pimp C was pretty poetic spitting pimp shyt honestly. Lyrical style is more how you deliver your poetry and it comes in many forms. Where Biggie and Pac are lyrical, Bone Thugs, Big Pun, Eminem are also poetic and lyrical in their own way. Just like poets of the past, not every poet is created the same.

I think technically everyone is correct honesty, I was gonna say drill rappers and shyt arent poetic.... I guess they are just at a different level. Even Japanese wrote death poems for their warriors:


The Sharp-edged sword, unsheathed,

cuts through the void.

Within the raging fire

a cool wind blows.

thats still poetry even though its different than others culturally or even a haiku


I think technical skill is what canibus meant to project really. Drake, Kendrick, Jcole ... newschool all is poetic but its not really pushing any technical limits of "poetic" capacity or "lyrical" capability. Like Rakim pushed the envelope and developed rap into something fresh. An Artist like Busta Rhymes pushes his technical capability to the limit on alot of songs. Big Pun etc... even Biggie on Notorious Thugs did. You dont really hear new artists really try to cut heads off with music. More so they are writing "poppier" songs or adding "flavor" for a creative force. Tyler the creator isnt technical at all, but he pushes creative limits on his songs to make up for it. You wont hear new artists like, smash through a brick wall and hit you with some of the most technical mind blowing shyt of all time. That doesnt make it not lyrical or poetic.... its just extremely safe zone shyt. Alot of artists in the world cant even really break out of their own mold... old and young, if we are being honest here. You couldnt ask Drake or Mase to rap with Twista or Bone Thugs. Thats more of a second layer problem beyond technical ability and skill level. Even if you rap like Pac on Thug Luv, adaptability shows a high level of technical skill compared to most people in the entire world. Biggie and Pac both showed this in a wide range of songs.


I smoke like a chimney
Matter fact I smoke like a gun when a killa see his enemy
I smoke like Bob Marley did
Add to that.....
That I smoke like the hippies did back in the '70s
Spit with the finishing touch
Get this, that I'ma finish you
Before I finish the dutch...
I get high like the birds and the planes
I get high when bullets hit faces
After words are exchanged
I get a rush off the blunt and the walls
You understand?
Like the M-5 pedal, when its touchin' the floor
I get high 'cause fukk it
What's better to do?
And I'ma never give a fukk
'Cause I'm better than you

^nothing super lyrical in that, but very poetic ... I would even go as far as saying getting high is actually poetic in itself