Black/Minority Women Goin' Against White Feminists On Twitter :lupe:
- Thread starter DaChampIsHere
- Start date
we need people like this to post on the coli
Actually, there's a lot of subconscious behavior in every example you've mentioned:
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...es-unconscious-bias-racism-not-always-racists
http://www.theguardian.com/news/oliver-burkeman-s-blog/2013/aug/15/racist-sexist-you-are-more (notice how this link mentions subconscious sexism as well)
http://www.theroot.com/buzz/why-some-people-dont-know-theyre-racist
http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1870408,00.html
http://www.afr.com/p/national/work_space/employers_need_to_tackle_unconscious_VpxHWUyLGreGl611ezYAVN
http://www.livescience.com/16339-culture-racism.html
You honestly think the majority of white people "admit it every day?" Come on, that's a laughable claim.
I never said Black men were just "hanging out on street corners," but the fact is that most stops and frisks happen in contexts that men are more likely to be involved in, including things like hanging out on street corners. You also completely ignored that men commit more violent crimes and own more guns than women, so that unequal profiling isn't coming out of nowhere, as you're trying to pretend. This just isn't a good example for your argument, since "privilege" refers to something that happens in an otherwise equal situation, in which there is no difference between the two parties, which isn't the case for violent crime and guns with respect to Black men and women.
Of course they have denied inequality. Look at the rest of the people I'm arguing with. If you don't think DaChampisHere is directly arguing that, you haven't been reading his posts. It's obvious that most Black institutions are dominated by male leadership. It's obvious that when we talk about Black history, we talk mostly about men. It's obvious that most Black families are just single mothers and their children. It's obvious that Black men who have sex with many women are praised, while Black women who have sex with many men are criticized for it. If you honestly think that has nothing to do with Black men, then you're not thinking clearly. It doesn't get more concrete than that. Regardless, here's some more scholarly information and research on specifically Black gender inequality, including it's complex connections with race:
http://www.dallasnews.com/lifestyle...r-sheds-light-on-sexism-in-black-churches.ece
https://www.duo.uio.no/bitstream/handle/10852/25447/JaneKLarsenThesisx30.04.06.pdf?sequence=1
http://muse.jhu.edu/journals/callaloo/summary/v021/21.2carbado.html
http://books.google.com/books/about/Black_Men_on_Race_Gender_and_Sexuality.html?id=DkoZaEJk3-IC
http://jbp.sagepub.com/content/30/3/406.abstract
http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.23...2&uid=70&uid=4&uid=3739256&sid=21102558514617
Some information on more general gender inequality that is certainly applicable to the Black community:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/21/fathers-sexism-daughters-work-ambitions_n_2515906.html
http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/psysociety/2013/04/02/benevolent-sexism/[/quote]
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Once again. If someone asks how white people are maintaining their privilege. There are plenty of direct answers. Through voting, through hiring, profiling, ect.
If I ask how are black men preserving their privilege, there is no direct answer. You have to talk about subliminal concepts and MLK
Men have been known to go further in the corporate/technical world. So do they deserve to be paid more? It's not an equal situation between men and women at work, so why is greater pay for men seen as a privilege?
[/quote]
Once again your trying to prove inequalities exist. No one is denying that.
The question is how are black men maintaining their privilege at the expense of black woman. Don't give me a bunch of links to opinion articles. Give me one good example.
Like I said if you ask the question about white privilege there are plenty of direct answers. Give me one for black men.
Did you even read my last post? Everything at the end was as direct as it gets.
Secondly, I think most sexism in the Black community is "subliminal," too. I notice you conveniently avoided that I posted actual psychological studies that confirmed the unconscious biases inherent in things like racist (and sexist) hiring, profiling in various contexts, etc. The fact is, most of this shyt is not conspiratorial and based on villainous malice. Most white people don't think of themselves as racist. Similarly, most men don't think of themselves as enablers of inequality when they do things like keep women out of leadership positions, employ double standards, etc.
If they deserve to be there, and the women don't, then they deserve to get paid more. The pay gap I cited earlier existed in an equal situation, though- when men and women have the same jobs, and women still get paid less.
So scholarly research is "opinion articles" now? Clearly you aren't interested either in the widespread instances of behavior I cited in which Black male power is involved (glass ceilings for Black women in Black institutions, Black history being mostly about men and not women, Black single mothers left to raise children on their own, the double standard in Black sexual behavior, etc) or in the actual research I posted which gets into even more specifics. At this point, I'm starting to question your commitment to the truth. You were making honest arguments before, but now, when presented with considerable actual evidence, it seems like you're just interested in justifying your prior worldview instead of actually examining it in order to get to the truth of the situation by either affirming or criticizing it.
If you're unable to address the scientific and psychological research about subliminal prejudice OR the scholarly social scientific research on sexism in the Black community, then there's really no point in continuing here.
No it wasn't. Saying black men are the leaders of the church is not proof of them "maintaining privilege" you'd have to show proof of men purposely pushing women out, or voting against women, or not allowing them to lead.Did you even read my last post? Everything at the end was as direct as it gets.
"Sexism" can be subliminal , just like predjudice. Maintenance of privelage can not.
It's the same concept as when people say that black folks don't have the power to be racist. Yes we can be predjudice, hatefull,bigoted, but when it comes down to it, we just don't have the power to enforce that racism.
You justified unfair treatment of men due to behavioral differences. So why is that same concept not valid when it comes to what employees are paid?
The question is not about the existence of prejudice or sexism. Once again I never denied that they exist, so all your articles trying to prove they exist are worthless to the conversation.
The question is about black men "maintaining privilege at the expense of black women". Everytime I ask you for a direct answer of how black men are doing that. You jump to MLK being a sexist. That's not what I'm asking you, and that has nothing to do with the claims of black men maintaining privilege.
Ronald McDonald
Even in the darkest nights, I'm a MAC for life
wtf is there so many pages
↓R↑LYB
I trained Sheng Long and Shonuff
wtf is there so many pages
Goog old fashioned fukkery breh. I live for threads like this
Field Marshall Bradley
Veteran
[/quote]
Is any author of these articles a negro? The ones on "subconscious" racism that is
damn this is still going on 
Ronnie Lott
#49erGang
Did you even read my last post? Everything at the end was as direct as it gets.
Secondly, I think most sexism in the Black community is "subliminal," too. I notice you conveniently avoided that I posted actual psychological studies that confirmed the unconscious biases inherent in things like racist (and sexist) hiring, profiling in various contexts, etc. The fact is, most of this shyt is not conspiratorial and based on villainous malice. Most white people don't think of themselves as racist. Similarly, most men don't think of themselves as enablers of inequality when they do things like keep women out of leadership positions, employ double standards, etc.
If they deserve to be there, and the women don't, then they deserve to get paid more. The pay gap I cited earlier existed in an equal situation, though- when men and women have the same jobs, and women still get paid less.
So scholarly research is "opinion articles" now? Clearly you aren't interested either in the widespread instances of behavior I cited in which Black male power is involved (glass ceilings for Black women in Black institutions, Black history being mostly about men and not women, Black single mothers left to raise children on their own, the double standard in Black sexual behavior, etc) or in the actual research I posted which gets into even more specifics. At this point, I'm starting to question your commitment to the truth. You were making honest arguments before, but now, when presented with considerable actual evidence, it seems like you're just interested in justifying your prior worldview instead of actually examining it in order to get to the truth of the situation by either affirming or criticizing it.
If you're unable to address the scientific and psychological research about subliminal prejudice OR the scholarly social scientific research on sexism in the Black community, then there's really no point in continuing here.
Question. Do you believe that black men as a collective have far more benefits and "privlege" than black women?
Is there a systematic practice that black men have designed that prevents black women from progressing?
I said Black men helped maintain gender inequality in Black communities. I started off this entire exchange by saying that I am reluctant to use the word "privilege" to describe this entire array of behaviors. I'm not sure why you keep trying to make me stick to that, even after I defined my argument clearly in a previous post (to Keith Harrow.)
"Privilege" can indeed be maintained subliminally. You should read those studies I posted. If privilege is defined as a set of advantages, which is how I have been talking about it, then those advantages can indeed be reinforced through the daily interactions of people with subconscious biases. That's a perfectly logical point.
I never justified unfair treatment of men. All I said was that since men are the ones doing most of the violent crime and carrying around the most guns, it's not logical to say that women not being profiled is a "privilege." It would only be a privilege if men and women had roughly equal violent crime and gun carrying rates, and THEN women got profiled less. Similarly, I said that in the workforce, Black men and women who have the same job aren't paid the same. This isn't about a Black secretary vs. a Black VP or CEO. It's about 2 people who are the same in every way except for their sex. In short, you're reaching hard into a strawman.
All that scholarship is about Black men participating in sexism against Black women. It's pretty simple, really. That's exactly how "privilege" is maintained. Either you're using some bizarre definition of privilege that you're trying to force on my argument, or you just don't understand what I'm saying.
Now, again, you completely failed to address the research. After all that time asking for evidence, now you don't want to look at it. Honestly, it seems like you just got your card pulled. I'd love to be wrong, since you were arguing with more honesty earlier, but until you actually engage it, I don't have another conclusion.
Is any author of these articles a negro? The ones on "subconscious" racism that is[/quote]
Yeah, a few of them are Black, but not all of them. All the articles on the bottom, about gender in Black communities and Black men enforcing gender inequality against Black women are written by Black authors, though, including Black men.
That's too general a question to answer. There are important areas in which women do receive privileges, for example, in prison sentencing, as I brought up before, where they receive easier sentences for the same crimes as Black men. But in major areas of society like employment, domestic labor like raising children, in politics, etc, the data clearly favors men when everything else is equal.
As for systematic practice, there are some- in the Black church, for example, but I don't think most of it in Black communities in general is systematic, no.
Ronnie Lott
#49erGang
Yeah, a few of them are Black, but not all of them. All the articles on the bottom, about gender in Black communities and Black men enforcing gender inequality against Black women are written by Black authors, though, including Black men.
That's too general a question to answer. There are important areas in which women do receive privileges, for example, in prison sentencing, as I brought up before, where they receive easier sentences for the same crimes as Black men. But in major areas of society like employment, domestic labor like raising children, in politics, etc, the data clearly favors men when everything else is equal.
As for systematic practice, there are some- in the Black church, for example, but I don't think most of it in Black communities in general is systematic, no.[/quote]
More black women are employed then black men. And i dont understand how you can factor in domestic labor like thats some sort of occupation that men sign up for. Women arent even held accountable like men are in terms of having children. Black women can have as many children as she wants and will continue to get funded by the govt. If a man keeps having children, he will be forced by the state to pay child support and if he doesnt pay then he will be sent to jail
You made the statement that "black men are maintaining privilege". I asked how so, and you went into talking about Civil rights and churches. You have still yet to back up that statement. That's all I keep asking you and you keep dodging the question.
Sexism can be passed on subliminally. But you can't equate that sexism to "black men maintaining privilege". First off, not all sexism leads to benefits for men. And secondly in order for me to grant you a privilege I have to have the power to do so.
If you want to keep painting sexism as "benefits maintained by men" then you have to give examples of those benefits being maintained not just thoughts of sexism.
No there is no strawman.
You said profiling of men is not a privilege for women because men commit more crime.
I'm saying men and women have different tendencies at work so why do you consider different pay to be a "privilege"?
Sexism=/=privilege for men.
A lot of sexist ideals lead to detriments for black men. Would it be safe to say those detriments are privileges being maintained by black women?
The research is proof of men and women being sexist. Once agian I've never denied that to be the truth. Your research has failed to equate sexism to privilege being maintained by black men. Which is what began our little back and forth.
Read what I linked, and read my previous posts. I already outlined how.
Of course not all sexism leads to benefits for men. I never said that. Secondly, what grants privilege is a power structure. In Black communities, the vast majority of powerholders at the higher levels of the institutions are men. That's not something you can dispute. That's where the power structure comes from. It's a very simple point.
I already gave numerous examples. I can only keep referring you back to those and to the research, which contains even more examples.
Yes, I did say that, and it's true. As for men and women having "different tendencies," you'll have to elaborate. Right now it sounds like you just pulled that out of your ass because there's no research or logic behind it. Two people with the same experience working the same job with the same title for the same hours should get paid the same. There are no "different tendencies" that can change that.
Do you know what privilege is? Do you understand how I defined it? You can't just redefine it on your own whim and then claim that I'm not meeting its standard- that's called moving the goalposts. I already defined it earlier. Sexism is a general category, of which privilege for men, defined as distinct social advantages when all else is equal, is one of the results.
Maybe, in some cases. You'd have to name some that involve actual female power, though. Black women very little enforcement power since they don't hold many prominent positions of power in the Black community, just like Black people in general do in the larger white society.
The research is proof of Black men enforcing inequality with respect to women in Black communities. That's what maintains privilege.
