black feminism/womanism thread

[Westcoastnative]

No, I'm saying that the oppression that black women are subjected to is racism/white supremacy. You're not oppressed because you're female you're oppressed because you're black. Why have black feminists convinced themselves that black women have it harder than black men? You don't think creating a movement based on that myth is divisive?

That's right. When people see a black woman, they see the color of her skin first then her gender because being black stands out more than your gender.

It's the same with black men.

 

[Biscayne]

What do ya'll think of this video?

 

[George's Dilemma]

As I stated before (somewhere itt), I do not deny that there are people who misuse the movement however there are many more who do not. Here's some insight: no matter the organization and how honest and pure its intention/action is there will always, always, be people who manipulate it for their own gain (i.e. religion, social services, donations, etc). To judge a group by its worse is like non-blacks stereotyping black people by their worse. Yes, bad black people exist but that's does mean we are all bad. The same goes for feminism. If you do not care to understand the movement and want to continue to misinterpret it just know you are further validating the black feminist movement thus making your beliefs and/or efforts futile. You all wonder why there are some black feminists out here who bash BM, well, maybe if BM had taken time to listen and uplift instead of trying to suppress and control BW then they wouldn't be so bitter. I'm not saying to accept BM bashing but try to understand why these people do it. I'm sure it's not for no reason.

On the topic of BW enduring a double dosage of gender and racial discrimination I'm not going to into it with you since it's clear that you have no intention of listening to me and rather hand wave my experiences as a BW in order to force your ignorance on me. I don't see how you can acknowledge that sexism exist yet conclude that BW don't suffer from it. If we are talking solely of race, yes, black people are at the bottom but society happens to be more complicated than that, so, I don't understand your logic of race trumping gender yet, somehow, BW are not below BM in society. Ok.

The reason you haven't seen the good that black feminism does is because you don't want to see it. Instead you look at and concentrate on all of the "negative" things labelled feminism because that is what suits your purpose: to tear it down.

I love these comments. Something I've noticed about feminism as of late is that there's always this passive aggressive and condescending narrative that if you know what feminism is, then it should be a given that you'll agree with it. Obviously there's a textbook definition of the word itself, but as it's practiced and preached is a convoluted story to say the least. The irony of it all is, feminists expect you as a male to sift through what they as feminists call good and bad feminism in both definition and practice. Feminists act as if the onus isn't on them to represent their brand properly. As a man, observing feminists from the outside, they look quite hostile to me, and that in itself turns me off to whatever it is they want to say. Then take it a step further, and they want me to squint my eyes hard enough to differentiate real feminism from false feminism or good feminism from bad. I shouldn't have to do that. Get your sh!t together and then maybe I'll give it a look. Imagine a salesman with untreated schizophrenia banging on your door for the umpteenth time in an attempt to sell you cyanide. That's modern day feminism for you.

Whether intersectional or not, why Black women would associate themselves with a movement primed for and exclusive to liberal white women is beyond me.

 

[godkiller]

I hear a lot of parroted rhetoric but no substantial evidence that a movement that seeks to empower both men AND women in our race is somehow eroding black masculinity. Moreover if the latter is tied to black women being in lesser role it's already flawed and vulnerable to corruption. You cannot dismiss one half of ur race as less than and win when with our demographics. Instead we should be uplifting EVERY person in our race regardless of gender and valorizing their own unique talents as different but no less equal in value as an apple is to an orange.

It's logical that there is push-and-pull between men and women. Every power black women gain, black men lose (the same is true of all men and women, including cacs). Every power black men lose leaves a vacuum for other races to fill in. History is your evidence. Now, I never said that black women should be "dismissed as less than" black men. I agree with you that every black person, male or female, should be uplifted and lionized for their unique talents. Black women are praised and lionized for their continuing the black race regardless of circumstances. Without black women I wouldn't exist. My mother has fought a thousand battles in her life, and my grandmother before her, and those battles--more than what most black men have ever done or will ever do--have led us to where we are today. Black women are the jewel in black people's crown, if only black people would realize it. But this does not mean black women should have the power to do whatever they please within the context of black peoplehood.

Historically they did. West African women ran entire business and trade guilds, land ownership could be held separately even by married women and no one blinked an eye if a ruler was happened to be a woman b/c leadership capabilities in women weren't counted as a threat to black masculinity. It is only in the myriad of African historical cultures that you find entire lineages of female rulers (ie candakes), female elder leaders (leadership according to seniority) females trained and educated (Egypt had entire schools of medicine where women attended)...ect.

I have nothing against women holding lands, getting education or running a business. I don't mean to denigrate or dismiss black women's accomplishments, but most of the geopolitical power (not necessarily related to education, land ownership or business) African women had in Africa was more ceremonial than factual. This is why men didn't feel any trepidation. Medical training and eldership is not the same as having the power to make decisions which have widespread effect on people.

There is a fascinating study about how Western concepts of gender roles through the Judeo-Christain tradition completely disrupted the family structure and gender interactions of many traditional African countries resulting in a complete paradigm shift in the way women were regarded and catastrophic results to these communities.

An interesting take but in all countries, whether Judeo Christian or otherwise, men and women roughly have similar family structures.

Traditional African patriarchy was very very different from the Western patriarchy many black men have adopted in order to grasp some illusion of power within a white world. And with the ignorance of Western patriarchy which is based on the devaluing of white women to men, comes the backlash which is feminism.

Patriarchy did not originate in the West, it merely exists there too, like war and famine exists in the West but did nit originate there either. There is and has always been patriarchy in Arabia, Asia and Africa. As such black men did not seek to "grasp" unto patriarchy in West anymore than Genghis Khan's rampaging horde grasped patriarchy in the East. Patriarchy is ubiquitous. If black men do not institute it, someone else does. This is why feminist societies don't exist and why patriarchy does everywhere.

 

[godkiller]

That's completely fukking stupid .

What's stupid about the picture, exactly? Defend your opinion. The most oppressive patriarchies in the world, the Middle East, don't allow such heresy from their women. Women have their heads chopped off for less and the Arab dude just makes another daughter tomorrow.

 

[godkiller]

Because I believe that to rebuild our community, we have to empower both black women and men to reach their full capabilities.

Women may be empowered to reach their full potential without destroying black male patriarchy, just as white women can be empowered to reach their full potential without relinquishing the white man's control over the America. Patriarchy is nature. It is as ubiquitous as conflict and as inviolable as energy. Until the world commits to getting rid of patriarchy or reaches an impasse where one man's patriarchy cannot infringe on another's, logic dictates that that black men shouldn't relinquish their patriarchy. Doing anything else amounts to losing the arms' race

BW are oppressed for being black and female.

All men and women are oppressed and not for whom they are. If you see black females as b but whether it is worthwhile to do anything about all oppressions. Men are controlled by laws in order to protect society, which is a necessary type of oppression. Men are drafted into wars to protect nations, which is a necessary type of oppression. Nations are ruled by men, which is another necessary type of oppression. The old Europeans would never give control of their nations to women so that their enemies could invade them the next day.

How one can conclude that living in a misogynistic androcentric patriarchy is not oppressive towards females is astounding. The concept of gender is divisive not feminism. Feminism is a movement that exists because of the divisive nature of the system that created it.

If you view the natural world where black men rule over black soceities as oppression, then all black societies--and all societies in general--are irretrievably oppressive. And, ultimately, should remain so. There are no societies ruled by women for the same reason all societies are ruled by men. There is only division in this structure if you see it as so and unity if you see it that way too. This "oppressive" societal structure led to the European's control of the world.

Whether BW have it harder than BM or vice versa is not important. The issue is that BW do face unfair treatment on an account of both their sex and race so, therefore, try to empower themselves.

All men and women variously receiver fai and unfair treatment for whom they are. Black men suffer more than black women yet we don't see the need to sow division as we inherently believe our race comes before our gender. So despite similar conditions between black men and women, If we have no reason to protest against our own, black women have none either.

Because I believe that to rebuild our community, we have to empower both black women and men to reach their full capabilities.

Women may be empowered to reach their full potential without destroying black male patriarchy, just as white women can be empowered to reach their full potential without relinquishing the white man's control over the America (an extension of white patriarchy). Patriarchy is nature and can help the people for whom it is meant. By itself patriarchy is as ubiquitous as conflict and as inviolable as energy. Until the world commits to getting rid of patriarchy or reaches an impasse where one man's patriarchy cannot infringe on another's, logic dictates that that black men shouldn't relinquish their patriarchy. Doing anything else amounts to losing the arms' race.

 

[godkiller]

Women know nothing of war or conflict, so they speak of such things as they are existential or irrelevant.

 

[Marl0 Stanfield]

i will not support feminism as they are inherently destructive and counterproductive towards a stable black patriarchy.

*slow motion Mr. White Folks high five*

 

[godkiller]

*slow motion Mr. White Folks high five*

Actually, it is the cac's goal that black men be weakened and destroyed, which is what they put so much effort into doing so, now as then. This is why cacs do not fight black feminism. They see black infighting and fan the flames, just as they saw Native infighting and fanned the flames.

 

[Westcoastnative]

Without black women I wouldn't exist. My mother has fought a thousand battles in her life, and my grandmother before her, and those battles--more than what most black men have ever done or will ever do--have led us to where we are today. Black women are the jewel in black people's crown, if only black people would realize it.

No, Black men in my life like my father is every bit as responsible for the jewels on my crown as the Black women in my life like my mother.

Sad that black men and fatherhood are not valued in the black community.

 

[godkiller]

This is true. There's been evidence of matriarchal societies some(key word) historical West African societies.

Link?

 

[godkiller]

No, Black men in my life like my father is every bit as responsible for the jewels on my crown as the Black women in my life like my mother.

Sad that black men and fatherhood are not valued in the black community.

Black women are often more committed to the black cause than black men. I don't think the difference in c00n rates in very different though..

 

[Onlooker]

This is just one big deflection. You didn't directly address much of anything that I said. You want to dismiss all criticisms of the black feminist movements with "don't let a few bad apples ruin your opinion of the bunch". I haven't even used one or a select few black feminists to generalize all black feminists. I've actually challenged feminism as an ideology. Did you not get that? My position is that from it's inception it's been used as a weapon against the black community to disrupt power and unity. You can trace this back to Gloria Steinem the CIA agent who promoted "Black Macho and the Myth of the Superwoman" in her magazine. That book is basically the credo for black feminism as we know it now.

Stop it with all the histrionics. I'm not forcing anything on you. I listen quite well. Just because I don't agree with what you're saying doesn't mean that I'm not listening.

You're the one on some simple Simon shyt. Things are more complicated than you're making them out to be. Sexism only exists in relation to white men. There is no black male sexism in this society. The black man is public enemy #1. You can cry about sexism all you want, but if you were a black man you would have an even bigger target on your back. You don't think that black men face specific and more intense forms of discrimination/disenfranchisement due to being black men? If you don't then you need a clue. Some black women want it both ways depending on the discussion. In one breath you're complaining about not being able to find suitable mates because black women are supposedly outpacing black men so badly, but in the next breath you want to pretend as if black women are discriminated against the most.

Apparently there's nothing good to see. I asked a simple direct question and all you can do is deflect. I'll ask you again. What some things that black feminism has accomplished for the black community in the last 40 or so years? Almost a half of century of talking about so called empowerment, so who have they empowered and how?

You are right. I didn't directly address everything in your post and that is because I understand the gits of what you are implying and so I responded to that. As for the criticism, what criticism have I dismissed? I acknowledge that black feminism can be misused so what more is there to say?

Challenge feminism as an ideology? You can't challenge something you do not understand. You believe black feminism to be a weapon against the black community. That is false, so I don't know what you are "challenging". Maybe these "bad apples" as you put it but they are not what black feminism is.

Yes, you listen but you listen to retaliate not to understand.

I never denied the fact that BM face discrimination but sexism doesn't only relate to WM (read the definition) because you are suggesting that BM cannot be sexist or experience sexism. That is untrue. In our society, as it is now, M are ranked higher than W in terms of social status. Now add race into the mix. Because of their male status, BM now can exert power upon BW whether they acknowledge it or not. That's how it works but black feminism (or whatever you want to call it) is here to level that.

Who has black feminism empowered? BW. I didn't answer your question because I know where this is going and I rather not play that game. Say what you will but I'm not up for the "what have you guys accomplished, huh?" tactics were every time you answer it's "well, there not self-identified", "that's not recent enough", "nobody know them", "that's not significant enough", et cetera. There are programs, literature/media, people and so on that are dedicated to empowering BW so I'm not going to do this.

 

[godkiller]

You are right. I didn't directly address everything in your post and that is because I understand the gits of what you are implying and so I responded to that. As for the criticism, what criticism have I dismissed? I acknowledge that black feminism can be misused so what more is there to say?

Challenge feminism as an ideology? You can't challenge something you do not understand. You believe black feminism to be a weapon against the black community. That is false, so I don't know what you are "challenging". Maybe these "bad apples" as you put it but they are not what black feminism is.

Yes, you listen but you listen to retaliate not to understand.

I never denied the fact that BM face discrimination but sexism doesn't only relate to WM (read the definition) because you are suggesting that BM cannot be sexist or experience sexism. That is untrue. In our society, as it is now, M are ranked higher than W in terms of social status. Now add race into the mix. Because of their male status, BM now can exert power upon BW whether they acknowledge it or not. That's how it works but black feminism (or whatever you want to call it) is here to level that.

Who has black feminism empowered? BW. I didn't answer your question because I know where this is going and I rather not play that game. Say what you will but I'm not up for the "what have you guys accomplished, huh?" tactics were every time you answer it's "well, there not self-identified", "that's not recent enough", "nobody know them", "that's not significant enough", et cetera. There are programs, literature/media, people and so on that are dedicated to empowering BW so I'm not going to do this.

BW are so empowered today that black communities are destitute and our people, including girls, with them. Please, feminism has not empowered anyone or anything. If I and a host of black went back in time, amassed an army, enforced maternalism on black women and conquered South America thereafter, I would have achieved more for black people, men and women than anything feminism has ever achieved for black people in 40 fukking years! Clearly then, feminism is worthless.

 

[Onlooker]

I love these comments. Something I've noticed about feminism as of late is that there's always this passive aggressive and condescending narrative that if you know what feminism is, then it should be a given that you'll agree with it. Obviously there's a textbook definition of the word itself, but as it's practiced and preached is a convoluted story to say the least. The irony of it all is, feminists expect you as a male to sift through what they as feminists call good and bad feminism in both definition and practice. Feminists act as if the onus isn't on them to represent their brand properly. As a man, observing feminists from the outside, they look quite hostile to me, and that in itself turns me off to whatever it is they want to say. Then take it a step further, and they want me to squint my eyes hard enough to differentiate real feminism from false feminism or good feminism from bad. I shouldn't have to do that. Get your sh!t together and then maybe I'll give it a look. Imagine a salesman with untreated schizophrenia banging on your door for the umpteenth time in an attempt to sell you cyanide. That's modern day feminism for you.

Whether intersectional or not, why Black women would associate themselves with a movement primed for and exclusive to liberal white women is beyond me.

Are you a child? Why do you need to be spoon fed and handheld? Get up and do your own research. Figure out what is real and what is not. We are not your parents to be looking after you. This is the real world. If you have questions then ask but don't expect people to readily serve things to you.

It's your choice to judge things based on "what it looks like" rather than what it is but don't expect anyone to take your opinions seriously.

How is black feminism/womanism "primed for and exclusive to liberal white women"