Bible Verse: Deuteronomy 18:18

[DoubleClutch]

How do you know the Holy Spirit revealed those things and why would anonymous writers get revelations from God when that's the job of Prophets?

Just so you know, the Trinity as you know it today (3 co-equal parts Son, Father, Spirit), did not exist until almost three hundred years after Jesus.
That was a concept brought forth by the council of Nicaea. Before that, they didn't believe the Son or Spirit was equal to the Father. (they were subordinate)
That's why I asked earlier where is the Gospel of Jesus so it can clear this all up because all we have are the Gospels of John, Luke, Mark, and Matthew.
And it isn't even their Gospel but it's according to them. So it was written by anonymous writers and it's up to their interpretations.
So Matthew or John could've said one thing but the anonymous author misunderstood and wrote down his misinterpretation.


Thanks for the correction breh. I was talking about David's adultery with Bethsheba and his murder of her husband which is horribly unbecoming of a Prophet and one of the wisest Kings in history.
We don't believe Prophets are sinless as @DoubleClutch said, we believe that they are the best of people
which still makes them sinners, but they repent more and their sins aren't major like murder, adultery, or blasphemy. (most regular people don't even do those)
If you have time breh, watch this video. It goes through 4 examples of Prophets in Islam vs the Old Testament.




I've already answered that in my comment above.



It's been a week breh, and instead of answering my questions, you asked me another one

My questions are in the first paragraph of my comment above.

I read your post you didn’t answer breh

you can’t answer because it’s a contradiction either way

but anyways like your Quran says “ask the people of the book”

if you wanna learn about the Torah, understand it’s stories and it’s figures better go right to the source Jews/Judaism

In the case of David, please watch this video (it literally popped up in my suggestions earlier this week) and it’ll all make sense hopefully.



Without his sins (murder/Adultery) David is not the same David. His sins is what defines his life (not the way you think), his individual story and place in a larger Bible narrative, and contributes to why he is, if not THE, one of the most respected and beloved biblical figures by Jews and Christians

Just ask yourself why so many Jewish/Christian parents knowing his sins would still name their kids after David?

That should explain it to you alone

but Muslims don’t believe in this David, so oh well.

I’m not Jewish by any means but as a Christian I must respect Judaism, know the Torah & entire Jewish Bible in context as it is and existed before Christianity and sets a foundation that not only supports, but points to Jesus as lord/messiah/savior etc... and not Muhammad or Islam

As a Muslim Ideally you should do the same since you claim to believe in the same God, but you’d rather claim the Jewish Bible and Jesus teachings was all “corrupted” or lost in order to give your religion a purpose or relevancy thousands of years after the fact

it’s that simple, I could go on but I don’t think anymore explaining will help get the point through to you

I will say if I was to answer any of your Muslim questions of the “trinity” it would be to someone who already believes Jesus to be divine or one with God, because otherwise what’s the point?

Either way I can’t make you see things how I see it, that’s for your own understanding or God to reveal to you....if you really believe in the God that sent Jesus

and for the record I don’t believe in any taught IDEA of a “trinity” by some council or church at any specific time in history

I believe in what Jesus said because that’s what is written and trusted by all the early Christians individually and the traditions to this day

you can keep trying to push the organized religion/catholic church doctrine angle on me
But it won’t work because I didn’t live during that time, I never read it in history or learned it in “Bible school” and I wasn’t taught anything I didn’t want to believe in.

I think for myself and believe what I believe based on my own knowledge, personal experiences and understanding of the Bible over time and that is how it should be

respectfully, I think you lack this experience because you’ve been taught Islam religion so deep you can’t see Judaism/Jesus in the way I do, right now.

However, the more I debate with you I can see Islam clearly for what it is.

As a Muslim you need to believe in Judaism/the Torah based of simple logic (and Jesus only because the Quran says so) but I don’t need to believe in Muhammad as a prophet of God or anything written in the Quran and I’m still good.

Your only criticism about my religion is that the scriptures was “corrupted” by man

Do some more studies of historical Judaism/Jesus WITHOUT this “corrupted” Muslim religious point of view and then get back with me with any more questions. I’ll be here waiting, breh. Good luck

 

[KyokushinKarateMan]

Prophet Mohammed ايله حسن ماليزيا ?

Allahu Akber

 

[Light]

maybe you or @Anhur could respond to this video... I literally just saw on my timeline

this was exactly one of my issues I brought up in my previous posts

However this guy words it better, and calls it the

“Quran dilemma”

this along with the “omniscience fallacy” are my main problems/criticisms of Islam from a Judeo-Christian perspective.

this is a much bigger issue than say, trying to explain Jesus as the son of God or the idea of a “trinity” for Muslims because FIRST Islam as a whole must make sense before it’s followers can question what Christians believe

How do you make a statement like this to another poster and not apply the same standards to yourself?:

"Muslims don’t understand the Bible or even attempt to because if they did they’d realize Islam is a false religion which contradicts Gods will/plan for his people (all people)."

The channel that video comes from is clearly bias towards Christianity and will never give a fair account of the Qur'anic verses. Notice how the presenter in that video only mentioned the first line of the verse which conveniently supports his stance something that Christians love to do quite often.

Surah 5:68
"Say, ˹O Prophet,˺ “O People of the Book! You have nothing to stand on unless you observe the Torah, the Gospel, and what has been revealed to you from your Lord.” And your Lord’s revelation to you ˹O Prophet˺ will only cause many of them to increase in wickedness and disbelief. So do not grieve for the people who disbelieve"


If you actually attempted to understand the verse you'd realize that the complete context is telling the people of the book to observe their own scriptures and the Qur'an. Meaning they should only follow the teachings in their scriptures that are either endorsed or supported in the Quran.

I suggest you read the entire Quran in order to get the complete understanding of verses instead of being misled by individuals who selectively choose verses knowing their audience won't bother to conduct research to come to their own understanding. Even the previous verses before 5:68 like 66 for example states something along the lines of 68. At the very least, if you can't read it in it's entirety, attempt to read the surah where the ayah in question is from. Context literally provides meaning and clarity to verses.

 

[DoubleClutch]

How do you make a statement like this to another poster and not apply the same standards to yourself?:

"Muslims don’t understand the Bible or even attempt to because if they did they’d realize Islam is a false religion which contradicts Gods will/plan for his people (all people)."

The channel that video comes from is clearly bias towards Christianity and will never give a fair account of the Qur'anic verses. Notice how the presenter in that video only mentioned the first line of the verse which conveniently supports his stance something that Christians love to do quite often.

Surah 5:68
"Say, ˹O Prophet,˺ “O People of the Book! You have nothing to stand on unless you observe the Torah, the Gospel, and what has been revealed to you from your Lord.” And your Lord’s revelation to you ˹O Prophet˺ will only cause many of them to increase in wickedness and disbelief. So do not grieve for the people who disbelieve"


If you actually attempted to understand the verse you'd realize that the complete context is telling the people of the book to observe their own scriptures and the Qur'an. Meaning they should only follow the teachings in their scriptures that are either endorsed or supported in the Quran.

I suggest you read the entire Quran in order to get the complete understanding of verses instead of being misled by individuals who selectively choose verses knowing their audience won't bother to conduct research to come to their own understanding. Even the previous verses before 5:68 like 66 for example states something along the lines of 68. At the very least, if you can't read it in it's entirety, attempt to read the surah where the ayah in question is from. Context literally provides meaning and clarity to verses.

I don’t think you get it, just the simple fact that the Quran tells people it’s ok to look at the older Bible, Torah etc.... as a authoritative source proves the Quran wrong

it only takes that one scripture

And I’ve read the Quran from a perspective of knowing the Jewish Bible and gospels and the Quran doesn’t make sense

given the simple fact that one came before the other and the latter says don’t trust the former

But your own God says “if you have any doubt” ask the people of the book: Jews/Christian Jews

you can’t say trust the foundation and say the foundation is corrupted at the same time

it’s a contradiction logically

but logically you Muslims need Judaism because your religion has no independent history or foundation to stand on or legitimize itself or even explain how Islam even fits given the fact that it comes thousands of years late

and I’m not here to debate this, it’s just fact.

I’m not talking religion and interpretation of scriptures in context I’m talking simple common sense

Islam is full of holes and issues if you read it from a Christian/Jewish perspective or even a non religious logical one.

The main problem is plain and simple in the video

I won’t attempt to understand the Quran further because it’s no need for me to believe in Muhammad or even consider the Quran when a better and more complete picture of God was revealed to people in the Bible and through his son Jesus thousands of years before Islam or Muhammad or even the Arab language even existed

history proves most the Arab people before and during the time of Islam were a pagan moon worshiping cult and Allah was know as the god of a religion who’s followers worshiped his daughters. this is history

Others were Christians and Jews already, before Islam.

if it ain’t broke don’t fix it. Actually, it can’t break

God doesn’t make mistakes, change or contradict himself.

However the God of Islam Allah does asks Muslims to believe all the bolded above in order to rationalize the Quran

 

[MMS]

@DoubleClutch

amazing how many scriptural angles there are

Yodh - Wikipedia

a line or 1 or I is technically the building block of all scripture

Spoiler

https://www.thecoli.com/posts/40539374/

 

[invalid]

The Quran does say that the Zubur (Psalms), Torah, and Injeel (Gospel) were sent down to guide people but they were also corrupted over time through mistranslations, wrong interpretations, etc.

None of these verses that you pulled says that Biblical and Toranic Scriptures are corrupted. In fact, the Koran says the opposite.

Surah [3:78]: And there is indeed a group among them who twist their tongues with the book, that you may suppose it to be from the book. But it is not from the book. And they say, “It is from God,” though it is not from God. And they knowingly speak a lie against God.

This verse says nothing about scriptures being errant. This verse speaks to human misinterpretation.

Surah [4:46]: Among those who are Jews are those who distort the meaning of the word, and say, “We hear and disobey,” and “Hear, as one who hears not!” and “Attend to us!” twisting their tongues and disparaging religion. And had they said, “We hear and obey” and “Listen” and “Regard us,” it would have been better for them and more proper. But God cursed them for their disbelief, so they believe not, save a few.

Again, same thing. "Distort the meaning of the word" does not mean that the text is wrong. It means people misinterpret. As if arabic speakers would even know otherwise, not knowing the hebrew and greek that the scriptures were written in in the first place. But that's a different topic that I'm going to touch on in a bit.

Surah [5:13]: Then for their breaking of their covenant, we cursed them and hardened their hearts. They distort the meaning of the word, and have forgotten part of that whereof they were reminded. Thou wilt not cease to discover their treachery, from all save a few of them. Pardon them, then, and overlook their deeds. Surely Allah loves those who do good deeds.

"Distort the meaning of the word" - nothing about scriptures being in error.

Surah [2:79]: So woe unto those who write the book with their hands, then say, “This is from God,” that they may sell it for a paltry price. So woe unto them for what their hands have written and woe unto them for what they earn.

The is is the only verse that speaks to an errant "book" and it has no context like a lot of things in the Koran. There is no evidence that it is speaking about Biblical and Toranic scriptures. And it couldn't be if it was. Because Biblical and Toranic scripture were written scriptures.

However, what we do know is that the Koran is suppose to be "recited" by its practitioners. Recitation was NOT a thing for Hebrews and Christians. So if this verse is saying anything about putting scripture into writing and then selling it, it's speaking about the Koran, because Biblical and Toranic scriptures were put into writing. God even inscribed the Ten Commandments on tablets.

But you now have a problem. Because, also from the Koran, are verses that affirm the Torah and the Gospel. Like this one.

Say, ˹O believers,˺ “We believe in Allah and what has been revealed to us; and what was revealed to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and his descendants; and what was given to Moses, Jesus, and other prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them. And to Allah we all submit.”

Baqara, 136

Koranic scripture affirms the validity of Old Testament scripture and New Testament Canon. You will find nowhere in the Koran that says those scriptures are false. On the other hand, the Koran contradicts those scriptures like with the passages you just posted.

So which is it?

Trying to use Koranic scripture to affirm or invalidate will get you in trouble.

The Koran invalidates itself so using Koranic scripture is not credible.

The Quran is the final testament and Allah said that it would not suffer the fate of the other testaments that were tampered with.
That's why the Quran was preserved only a couple of years after the Prophet's (PBUH) death by Abu Bakr (RA) and Uthman (RA) codified the Quran about 20 years later.
There was no room for tampering whatsoever.
The Quran isn't according to anyone (like the Gospels) but directly from the source and has been the exact same for 1400 years.
Christians and Jews can't say the same about their books.

Besides there being multiple versions of the Koran that have differing verses and besides a goat eating pages out of the Koran, and so therefore, the Koran not being complete, the Koran may very well be the final testament of Allah.

But Allah is not the God of Jewish and Christian scriptures.

Muslims proclaim that God's unique name is Allah.
Jews and Christians proclaims God's unique name is Yahweh which God revealed to Moses himself.

It doesn't make sense that the name of God changes when Muslims come around.

We know God's name to be Yahweh because in Judeo-Christian culture people incorporated the name of Yahweh in their names. Names are theophoric.

For instance:

"John" in Hebrew is Yahonan or Yehia. The Koran translated the name to Yahya. Yahonan means "Yahweh is gracious". Yehia means "Yahweh Lives."

"Zachariah" is Hebrew for "Yahweh remembers". The Koran translated the name to Zakariyya.

If the Koran says "there is no God but Allah" and the Bible says "there is no God but Yahweh" and the Koran is the direct word of Allah, why is Allah using names that are theophoric for Yahweh?

It seems to me that the author of the Koran had no idea what Yahweh was and had no idea that these names incorporated the name of Yahweh in them. This is especially glaring when there are theophoric names for Allah, like Abdullah, which means "slave of god".

Ironically, it was Allah himself who supposedly gave John the Baptist his name..

"Oh Zakariyya, indeed We give you good tidings of a boy whose name will be John." Quran 19:7

Why would Allah give John a name that praises Yahweh and not Allah?

There is an even bigger name that kills the idea that Allah is God.

The Koran speaks of a man name "Isa" which is weirdly supposed to come from the Hebrew "Yeshua" which means "to save".

"Yeshua" etymologically comes from "Yehoshua" which means "Yahweh is Salvation".

Why does Isa, such a big character, mentioned so prominently throughout the Koran, contain the name of Yahweh and not Allah?

There is also Elijah which in Hebrew is Eliyahu. In the Koran, it is Ilyas.

Eliyahu literally means "My God is Yahweh".

It couldn't be any clearer that God's name is Yahweh by this name and the Koran explicitly mentions this name.

How could your holy scripture, that supposedly comes from Allah himself, use the name of Ilyas - "My God is Yahweh" and not "My God is Allah".

This looks very terrible for Islam.

That's not all.

The Hadiths mentions "Yusha" which in Hebrew is Joshua also etymologically from Hoshea or "Yahweh is Lordly".

Other biblical names include:

Micaiah - Who is like Yahweh
Obadiah - Servant of Yahweh
Isaiah - Yahweh is salvation
Jeremiah - Yahweh will raise
Zaphaniah - Protected by Yahweh
Joel - Yahweh is God

Muslims mention that God's name is Allah and that the old Israelites and people like Moses called God by that name. By Allah.

If that is so, why do all these Abrahamic names, these very holy names, why do they all praise Yahweh?

Why does the Koran, the word of Allah, bestow names that praise Yahweh?

The author of the Koran had no idea what he was doing. Allah invalidates himself as the God of the Hebrews and Christians by naming his holy people in the Koran with names that glorify Yahweh.

Apparently, Allah is confused about his own name. Or simply Allah was made up by a man in his own imagination who had no idea that the names that he would plagiarize in his book contains the name of Yahweh.

 

[invalid]

Before we highlight the corruption for you, Let's begin by asking what version of the Bible do you accept?
NIV? King James? What Bible do you read?

You all seem to not understand that the Bible was written in two languages. Hebrew and Greek.

Any English translations, which is what you are referring to, comes directly from the Hebrew and Greek source.

What Muslims also seem to not understand is that there are many ways that you can translate something.

You can translate something word for word. Or you can translate something "dynamically" - meaning thought for thought, or idea for idea. Dynamic translations are providing meaning in modern day language and not exactly an exact translation because exact translations may not be accurate.

For instance, if you are an actor that works in the theater and I say "break a leg". That doesn't literally mean break a leg. It means "good luck". A dynamic thought for thought translation is going to translate "break a leg" as "good luck".

So any of the English translations are simply translating the Hebrew and Greek text for the modern English language. Which we all know is a dynamic language and is always evolving which is why you have the different English versions.

What's even more, the translation of the Hebrew and Greek biblical sources go through a rigorous translation process by a board of expert linguist who cross examine each word in the scriptures to the Greek and Hebrew and also compare a use of the word in every instance it is found in the scripture to ensure accuracy.

To say in 2021 that we have mistranslations is really stupid when expert linguist exist and are constantly analyzing the languages to ensure accuracy.

Come up with another talking point.

 

[Dafunkdoc_Unlimited]

​

 

[SwizzLake]

You all seem to not understand that the Bible was written in two languages. Hebrew and Greek.

Any English translations, which is what you are referring to, comes directly from the Hebrew and Greek source.

What Muslims also seem to not understand is that there are many ways that you can translate something.

You can translate something word for word. Or you can translate something "dynamically" - meaning thought for thought, or idea for idea. Dynamic translations are providing meaning in modern day language and not exactly an exact translation because exact translations may not be accurate.

For instance, if you are an actor that works in the theater and I say "break a leg". That doesn't literally mean break a leg. It means "good luck". A dynamic thought for thought translation is going to translate "break a leg" as "good luck".

So any of the English translations are simply translating the Hebrew and Greek text for the modern English language. Which we all know is a dynamic language and is always evolving which is why you have the different English versions.

What's even more, the translation of the Hebrew and Greek biblical sources go through a rigorous translation process by a board of expert linguist who cross examine each word in the scriptures to the Greek and Hebrew and also compare a use of the word in every instance it is found in the scripture to ensure accuracy.

To say in 2021 that we have mistranslations is really stupid when expert linguist exist and are constantly analyzing the languages to ensure accuracy.

Come up with another talking point.

Without comparing the different versions and texts, we are able to demonstrate the clear contradictions and why the central belief of Christianity the concept of trinity is blasphemous. God is one. You may choose to tackle on the issues already raised on this thread to begin.

 

[Dafunkdoc_Unlimited]

Without comparing the different versions and texts, we are able to demonstrate the clear contradictions and why the central belief of Christianity the concept of trinity is blasphemous.

Not without proving the Quran in-error and Muhammad a false prophet.​

 

[invalid]

Without comparing the different versions and texts, we are able to demonstrate the clear contradictions and why the central belief of Christianity the concept of trinity is blasphemous. God is one. You may choose to tackle on the issues already raised on this thread to begin.

Out of Allah's own mouth he proclaims Yahweh. You need to tackle why that is.

God is one.

Since you're a stickler for literal translations, you may find this passage in Hebrew interesting.

Deuteronomy 6:4

Sh'ma Yisrael, Yahweh, Eleheinu, Yahweh echad.

Hebrews tend to not like to use the actual name of God, so will substitute it for the title of God. This verse can also be read as..

Sh'ma Yisrael, Adonai, Eleheinu, Adonai echad.

English 1 for 1 translation:
Hear Israel, God, God, God, one.

English dynamic translation:
Hear O Israel, Yahweh, Our God, the Lord is one.

This verse proclaims the oneness of God but it sure is interesting how it invokes God three times. That would be a direct translation.

Now answer a question for me.

Why did Allah bestow the name Yahya to one of his prophets?

Yahya comes from Yohanan meaning Yahweh is gracious.

 

[Dafunkdoc_Unlimited]

We are going in circles, breh. So I will just make this my final comment.

"Rome didn't convert to Christianity. It was Christianity that converted to Rome." --Rabbi Tovia Singer

The Trinity isn't a monotheistic belief but a pagan belief and originates from Pagans.
Egyptian mythology had the trinity of Ra (power, emotion: fatherly, anger, love, etc), Amun (Hidden or Unseen and Kingship), Ptah (Craftsman, creates by speaking things into existence)
Ra (the Sun deity) had his own Trinity: Khepre (Morning sun), Ra (Afternoon Sun), Atum (Evening Sun)
The final trinity in Egypt was Osiris (Father), Isis (Mother), and Horus (Son). The depictions of Mary and Jesus are very closely linked to that of Isis and Horus.

Hinduism has a trinity as well: Brahma(the creator), Vishnu (the preserver), and Shiva or Mahesh (the destroyer)

What about the Greco-Romans? They had the trinity of Zeus, Amun, and Jupiter.

We can also talk about Christmas, Zeus/Jupiter and God and being identical twins in paintings, and other things but it would be long and drawn out.
The trinity is clearly not a monotheistic practice but is proof of the syncretization of Roman pagan beliefs and Christianity.
@Dafunkdoc_Unlimited even had to justify this blatantly pagan belief system by accusing Jews of not understanding their own religion and that they should believe that God was a duality.

LMFAO!!!! That's ALL nonsense and comes from a conspiracy theory from Alexander Hislop in the 18th Century CE (The Two Babylon's) that NO historian, theological or secular, takes seriously. The simple fact is Jews had a preconceived idea of a 'godhead' centuries before Jesus was born. The book I posted earlier is written by an Orthodox Jew that acknowledged this fact.​

Clearly, the Bible isn't the same or exact same as the one Jesus was given. That's why we (Jews and Muslims) don't trust it.

Jesus wasn't given the text. Neither the author of the Quran, Muhammad, nor you, seems to get this fact. This also presents a HUGE conundrum for you since the Quran affirms the authority, preservation, and inspiration of the Torah, Psalms, and Gospels. If the books were changed before Muhammad, then why do both the Quran and Muhammad vouch for them and tell Muslims to trust them? If after, then what do you do with ALL the thousands of manuscripts that the text is translated from?​

 

[Dafunkdoc_Unlimited]

Just so you know, the Trinity as you know it today (3 co-equal parts Son, Father, Spirit), did not exist until almost three hundred years after Jesus.
That was a concept brought forth by the council of Nicaea. Before that, they didn't believe the Son or Spirit was equal to the Father. (they were subordinate)

That is an utter and complete LIE......​

https://www.thecoli.com/posts/41172157/

The 'Trinity' was 'Proto-Orthodox' Christian belief 300 years BEFORE Constantine and the Council even existed.​

 

[Dafunkdoc_Unlimited]

That they said (in boast), “We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah”—but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not—nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.” (Quran, 4:157-158, Yusuf Ali)

ORLY????

​

 

[DoubleClutch]

Without comparing the different versions and texts, we are able to demonstrate the clear contradictions and why the central belief of Christianity the concept of trinity is blasphemous. God is one. You may choose to tackle on the issues already raised on this thread to begin.

Jesus said “blasphemous” things and that’s why he was crucified and died. This was before any idea of “Trinity” existed.

You Muslims can’t begin to comprehend any idea or concept of a “trinity” Simply because you either haven’t read or don’t believe the Jewish Bible and the gospels and because you don’t see (or don’t even attempt to view Jesus as divine or one with god to begin with. Also you don’t understand what the Holy Spirit is.

one comes before the other

trying to explain why I believe the “trinity” (for lack of a better word) or how I see Jesus as God even to another Christian is difficult

everyone has their own way of thinking/understanding

there is no standard or perfect answer/explanation amongst Christians

if you want answers on the “trinity” you have to read the bible/gospels, pray and understand it for yourself.

But first you probably should put aside your Muslim beliefs/bias

It’s a belief at the end of the day. You’re making it into a logic argument/debate based on historical events and the history of the church

YouTube you Christian videos on the “Trinity” maybe that can help get you started