Bible Verse: Deuteronomy 18:18

[tuckgod]

I thought I was told Ishmael is the origin of Islam.

 

[DoubleClutch]

They can't say that without proving the Quran in-error and Muhammad a false prophet.​

I have a MUCH better argument: Where in the Quran does Allah or Muhammad say, unequivocally, that the texts were corrupted?

That cuts-out all the interpretation nonsense.

​

​

Yea but the Bible being changed/translated to multiple versions or the fact that the Bible has been misinterpreted and misused by man is an argument used by atheists and other critics of the Christians

And most religious sects/cults to come from Christianity/Judasim use this as an argument to justify their new “revelation.

For Muslims it’s usually not an issue of if it’s written in the Koran or not but simply a fact of history.

It’s a convenient argument to make because they use this as opportunity to brag about how the Koran preserved and “was never altered or translated”.

that’s the strongest argument they got in favor of the Koran as a historical document.

But logically the Koran doesn’t make sense since
like you say “their own teachings prove the Quran in-error and Muhammad a false prophet.”

you’ll never get anywhere in these type scriptural/theological debates with Muslims. But common sense will work sometimes..... even if it’s just reminding yourself that Islam is not from God.

 

[Dafunkdoc_Unlimited]

Yea but the Bible being changed/translated to multiple versions or the fact that the Bible has been misinterpreted and misused by man is an argument used by atheists and other critics of the Christians

A hammer can be used to build a house, or kill everyone in it. That doesn't mean the hammer is at fault. The fault lies squarely on the user.​

For Muslims it’s usually not an issue of if it’s written in the Koran or not but simply a fact of history.

It’s a convenient argument to make because they use this as opportunity to brag about how the Koran preserved and “was never altered or translated”.

that’s the strongest argument they got in favor of the Koran as a historical document.

That argument is entirely false as NONE of the early manuscripts agree 100% with the text we have today and don't go back to the originator. There's also the problem of a certain person destroying the majority of them and making their own version. Now, imagine what peoples' criticism would be if, say, Paul or Constantine decided to destroy all the early manuscripts of the Tanakh/NT and make-up an 'official' version, then claim it was 'uncorrupted'.​

you’ll never get anywhere in these type scriptural/theological debates with Muslims. But common sense will work sometimes..... even if it’s just reminding yourself that Islam is not from God.

If common sense worked, there wouldn't be nearly 2 billion Muslims on the planet. What's going to happen, inevitably, is that more scholars are going to critically study the Quran and Islamic literature. The deeper they get, the more they'll find-out, and Islam will either stand or fall on it's own merits.​

 

[Dafunkdoc_Unlimited]

I thought I was told Ishmael is the origin of Islam.

Ishmael isn't the originator. He lived about 3,000 years before Muhammad, the actual originator, was born.​

 

[SwizzLake]

Is Christianity a monotheistic religion? Really interesting facts presented...

 

[Anhur]

the only selling point islam has is: “the Bible was corrupted”

We are going in circles, breh. So I will just make this my final comment.

"Rome didn't convert to Christianity. It was Christianity that converted to Rome." --Rabbi Tovia Singer

The Trinity isn't a monotheistic belief but a pagan belief and originates from Pagans.
Egyptian mythology had the trinity of Ra (power, emotion: fatherly, anger, love, etc), Amun (Hidden or Unseen and Kingship), Ptah (Craftsman, creates by speaking things into existence)
Ra (the Sun deity) had his own Trinity: Khepre (Morning sun), Ra (Afternoon Sun), Atum (Evening Sun)
The final trinity in Egypt was Osiris (Father), Isis (Mother), and Horus (Son). The depictions of Mary and Jesus are very closely linked to that of Isis and Horus.

Hinduism has a trinity as well: Brahma(the creator), Vishnu (the preserver), and Shiva or Mahesh (the destroyer)

What about the Greco-Romans? They had the trinity of Zeus, Amun, and Jupiter.

We can also talk about Christmas, Zeus/Jupiter and God and being identical twins in paintings, and other things but it would be long and drawn out.
The trinity is clearly not a monotheistic practice but is proof of the syncretization of Roman pagan beliefs and Christianity.
@Dafunkdoc_Unlimited even had to justify this blatantly pagan belief system by accusing Jews of not understanding their own religion and that they should believe that God was a duality.

Here is another interesting fact; Muslims and Jews can pray at each other's Mosques or Synagogues,
but both can't pray at a Church or pagan temples (Buddhist, Hindu, etc.)
If Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) is such a false Prophet, why is it that "his" religion is more recognized and considered in line with Judaism even though we don't even take the Torah into account while Christians do?

Now let's talk about the Bible. How do Christians know that they have the words of God or something close to that? They don't.

Here is a quote from a Christian scholar Dr. James White on the authenticity of the Bible;
"We don't know who wrote the Book of Hebrews, but we have some good guesses."

So some books have unknown authors and not a single Book was a primary source of Jesus's ministry.

You also have inspired writers like Paul who are regular people but plenty of Prophets didn't even have scripture. Who is Paul to be writing anything? If he is writing scripture then he should be a Prophet.
But not even Christians see him like that. Then where did he get the authority to write in God's name?


Clearly, the Bible isn't the same or exact same as the one Jesus was given. That's why we (Jews and Muslims) don't trust it.


"Rome didn't convert to Christianity. It was Christianity that converted to Rome." --Rabbi Tovia Singer

 

[DoubleClutch]

We are going in circles, breh. So I will just make this my final comment.

"Rome didn't convert to Christianity. It was Christianity that converted to Rome." --Rabbi Tovia Singer

The Trinity isn't a monotheistic belief but a pagan belief and originates from Pagans.
Egyptian mythology had the trinity of Ra (power, emotion: fatherly, anger, love, etc), Amun (Hidden or Unseen and Kingship), Ptah (Craftsman, creates by speaking things into existence)
Ra (the Sun deity) had his own Trinity: Khepre (Morning sun), Ra (Afternoon Sun), Atum (Evening Sun)
The final trinity in Egypt was Osiris (Father), Isis (Mother), and Horus (Son). The depictions of Mary and Jesus are very closely linked to that of Isis and Horus.

Hinduism has a trinity as well: Brahma(the creator), Vishnu (the preserver), and Shiva or Mahesh (the destroyer)

What about the Greco-Romans? They had the trinity of Zeus, Amun, and Jupiter.

We can also talk about Christmas, Zeus/Jupiter and God and being identical twins in paintings, and other things but it would be long and drawn out.
The trinity is clearly not a monotheistic practice but is proof of the syncretization of Roman pagan beliefs and Christianity.
@Dafunkdoc_Unlimited even had to justify this blatantly pagan belief system by accusing Jews of not understanding their own religion and that they should believe that God was a duality.

Here is another interesting fact; Muslims and Jews can pray at each other's Mosques or Synagogues,
but both can't pray at a Church or pagan temples (Buddhist, Hindu, etc.)
If Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) is such a false Prophet, why is it that "his" religion is more recognized and considered in line with Judaism even though we don't even take the Torah into account while Christians do?

Now let's talk about the Bible. How do Christians know that they have the words of God or something close to that? They don't.

Here is a quote from a Christian scholar Dr. James White on the authenticity of the Bible;
"We don't know who wrote the Book of Hebrews, but we have some good guesses."

So some books have unknown authors and not a single Book was a primary source of Jesus's ministry.

You also have inspired writers like Paul who are regular people but plenty of Prophets didn't even have scripture. Who is Paul to be writing anything? If he is writing scripture then he should be a Prophet.
But not even Christians see him like that. Then where did he get the authority to write in God's name?


Clearly, the Bible isn't the same or exact same as the one Jesus was given. That's why we (Jews and Muslims) don't trust it.


"Rome didn't convert to Christianity. It was Christianity that converted to Rome." --Rabbi Tovia Singer

a few things in my post you ignored/forgot to answer:

if the Bible was “corrupted” at some point then by my logic at one point it was not corrupted and the true word of God to his people who lived by it and passed it down.

regardless of a book/religious culture/traditions

the word of God once within someone heart can’t be corrupted and they can teach and pass down to next generations. It’s a way of life not just words in a book people depend on.

people didn’t always have a book with them to depend on

if you know you know.

Gods original word can never be wiped from this earth. That’s in the Bible.

It would defeat the purpose of God sending prophets, and communicating with people in the first place

man can’t defeat or outsmart Gods will

big since Muslims believe this happened

1. At what point in history do Muslims consider the Bible (old & New Testament) to be 100% corrupted and not to be trusted?

why would anyone would trust the Quran over the Bible/ and believe what it Muhammad says about Jesus 600 years later instead of the accounts and historical records passed down of actual followers of Jesus and the subsequent church leaders/Christian brothers from the same century?

Which explains why The Quran itself says to consult the “people of the book” if there’s any uncertainty or doubt among Muslims over scriptures.

now why would God tell Muslims to consult the people of a corrupted book?

Without asking Jews and Christians what authority do Muslims have to historically determined what to believe in the Bible and what not?

If an “Angels” message to Muhammad is your only authority then your claims about the Bible are all based on faith & belief in the supernatural not historical fact or logic.

if the latter,

give me proof of how, what happened and a year that marks when the Bible (all bibles everywhere) was determined by Muslims to corrupted making Gods/JESUS message lost to entire history AND obsolete from that date going forward (leaving the door open for the Quran to replace it)?

Last questions regarding Jesus of the Quran. Please answer.

What function does Jesus serve in the practice of Islam today different than how he’d be regarded by a non believer of Christianity?

Do you pray in his name, for example? Does he forgive your sins? Is he your King? Messiah?

What new details about Jesus was revealed in the Quran that wasn’t already common knowledge, historical writings or just shared beliefs by many people (Christians and non Christians) at time?

If Jesus didn’t exist/was not considered a prophet of God how would Islam be any different? (I already know the answer from my Christian perspective but I wanna know your Muslim perspective)?

For example, Judaism stands alone for its followers today without belief in Jesus. For 2 thousand years religious Jews haven’t needed belief in Jesus as a factor to continue practicing their Judaism

You say Islam and Judaism are very close and basically the same religion so...

2. Why do Muslims need Jesus?

You claim to believe in the God of Abraham just like the Jews yet even they don’t believe in Jesus

So why do Muslims hundreds of years later accept Jesus after he’d been widely rejected by the “people of the book” you claim to share so much in common with?

The real difference between Judaism and Islam is that you Muslims regard Muhammad as a prophet and Jews do not.

Belief in Jesus isn’t required in the practice of neither Judaism or Islam. You both pray to Allah only. You believe you EARN your salvation by works. Neither religion needs Jesus in my eyes.

but MUSLIMS believe God sent Jesus regardless.

This belief doesn’t distinguish Muslims from non Muslims however as ANYONE can believe Jesus to be a prophet/good man and still NOT be a Christian or Muslim.

What truly makes someone a Muslim and not a Jew or Christian is belief in Muhammad or the Angel who gave him the Quran

Muslims gain nothing notable from believing in Jesus (you say he didn’t come for Arabs since apparently that was Muhammad’s job later) but still you hold him in higher regard than the people he actually came for. Why? What did he do for you/the Arab Muslim people?

Believing in Jesus as just a prophet of the Jews alone doesn’t automatically make you a Muslim no different than it doesn’t make someone a Christian.

Believing in the God of Abraham doesn’t automatically make someone a Christian or a Muslim.

But believing in Muhammad is essential to Islam same as believing Jesus as Messiah/Savior/Son of God is essential to Christianity.

3. WHAT IS THE ROLE OF JESUS IN ISLAM OTHER THAN BEING A HISTORICAL FIGURE YOU RECOGNIZE AS A PROPHET?

Im not trying to debate theologically with you. So don’t answer with Bible scriptures vs Quran scriptures. Just tell me what YOU think logically/rationally. Or what your Muslim leaders say on this topic in the Mosque, discussions, etc.... Thanks

 

[Anhur]

a few things in my post you ignored/forgot to answer:

This will be my final comment on this subject and will try to the best of my ability to answer your questions.
Remember that I'm not a scholar and my answers are more based on my own logic than that of the religion so do your due diligence and research after reading.
Finally I didn't answer your questions earlier and just decided to make a final statement because you haven't responded to any of my points.
No responses to the pagan origins of the trinity, the multiple biblical verses in which Jesus is worshipping a greater being, how Muslims and Jews can't pray in Churches,
some Biblical books have unknown authors (even the Gospels), etc.
I want you to give me your thoughts on these topics. @dafs response was to manipulate scripture so I want to know what's your response.

1. At what point in history do Muslims consider the Bible (old & New Testament) to be 100% corrupted and not to be trusted?

1. From the very beginning (the first Gospel written). We Muslims don't see the Gospel of Matthew, Mark, John, and Luke as the original Gospel.
A simple question is, where is the Gospel of Jesus (the Injeel as we know it)? Even those Gospels mentioned above are not written by those Saints or Noblemen.
It's by anonymous writers who are alleging that those Gospels are according to those men. And then you have more anonymous books like Hebrews and Peter.
How can anyone believe that it's the word of God when we don't even know who's writing it? The 4 Gospels also don't completely line up with one another.
These Gospels are more similar to our Hadiths than Quran. But even our Hadiths (thousands of them) all have their authors stamped on them. You can't even say that about all the Books/Gospels.

We believe that Prophet Esa PBUH had the Injeel (Gospel) but like Muhammad and Moses (PBUT) it wasn't written but in their hearts.
Remember that the Quran, Torah, and Gospels are revelations of God. These Prophets (Peace be Upon Them) aren't walking around with books under their armpits quoting their own scripture.
The revelations come to them when needed and can be passed on to them by Gabriel. So it's up to their disciples to write them down accurately and they failed to do so except in Prophet Muhammad PBUH's case.

why would anyone would trust the Quran over the Bible/ and believe what it Muhammad says about Jesus 600 years later instead of the accounts and historical records passed down of actual followers of Jesus and the subsequent church leaders/Christian brothers from the same century?

Which explains why The Quran itself says to consult the “people of the book” if there’s any uncertainty or doubt among Muslims over scriptures.

now why would God tell Muslims to consult the people of a corrupted book?

The Quran isn't according to anyone but is directly copied from the Prophet (PBUH) and was guaranteed by Allah to be preserved because it would be the final revelation to mankind. (and it has been preserved)
We've already explained the problems with the Bible and how it contradicts the Old Testament (Trinity vs Singular God). The Quran keeps the same message of One God and no Trinity.
The Prophet (PBUH) told his companions to write down the scripture and taught them to memorize it and gave them the order of the verses and chapters.
It was only 5 years after the Prophet's death that the Quran was turned into a book. That gives the Quran an authority that none of the previous books have.
The Quran is also flawless, no contradictions, a true work of literature, has prophecies that were proven true (so do Hadiths), etc.


As I said earlier, the Quran was revealed in stages. It took 23 years for the entire Quran to be revealed. So certain verses were revealed at certain times.
The Muslims would sometimes want to be sure whether they were following the true religion so Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) who had no real knowledge about Judaism and Christianity would sometimes be tested by the Jews of Madinah.
An example was when they asked him about how many people were in the cave (in the Story of the Cave). Then Allah would reveal a verse to Prophet Muhammad saying that the # is only known by Allah. (the correct answer since even if he gave the right number they would've considered it the wrong answer).
There were other tests too, so some Jews converted while others didn't because Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) was an Ishmaelite instead of an Israelite.

Last questions regarding Jesus of the Quran. Please answer.

What function does Jesus serve in the practice of Islam today different than how he’d be regarded by a non believer of Christianity?

Do you pray in his name, for example? Does he forgive your sins? Is he your King? Messiah?

Prophet Esa PBUH was a great Prophet in our religion. He is mentioned more in the Quran than Prophet Muhammad.
We don't pray to him nor does he forgive our sins. We only pray and repent to Allah our creator.

For us, Prophet Esa PBUH will come down from heaven (2nd coming) and destroy the Anti-Christ who will deceive most of humanity with great miracles.
After destroying the Anti-Christ, he will rule the world as a just king. Everyone will be happy and there will be no poor. He will get married and eventually die and be buried next to Prophet Muhammad PBUH.
Once he arrives he will proclaim that he's not Allah but the messenger of Allah so that the Christians know not to worship him.

What new details about Jesus was revealed in the Quran that wasn’t already common knowledge, historical writings or just shared beliefs by many people (Christians and non Christians) at time?

I don't know much about the life of Prophet Esa PBUH in the Bible but I will try.
When Maryam PBUH (the mother) returned to the town with a baby she was verbally assaulted by everyone. They called her all types of names because they believed she slept with a man while not married.
Allah commanded her not to speak so she just pointed at her baby. And people continued to ridicule her until Prophet Esa PBUH spoke as a newborn and told the crowd that his mother was pure and that he's a prophet that received scripture and Allah has blessed him. That was his first miracle in Islam.

In Islam, he gave life to a bird by forming it with clay and blowing into it, brought back the dead, healed the leper and blind, etc.
In Islam Prophet Esa PBUH was asked by his disciples for Allah to bring down a table from heaven filled with food so their hearts could be content that they are following the right religion.
We also differ on the crucifixion. We believe that Allah raised Prophet Esa PBUH away from harm and that the Romans were made to believe that they executed him. So he's still alive to us even today.
We also have differing opinions on his 2nd coming.

If Jesus didn’t exist/was not considered a prophet of God how would Islam be any different? (I already know the answer from my Christian perspective but I wanna know your Muslim perspective)?

For example, Judaism stands alone for its followers today without belief in Jesus. For 2 thousand years religious Jews haven’t needed belief in Jesus as a factor to continue practicing their Judaism

You say Islam and Judaism are very close and basically the same religion so...

Only Allah truly knows the answer to that.

Judaism and Islam differ a lot. The only thing we have in common is we vaguely believe in the same Prophets and we both worship only Allah with no trinity or partners.
We also believe that the Old Testament is corrupt as well. The Quran was meant to correct the mistakes in the Old Testament and New Testament (I didn't say Torah or Injeel as those were perfect and need no correction).
Some examples would be the Quran completely absolving the crimes that the Old Testament writers accused some Prophets of like Solomon's adultery and Murder, Noah's naked drunkenness and cursing, Job's blasphemy, Lot's daughter raping him, etc.
The Quran clears their name by saying none of that ever happened. Why would Allah send men who can't even act properly to be our Prophets? My father was a better man than Biblical Solomon or Job.
Prophets are meant to the noblest of men and to be examples for mankind. And in the Quran, Allah would severely punish a Prophet far more than a regular person if they made such a mistake.
Allah doesn't send clowns. A clear example was Yunus PBUH (Jonah). He only left his land without Allah's permission and was eaten by a large sea creature. Imagine if Solomon actually committed adultery or Job saying blasphemous things.
BTW, Satan said that he would make Job blaspheme against the creator but the creator didn't believe he would. So did Satan had more foresight than God? That's proof of corruption in the Old Testament.

2. Why do Muslims need Jesus?

I think you underestimate Prophet Esa's PBUH position in Islam, breh. You can't be a Muslim without recognizing Prophet Esa PBUH as a Prophet.
This goes for all Prophets as well though, including Prophet Muhammad PBUH. We recognize him as the Messiah that the Jews rejected.
To believe in all the Prophets is one of the 6 Pillars of Iman (faith) in Islam.
We have plenty of differences between Judaism and Islam brehs. They're two completely different religions. We only respect each other as true monotheists. That's it.
BTW I'm not Arab I'm black.

3. WHAT IS THE ROLE OF JESUS IN ISLAM OTHER THAN BEING A HISTORICAL FIGURE YOU RECOGNIZE AS A PROPHET?
Im not trying to debate theologically with you. So don’t answer with Bible scriptures vs Quran scriptures. Just tell me what YOU think logically/rationally. Or what your Muslim leaders say on this topic in the Mosque, discussions, etc.... Thanks

I already answered this question above.

This took my slow ass an hour to write up so the least I expect is for you to answer my questions above, breh

 

[SwizzLake]

We appreciate your input brother, I know how frustrating it is to get the message across, but we tried @Anhur

 

[DoubleClutch]

This will be my final comment on this subject and will try to the best of my ability to answer your questions.
Remember that I'm not a scholar and my answers are more based on my own logic than that of the religion so do your due diligence and research after reading.
Finally I didn't answer your questions earlier and just decided to make a final statement because you haven't responded to any of my points.
No responses to the pagan origins of the trinity, the multiple biblical verses in which Jesus is worshipping a greater being, how Muslims and Jews can't pray in Churches,
some Biblical books have unknown authors (even the Gospels), etc.
I want you to give me your thoughts on these topics. @dafs response was to manipulate scripture so I want to know what's your response.




1. From the very beginning (the first Gospel written). We Muslims don't see the Gospel of Matthew, Mark, John, and Luke as the original Gospel.
A simple question is, where is the Gospel of Jesus (the Injeel as we know it)? Even those Gospels mentioned above are not written by those Saints or Noblemen.
It's by anonymous writers who are alleging that those Gospels are according to those men. And then you have more anonymous books like Hebrews and Peter.
How can anyone believe that it's the word of God when we don't even know who's writing it? The 4 Gospels also don't completely line up with one another.
These Gospels are more similar to our Hadiths than Quran. But even our Hadiths (thousands of them) all have their authors stamped on them. You can't even say that about all the Books/Gospels.

We believe that Prophet Esa PBUH had the Injeel (Gospel) but like Muhammad and Moses (PBUT) it wasn't written but in their hearts.
Remember that the Quran, Torah, and Gospels are revelations of God. These Prophets (Peace be Upon Them) aren't walking around with books under their armpits quoting their own scripture.
The revelations come to them when needed and can be passed on to them by Gabriel. So it's up to their disciples to write them down accurately and they failed to do so except in Prophet Muhammad PBUH's case.


The Quran isn't according to anyone but is directly copied from the Prophet (PBUH) and was guaranteed by Allah to be preserved because it would be the final revelation to mankind. (and it has been preserved)
We've already explained the problems with the Bible and how it contradicts the Old Testament (Trinity vs Singular God). The Quran keeps the same message of One God and no Trinity.
The Prophet (PBUH) told his companions to write down the scripture and taught them to memorize it and gave them the order of the verses and chapters.
It was only 5 years after the Prophet's death that the Quran was turned into a book. That gives the Quran an authority that none of the previous books have.
The Quran is also flawless, no contradictions, a true work of literature, has prophecies that were proven true (so do Hadiths), etc.


As I said earlier, the Quran was revealed in stages. It took 23 years for the entire Quran to be revealed. So certain verses were revealed at certain times.
The Muslims would sometimes want to be sure whether they were following the true religion so Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) who had no real knowledge about Judaism and Christianity would sometimes be tested by the Jews of Madinah.
An example was when they asked him about how many people were in the cave (in the Story of the Cave). Then Allah would reveal a verse to Prophet Muhammad saying that the # is only known by Allah. (the correct answer since even if he gave the right number they would've considered it the wrong answer).
There were other tests too, so some Jews converted while others didn't because Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) was an Ishmaelite instead of an Israelite.


Prophet Esa PBUH was a great Prophet in our religion. He is mentioned more in the Quran than Prophet Muhammad.
We don't pray to him nor does he forgive our sins. We only pray and repent to Allah our creator.

For us, Prophet Esa PBUH will come down from heaven (2nd coming) and destroy the Anti-Christ who will deceive most of humanity with great miracles.
After destroying the Anti-Christ, he will rule the world as a just king. Everyone will be happy and there will be no poor. He will get married and eventually die and be buried next to Prophet Muhammad PBUH.
Once he arrives he will proclaim that he's not Allah but the messenger of Allah so that the Christians know not to worship him.


I don't know much about the life of Prophet Esa PBUH in the Bible but I will try.
When Maryam PBUH (the mother) returned to the town with a baby she was verbally assaulted by everyone. They called her all types of names because they believed she slept with a man while not married.
Allah commanded her not to speak so she just pointed at her baby. And people continued to ridicule her until Prophet Esa PBUH spoke as a newborn and told the crowd that his mother was pure and that he's a prophet that received scripture and Allah has blessed him. That was his first miracle in Islam.

In Islam, he gave life to a bird by forming it with clay and blowing into it, brought back the dead, healed the leper and blind, etc.
In Islam Prophet Esa PBUH was asked by his disciples for Allah to bring down a table from heaven filled with food so their hearts could be content that they are following the right religion.
We also differ on the crucifixion. We believe that Allah raised Prophet Esa PBUH away from harm and that the Romans were made to believe that they executed him. So he's still alive to us even today.
We also have differing opinions on his 2nd coming.


Only Allah truly knows the answer to that.

Judaism and Islam differ a lot. The only thing we have in common is we vaguely believe in the same Prophets and we both worship only Allah with no trinity or partners.
We also believe that the Old Testament is corrupt as well. The Quran was meant to correct the mistakes in the Old Testament and New Testament (I didn't say Torah or Injeel as those were perfect and need no correction).
Some examples would be the Quran completely absolving the crimes that the Old Testament writers accused some Prophets of like Solomon's adultery and Murder, Noah's naked drunkenness and cursing, Job's blasphemy, Lot's daughter raping him, etc.
The Quran clears their name by saying none of that ever happened. Why would Allah send men who can't even act properly to be our Prophets? My father was a better man than Biblical Solomon or Job.
Prophets are meant to the noblest of men and to be examples for mankind. And in the Quran, Allah would severely punish a Prophet far more than a regular person if they made such a mistake.
Allah doesn't send clowns. A clear example was Yunus PBUH (Jonah). He only left his land without Allah's permission and was eaten by a large sea creature. Imagine if Solomon actually committed adultery or Job saying blasphemous things.
BTW, Satan said that he would make Job blaspheme against the creator but the creator didn't believe he would. So did Satan had more foresight than God? That's proof of corruption in the Old Testament.

I think you underestimate Prophet Esa's PBUH position in Islam, breh. You can't be a Muslim without recognizing Prophet Esa PBUH as a Prophet.
This goes for all Prophets as well though, including Prophet Muhammad PBUH. We recognize him as the Messiah that the Jews rejected.
To believe in all the Prophets is one of the 6 Pillars of Iman (faith) in Islam.
We have plenty of differences between Judaism and Islam brehs. They're two completely different religions. We only respect each other as true monotheists. That's it.
BTW I'm not Arab I'm black.


I already answered this question above.

This took my slow ass an hour to write up so the least I expect is for you to answer my questions above, breh

Ok. I’ll answer your questions in another post.

I just want to respond to the rest of this post for you and anyone else readying so they can focus on the topic.

 

[Spiritual Stratocaster]

Now let's talk about the Bible. How do Christians know that they have the words of God or something close to that? They don't.

IDK..perhaps The Holy spirit and personal revelation while reading.

 

[Spiritual Stratocaster]

Some examples would be the Quran completely absolving the crimes that the Old Testament writers accused some Prophets of like Solomon's adultery and Murder, Noah's naked drunkenness and cursing, Job's blasphemy, Lot's daughter raping him, etc.
The Quran clears their name by saying none of that ever happened. Why would Allah send men who can't even act properly to be our Prophets? My father was a better man than Biblical Solomon or Job.

Im interested in your thoughts, you have good insight which is why I ask

You mean David?

Or are you talking about Solomon having a 1000 wives? And the murder are you talking about him murdering his brother(I think it was his brother..the dude asked Bathsheeba to ask Solomon for a wife and solomon got pissed).

 

[DoubleClutch]

Im interested in your thoughts, you have good insight which is why I ask

You mean David?

Or are you talking about Solomon having a 1000 wives? And the murder are you talking about him murdering his brother(I think it was his brother..the dude asked Bathsheeba to ask Solomon for a wife and solomon got pissed).

Don’t listen to him, breh it’s pointless

read the Bible and you’ll find fault in almost every major Bible figure, leader, prophet, king, etc.... starting from Adam and even to Kane and Abel. It’s the reoccurring theme of the entire Bible.

They all sinned. That didn’t mean they were all “bad people”... especially David.

In the Old Testament, God didn’t choose “perfect” individuals as his messengers but he did use those unlikely individuals we could all relate to who were loyal and would eventually get the job done and give God the glory.

I don’t think he understands if you change the stories and make all the prophets “sinless robots” without free will, it defeats the whole purpose of the Bible and the overarching message God is sending throughout the narrative to his people

Also it just wouldn’t be very realistic, honest writing or stories you could believe actually happened. It would just be a made up fairytale or sugarcoated version.

it also changes literally every thing about Jewish religious history and the beliefs/traditions and customs they hold to this day.

he said, “Quran completely absolving the crimes the crimes of the prophets”

By what authority does the Quran have to absolve any “crimes” let alone judge the Bible, a book which was written about people and events that happened thousands of years before Muhammad was even born?

Muslims today look at the Jewish bible in hindsight and judge it’s prophets on a narrow surface level POV based on their own limited knowledge of Judaism, religious and cultural biases and beliefs, not understanding the bigger picture and deeper meaning.

Muslims don’t understand the Bible or even attempt to because if they did they’d realize Islam is a false religion which contradicts Gods will/plan for his people (all people).

Everything happens for a reason in the Bible, even murder, adultery, etc.... just like in real life bad things happen, mistakes are made and good can still come out of it in the long run it’s all part of the story which proves ultimately God is in control.

When Muhammad changes a single Old Testament story/figure he basically sets off a domino effect that requires changing everything else that comes after, making the original Bible corrupted, obsolete, useless to Jews/Christians or in other words.... the Quran.

 

[DoubleClutch]

We appreciate your input brother, I know how frustrating it is to get the message across, but we tried @Anhur

maybe you or @Anhur could respond to this video... I literally just saw on my timeline

this was exactly one of my issues I brought up in my previous posts

However this guy words it better, and calls it the

“Quran dilemma”

this along with the “omniscience fallacy” are my main problems/criticisms of Islam from a Judeo-Christian perspective.

this is a much bigger issue than say, trying to explain Jesus as the son of God or the idea of a “trinity” for Muslims because FIRST Islam as a whole must make sense before it’s followers can question what Christians believe

 

[Anhur]

IDK..perhaps The Holy spirit and personal revelation while reading.

How do you know the Holy Spirit revealed those things and why would anonymous writers get revelations from God when that's the job of Prophets?

Just so you know, the Trinity as you know it today (3 co-equal parts Son, Father, Spirit), did not exist until almost three hundred years after Jesus.
That was a concept brought forth by the council of Nicaea. Before that, they didn't believe the Son or Spirit was equal to the Father. (they were subordinate)
That's why I asked earlier where is the Gospel of Jesus so it can clear this all up because all we have are the Gospels of John, Luke, Mark, and Matthew.
And it isn't even their Gospel but it's according to them. So it was written by anonymous writers and it's up to their interpretations.
So Matthew or John could've said one thing but the anonymous author misunderstood and wrote down his misinterpretation.

Im interested in your thoughts, you have good insight which is why I ask

You mean David?

Or are you talking about Solomon having a 1000 wives? And the murder are you talking about him murdering his brother(I think it was his brother..the dude asked Bathsheeba to ask Solomon for a wife and solomon got pissed).

Thanks for the correction breh. I was talking about David's adultery with Bethsheba and his murder of her husband which is horribly unbecoming of a Prophet and one of the wisest Kings in history.
We don't believe Prophets are sinless as @DoubleClutch said, we believe that they are the best of people
which still makes them sinners, but they repent more and their sins aren't major like murder, adultery, or blasphemy. (most regular people don't even do those)
If you have time breh, watch this video. It goes through 4 examples of Prophets in Islam vs the Old Testament.

maybe you or @Anhur could respond to this video... I literally just saw on my timeline

I've already answered that in my comment above.

This will be my final comment on this subject and will try to the best of my ability to answer your questions.
As I said earlier, the Quran was revealed in stages. It took 23 years for the entire Quran to be revealed. So certain verses were revealed at certain times.
The Muslims would sometimes want to be sure whether they were following the true religion so Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) who had no real knowledge about Judaism and Christianity would sometimes be tested by the Jews of Madinah.
An example was when they asked him about how many people were in the cave (in the Story of the Cave). Then Allah would reveal a verse to Prophet Muhammad saying that the # is only known by Allah. (the correct answer since even if he gave the right number they would've considered it the wrong answer).
There were other tests too, so some Jews converted while others didn't because Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) was an Ishmaelite instead of an Israelite.

It's been a week breh, and instead of answering my questions, you asked me another one

My questions are in the first paragraph of my comment above.