Religion/Spirituality Atheism and the black community...good read

[intilectual recipricol]

Where does this bad behavior you speak of rear its head and how is it counterproductive to society....And since the overwhelming majority of the population is christian to some degree, you're willing to surmise that the majority of U.S. population don't believe in accountability?

You can see this bad behavior on the news, daily, 24 hours a day. You can see how its counter productive to society by the results. No, I dont think the majority of the US population believes in accountability, why would they when Jesus can be accountable? The church teaches that all you have to do, no matter what, is ask Jesus for forgiveness and youre okay (sorry, I try to fit those smilies in where ever I can)

by definition that is NOT believing in accountability. As an atheist I dont believe I have some magical entity forgiving me and making anything wrong I do okay. If I do some shyt, I have to address it and live with the results and consequences here on earth.

 

[The Real]

I am sick of genuflection to this ideal because it supposedly "did something for us Blacks".

The interesting thing about this point is to what extent religious revivals in America more generally contributed specifically to the religiosity of Black folks more than once in history. There were actually several periods of religious decline where atheism was much more accepted, not only in America at large, but in African American populations as well. There are even some old, obscure folk songs and such that poke fun at religion. The narrative about the contributions of religion to Black progress were actually inflated retroactively due to the last major such religious revival, which really stuck in the Black community in particular.

 

[TrueEpic08]

@TrueEpic08

why nihilistic? I always felt that once I abandoned belief I found MORE reason for existence and life than I ever did when a "believer"... As a Christian I never could find the purpose in life if that next stage was so much better, may as well die now. Now that I recognize that there's nothing after this life I find more reason to live and do stuff--even if its for the short period of time we're here.

I define Nihilism as Existential Nihilism, the fact that life intrinsically has no meaning, and that most religions and philosophies are built to counteract the distinct possibility that there is nothing and that there can only be nothing. From Christianity to Buddhism (though Buddhism is least in line with these constructions...) and just about any philosophy you can think of, the distinct possibility that is being fought against on a subtextual, invisible level is the possibility of there being no foundation at all in a mind-independent reality.

When you reject Christianity, I believe that the possibility of nothingness has to come into mind, because you are essentially breaking from a construct, a way of ordering and interpreting the world. Rather than replace it with humanist values or any type of moralism, I simply accepted that there is no inherent meaning or basis to a mind-independent reality, that, no matter how we try to apprehend it narratively or ideologically, it will not happen. This is true liberation, and widens speculative possibilities (whether they be into scientific principles, sociology, literature, or anything else) infinitely.

You post was really interesting... but damn. Is this really true^?

I'm not Christian, but I don't hate on black Christians for a few reasons....

Even tho more than 80 percent of us claim Christianity, the majority of us don't speak, practice, attend church, do any of that sh1t.. we just say what we know. The majority of black americans wouldn't call into question your 'Blackness' due to you being atheist.

Also,
-They mean well.
-Metaphorically, they aren't wrong about too much, imo.

Historically they been helpful to my people:
-I'm an escaped slave... who will help me? - the black church.
-I need people to organize my community during reconstruction and jim crow - the black Christian will be a major help for us.
-I'm a lost and downtrodden person, who will try (w good intentions) to lift my spirits? - In most black communities some churches do a good job at that.
-Newly freed slaves who were lost or had nowhere to go in the South - The black church would get on that missionary sh1t and save them and really emaciate them.
-We need a leader to work with politicians so that we can at least get some basic rights in modern times.. MLK and the church leaders will be a big help with that.
- Some of us r on that Black liberation ideology - most aren't Christians, but Christians did the heavy lift to get that sh1t off the ground.
-I'm gay or live an alternative lifestyle - Christians aren't that open to all that; but there are a few Churches that have black gay members and church officials.
-We need people, that no matter how we talk about them or try to discredit them will try to help and fight for our people. There are the few greedy preachers, but the majority care deeply about us and some of that compassion is rooted in their faith.

The bolded is incredibly problematic, and actually part of the reason why my being comes into question when I proclaim my Atheism: It's so accepted, it is a priori a part of being Black, that for some people you can't be authentically Black (or even human) without it.

What exactly do you mean when you say that "Metaphorically, they aren't wrong about much".

And those principles that you extol when talking about the Black Church have nothing to do with the Black church, and have more to do with ethics than anything. Any person could've done those things, any construct. The fact that you're attributing them to the Black Church as a means of defending its existence rather than realizing this point is also extremely problematic for me.

 

[Blackking]

This is true, but of what you wrote literally ZERO percent has to do with the Christian belief system.

Blacks say atheists were unseen civil rights heroes

Here is a USA Today article that touches on the subject of prominent blacks in the Civil Rights movement who were non-believers.

I agree that most blacks who say they are Christians don't act or believe this way.... but I've studied Christianity and I thought this sh1t was what they are about.

Christians got the publicity because we live in america. I guess there were atheist 'heroes' But I'm not extremely sympathetic to that point, simply because I'm Muslim... and it was black Muslims that helped keep our pride, dignity and fight and nonconformity going through the 50-70's.

ntm, some of the people on that list (and all list of black civil rights atheist) contain people who hated on organized religion, who were free thinkers... but really did believe in some type of higher power or were at least agnostic.

 

[intilectual recipricol]

I define Nihilism as Existential Nihilism, the fact that life intrinsically has no meaning, and that most religions and philosophies are built to counteract the distinct possibility that there is nothing and that there can only be nothing. From Christianity to Buddhism (though Buddhism is least in line with these constructions...) and just about any philosophy you can think of, the distinct possibility that is being fought against on a subtextual, invisible level is the possibility of there being no foundation at all in a mind-independent reality.

When you reject Christianity, I believe that the possibility of nothingness has to come into mind, because you are essentially breaking from a construct, a way of ordering and interpreting the world. Rather than replace it with humanist values or any type of moralism, I simply accepted that there is no inherent meaning or basis to a mind-independent reality, that, no matter how we try to apprehend it narratively or ideologically, it will not happen. This is true liberation, and widens speculative possibilities (whether they be into scientific principles, sociology, literature, or anything else) infinitely.

Oh, I see. I agree, there is no "purpose" to life OTHER THAN what we give it. But I saw religion as a fake "purpose". what kind of purpose is worshiping some invisible schmuck in the sky? When I rejected Christianity, my purpose became what I wanted it to be. Even if it be to do nothing at all. But "nothingness" probably only came to mind FOR YOU because you saw religion as a purpose instead of a dead end.

 

[Blackking]

The bolded is incredibly problematic, and actually part of the reason why my being comes into question when I proclaim my Atheism: It's so accepted, it is a priori a part of being Black, that for some people you can't be authentically Black (or even human) without it.

What exactly do you mean when you say that "Metaphorically, they aren't wrong about much".

And those principles that you extol when talking about the Black Church have nothing to do with the Black church, and have more to do with ethics than anything. Any person could've done those things, any construct. The fact that you're attributing them to the Black Church as a means of defending its existence rather than realizing this point is also extremely problematic for me.

Any person or group could have done those things... but the truth is Black Christians have played their role for our people and causes, and I'm not going to hate on them just because they believe differently than I do.

When I tell people I'm Muslim, 90% of the time, they r like whatever. And if they do say something it's just asking when did I become that (because they assume that all black Americans should be Christian. The average n1gga truthfully could care less if ur an atheist. The average n1gga truthfully could care less if you were alive or not.

There are studies that show that atheist aren't trusted more than rapist.. But that is hardwired into human culture just because of the events and situations in the last 200K years. I think that's an ignorant way of thinking, but most people are ignorant, so what r u gonna do?

Metaphorically, the Bible has lessons and good points that you can take from it. for example.. harder for a wealthy man to get into heaven than a camel threw a needle (or something like that). There are maddd quotes in the book to make you think about things. You don't have to be Buddhist to gain insight from Buddhist teachings.

 

[intilectual recipricol]

I agree that most blacks who say they are Christians don't act or believe this way.... but I've studied Christianity and I thought this sh1t was what they are about.

Christians got the publicity because we live in america. I guess there were atheist 'heroes' But I'm not extremely sympathetic to that point, simply because I'm Muslim... and it was black Muslims that helped keep our pride, dignity and fight and nonconformity going through the 50-70's.

ntm, some of the people on that list (and all list of black civil rights atheist) contain people who hated on organized religion, who were free thinkers... but really did believe in some type of higher power or were at least agnostic.

I can agree with that as well too... I am much more partial to what Malcolm X was talking in terms of Civil Rights than Martin... if they wont willingly give you your rights you have to physically take them. But thats philosophical not theological.

I disagree with you that people who claim to be Christian, not acting as such. To me, to be Christian means to be judgmental, bigoted, opposed to rational thought, gullible, hypocritical, etc... I dont get that view of Christianity soley from existing around them, I get that from the bible, then I can see exactly why thats how they behave today. The concept portrayed by people as to what "christianity" is and what the bible describes are two different things.

As far as believing in a higher power, its hard to say simply because our wealth of knowledge is ever increasing. That belief in a higher power but not the organized religions of the day could be due to no available answer for a question that we now know today, making the prospect of a "higher power" a little bit more plausible. And deism isnt even something I consider because it has no affect one way or the other. deism is basically atheism.

 

[Blackking]

I can agree with that as well too... I am much more partial to what Malcolm X was talking in terms of Civil Rights than Martin... if they wont willingly give you your rights you have to physically take them. But thats philosophical not theological.

I disagree with you that people who claim to be Christian, not acting as such. To me, to be Christian means to be judgmental, bigoted, opposed to rational thought, gullible, hypocritical, etc... I dont get that view of Christianity soley from existing around them, I get that from the bible, then I can see exactly why thats how they behave today. The concept portrayed by people as to what "christianity" is and what the bible describes are two different things.

As far as believing in a higher power, its hard to say simply because our wealth of knowledge is ever increasing. That belief in a higher power but not the organized religions of the day could be due to no available answer for a question that we now know today, making the prospect of a "higher power" a little bit more plausible.

Ok, black Christians are especially prone to be unwilling to hear anything out side of their frame of thinking.... I agree. that is true for most.

And deism isnt even something I consider because it has no affect one way or the other. deism is basically atheism.

Can you explain this last part further? Both are claiming to use clear logic and reason.... but for two different conclusions.

 

[Snitchin Splatter]

Black atheists get shunned by their community family and friends everyday, b. Whats the problem? I actually think it's quite appropriate

 

[TrueEpic08]

Any person or group could have done those things... but the truth is Black Christians have played their role for our people and causes, and I'm not going to hate on them just because they believe differently than I do.

When I tell people I'm Muslim, 90% of the time, they r like whatever. And if they do say something it's just asking when did I become that (because they assume that all black Americans should be Christian. The average n1gga truthfully could care less if ur an atheist. The average n1gga truthfully could care less if you were alive or not.

There are studies that show that atheist aren't trusted more than rapist.. But that is hardwired into human culture just because of the events and situations in the last 200K years. I think that's an ignorant way of thinking, but most people are ignorant, so what r u gonna do?

Metaphorically, the Bible has lessons and good points that you can take from it. for example.. harder for a wealthy man to get into heaven than a camel threw a needle (or something like that). There are maddd quotes in the book to make you think about things. You don't have to be Buddhist to gain insight from Buddhist teachings.

Well, of course you don't hate the people themselves, you critique (or at least detach yourself from) their beliefs.

Other than the point you made about Black Christians (yes, its true that they did a lot, but so do Christians/Muslims/Jews/Buddhists/Etc. of every race. Should I relent because of that, should I give up my opposition? I don't think so) and the point in the second paragraph (most times among Blacks, I get intense questioning for being Atheist, and sometimes get outright hostility. I've observed this in others I know, and in history and media as well. Others tend to care quite a bit less, even when fiercely religious. It truly is a monolith that needs to be crushed and killed among Blacks), I understand everything else. And I'm not saying eradicate the Bible or anything, just like I wouldn't say eradicate the Rig Veda or the Diamond Sutra or the Qur'an or any mythological text, because much can be gleaned historically and culturally from it. I abhor its religious interpretations, though.

(I'm starting to sound like those Anti-Theists I dislike so much now...they hate as much as religious zealots, which should be condemned as much as that zealotry. Really, just being able to live and see others of my culture live without being questioned or semi-discriminated against would be enough. Eliminating it would be nice, to observe if nothing else, but isn't really necessary).

 

[Mr. Negative]

Youre underestimating the power of having that message ingrained into your society. The church's MAIN TENET is the absolute opposite of accountability. It states you are evil, but its okay because this other perfect person will take the punishment for your evilness. The church is the exact opposite of accountability.

They ALWAYS use the devil as a scapegoat "the devil been a liar and murderer since the beginning" when the story actually shows and PROVES the only liar and killer was god. So Christians are taught to LIE and have it ingrained in them to lie.

There often are reasons for woes, those are not necessarily excuses. I cant take the blame for slavery, nor the subsequent institutionalized racism, and subsequent consequences. Theyre just not my fault. Capitalism guarantees that a segment of the population will be poor. Theres no way around it. Its not an excuse, its a reason. The man? You dont think the US government has anything to do with the woeful state of some demographics in the country?

youre not addressing BEHAVIOR. The church's teachings is conducive to bad behavior because as a doctrine they teach non-accountability and the evil nature of humans. If I teach a dog to attack, guess what it will do...

I don't like your treatment and blatant disrespect of the name and legacy of The Honorable Reverend Good Doctor Nasir Abin Olu Dara Jones.... .....


but you got a good mind for this shyt.

 

[intilectual recipricol]

Can you explain this last part further? Both are claiming to use clear logic and reason.... but for two different conclusions.

deism is the belief that there is a creator. Nothing more. It doesnt interfere with any events on earth or want anything at all. There is no explanation as to how this creation occurred. Deism accepts scientific findings.

The "god" of deism may as well not be a god at all and its existence has no bearing on anything and is no different from its non-existence after creation. Frankly it just doesnt matter of the god of deism exists or not.

 

[Black Magisterialness]

The bolded is incredibly problematic, and actually part of the reason why my being comes into question when I proclaim my Atheism: It's so accepted, it is a priori a part of being Black, that for some people you can't be authentically Black (or even human) without it.

What exactly do you mean when you say that "Metaphorically, they aren't wrong about much".

And those principles that you extol when talking about the Black Church have nothing to do with the Black church, and have more to do with ethics than anything. Any person could've done those things, any construct. The fact that you're attributing them to the Black Church as a means of defending its existence rather than realizing this point is also extremely problematic for me.

Powerful Post....i think that's why i was happy that i was raised by a spiritual family but no one that was overly religious. I was actually encouraged to find my own truth.

I think as more blacks obtain higher education and exposure to other cultures that this is expected.

The culture of the black church i really don't ascribe too...the hollerin, the social aspects...the politics...it has nothing to do with spirituality imo...so i choose not to participate in it...i'm still a christian but i think many of these churches aren't out here pushing the gospel and more concerned with just having more members.

Black Atheism is a logical progression i think.

I how ever met an Arab Agnostic...which made me she literally told me "I don't even know why i continue to cover my head" but then again a logical progression...

 

[Field Marshall Bradley]

You can see this bad behavior on the news, daily, 24 hours a day. You can see how its counter productive to society by the results. No, I dont think the majority of the US population believes in accountability, why would they when Jesus can be accountable? The church teaches that all you have to do, no matter what, is ask Jesus for forgiveness and youre okay (sorry, I try to fit those smilies in where ever I can)

by definition that is NOT believing in accountability. As an atheist I dont believe I have some magical entity forgiving me and making anything wrong I do okay. If I do some shyt, I have to address it and live with the results and consequences here on earth.

You talking out of 2 sides of your mouth now. So lack of education, violence in the community, lack of resources, poor school systems, institutionalized racism, etc, no role model in the household, don't contribute to bad behavior from kids. That is all religion's fault?

And to say that the majority of the population does not hold itself accountable, yet, this is still the most powerful nation in the world and has been for the last 120 years easily, is the definition of accountability....

You can't sustain a highly functioning society for this long without the basic component, which is the people, holding themselves accountable to a degree....

Everyone would be on welfare, wic, food stamps, or any other social program if that was the case.....

And using this logic means that there would have been no slave rebellions or civil rights movement.......Because if negroes didn't feel accountable for the future of their kids and their own freedom, they would have never been motivated to act.

 

[Dusty Bake Activate]

Most people don't take responsibility for their actions, and it has nothing to do with religion

In the most generalized sense, religion does not preach accountability imo. It does preach responsibility but only to God and to the church.

There is a mandate to serve God's demands, but that is not always in-line with personal responsibility for one's actions on an ethical basis, and it restricts freedom by confining the totality of the human experience to the whims of mysticism and what was written in a book in the Bronze Age.

I can't count how many times I've heard people talking about "putting it in God's hands" when they face obstacles, which is essentially waving a white flag and saying you can't solve a problem or handle things. All you can do is get your prayer and church fix like drug addict to give you temporary solace.

Devout religious folks always talk about God's plan and how God will work things out and everything happened because of God's will. This mentality takes away responsibility from people and inhibits their drive to change things in their life in many cases because they have already relinquished responsibility to God.

And there's always the ever-present blame Satan. Someone I knew years back got killed in a freak accident. She was in a drama-filled relationship with a dude and they actually pulled over on a highway in and were fighting outside the car and spilled on to the road. She got hit by a car and died. She was super-religious and I went to her funeral snd listened to the preacher blame her death on "the thief" a.k.a. Satan.

That's anecdotal, but it reflects the prominent mentality in most of the church. Blame the bad on Satan, everything you don't understand is God moving in mysterious ways, what you have difficulty changing is God's plan.

And I didn't even mention the sin-forgiveness thing. People "sin" and have no qualms about it because they have the scapegoat of they will be forgiven if they repent.

At a time when black people are in desperate need of more personal responsibility, more thinking outside of the box, more new solutions to sociological ills, more questioning of authority and tradition, and more scientific knowledge to compete in the world, the church and Christianity is and has nothing to offer on a collective level.