At this point, its getting hard to deny LeBron is the best to ever pickup a Basketball

[Sunalmighty]

You named 5 guys out of 30 starting power forwards in the league and they were all 1st options other than Rodman (Coleman was maybe a 1b). Grant was in the next tier, around 7th/8th best in power forward in the league like Otis Thorpe, but for the Bulls he was the 3RD/4TH OPTION. You see the difference?





Doesn't matter what BJ did later for other teams, the year after MJ left he put up 15ppg and 4apg on 48/44/86 splits and made the All-Star game. Back in the 1990s, that a fantastic player to have for your 3rd/4th option.

Year after MJ left, Horace Grant put up 15-11-3 with strong defense and made the All-Star Game.

And then Scottie was 3rd in MVP voting that same year.

Again, how many teams in that era had players better than that as their 2nd/3rd/4th options? How many teams could have lost their star, replaced him with an Italian League player, and still won 55 games the next year? The Bulls' supporting cast was as good or better than anyone in the league, before we even get to Phil Jackson as coach.






You forgot John Paxson. And Bill Cartwright was a former All-Star/20ppg scorer who was still just 33yo when they won their first title, he was fine as a 5th/6th option. Same for Luc Longley.

Weird that you're dissing decent centers when Chicago was facing guys like washed Kevin Duckworth, Mark West, Frank Brickowski, and Greg Ostertag. Literally the only Finals that Chicago had a disadvantage at center was 1991 going against rookie Divac, and it didn't matter in the end cause Worthy was hurt.

By the time you talk about King and Hansen, you're literally talking about Chicago's 11th/12th men. How many teams could even PLAY deeper than 7-8 guys? Yet the Bulls had 11th/12th men on the court in the 4th quarter of clinching Finals games making critical comebacks.

i named them because you said he was one of the best power forwards in the league. the guys i mentioned were better and i should have added danny manning to the list, he was more skilled. horace was below those guys like i mentioned. i never denied the fact that he was good

im not taking bill cartwright or longley dude no way. cartwright was born in 1957 and was an all star in 1980. that nikka was mad old in chicago he was just a body

luc longley, winnington, will perdue????? stacey king man them nikkas was SCRUBS

 

[Professor Emeritus]

i named them because you said he was one of the best power forwards in the league. the guys i mentioned were better and i should have added danny manning to the list, he was more skilled. horace was below those guys like i mentioned. i never denied the fact that he was good

im not taking bill cartwright or longley dude no way. cartwright was born in 1957 and was an all star in 1980. that nikka was mad old in chicago he was just a body

luc longley, winnington, will perdue????? stacey king man them nikkas was SCRUBS

WTF, why are you naming bench guys I didn't even name? You're not even addressing anything I said about the ones I did name and ignored every question I asked. EVERY team had scrubs, most teams couldn't even play anyone past the 7th/8th man. While the Bulls could play their 10th/11th/12th men in critical moments and have them perform.

Whatever you say about Cartwright and Longley, they were more than good enough when the opponents were starting Ostertag, Brickowski, West, and washed Duckworth. That's the whole point - you have to compare them to the Bulls' OPPONENT in a diluted expansion era, not to some imaginary modern team.

 

[Professor Emeritus]

yeah....YEAH his ALL STAR team mates form an L backwards

Now write how many healthy seasons each of those played with him.

It's goofy to name Z who was only decent when Bron had no one (might as well have listed Charles Oakley for MJ). Love and Irving only finished 2 healthy seasons each with Bron and only overlapped in one of them. AD overlapped with no one. Wade and Bosh had 3-4 each and were declining by the end.

Scottie alone overlapped with Jordan for 10 seasons, and was good for 9 of those. And ALL of the good seasons that Grant, Rodman, Kukoc, Armstrong, Kerr, Harper etc. played with Jordan, they had Pippen there too.


Now, the part you completely left out. Who were their opponents? Bron faced the Spurs dynasty, the Warriors dynasty, the Thunder Big Three, and took a title off of all of them. Did MJ ever take a title off a single good team that wasn't washed? A single team that the 2012 Thunder wouldn't have swept, let's not even talk about the Spurs or Warriors? If the Bulls didn't exist, who would have won? The 1990s would have been the most forgettable decade since the 3pt-line was introduced. It was a fukking expansion era.

 

[murksiderock]

Since many think Jordan has cemented the #1 GOAT position of all time I want to know has LeBron cemented himself as #2 of all time? Do ya'll think anyone can ever leap Bron for that #2 spot going forward?

And to state my opinion, I thought MJ was the GOAT especially after 2011, but since then LeBron has accomplished his greatest feats with that 2016 Chip putting him back in the convo. I loved his 2018 playoff run hitting all those game winners despite not winning the Chip. And also what keeps LeBron very close to MJ imo is the eye test.

I have never seen anyone with the explosion, speed, quickness plus basketball IQ that LeBron has. Just look at that Pelicans game at 38 moving at an entirely different speed than everyone on the court. He's been doing that since I first seen him vs the Kings in 03 (I didn't buy into the hype of a HS nikka ). And while Jordan was supremely athletic I never seen him just move at a different speed like that. Think back to the 2016 Finals and that block on Iggy, JVG's quote always sticks with me, he said "superhuman defensive recovery by LeBron James." He's just at another level athletically and physically then everyone, has been since 18 and still is at age 38/39.

I could go on about how I think Bron is closer to MJ than people want to admit. Because no one is better in elimination and winner take all games. I trust Bron over any player ever in a one game scenario, because I know his preparation, dedication and execution will be elite.

For me, it's possible for someone to surpass Bron. I'll know it when I see it...

I'm 34, started watching ball in '99. So I missed Jordan's career except the Wizard years, but as a 00s baby, grew up under the belief that Mike was the greatest player ever...

Also as a 00s baby grew up with Kobe as my favorite player, and all the narratives that he was the closest thing to Mike. I used to collect basketball cards as a child, look up stats and shyt, and I never thought anyone was the greatest player I ever saw. Simultaneously though, I never had the belief that there was no one who could ever surpass Mike, but I never "saw" anyone do anything to challenge the assumption that Mike was the greatest ever. And that was watching the greatness of Kobe and Duncan chiefly. I would say, because I actually watched their careers, I've always been more a fan of those two than Mike--->but I never saw anything from them that made me think "this guy is the greatest player ever"...

The '13 season he ran off with Miami was the first time I felt that with LeBron, he's 10 years in at that point and already with a historic career...

Everything that happened since then, added to it, but I never definitively felt he was the greatest player ever until the '16 Finals. At that point, there was 13 years of work on the board, that's why it's always wild when cats say the narrative of him as GOAT is propped by his longevity; these conversations were in play well before he became a Laker. LeBron isn't considered arguably the GOAT because he played a long time...

We as a culture were having this conversation about him for a long time, and despite the negative nature in here, he earned his way to this conversation thru his play. So by the time the '16 Finals ebded, there was 13 years of work to look back at, and the actual Finals itself......no one has ever showed they could do that. Not on that stage, not with that level of opponent, not with that burden of responsibility as the best player on both sides of the ball, not in that 1-3 position. Its mire than debatable that '16 Finals Bron is the highest level of performance any basketball player ever reached. To call that performance incredible is an understatement, his play down the stretch of that series has no real historic comp...

And thats on top of a historically great 13-year career at that point...

So I think someone can surpass him. I don't think he's the best there ever "will be", because everything evolves. But I'll know it when I see it...

As it is, Mike is the only person I even entertain in the running with Bron. O saw Kobe's entire career and was a huge fan at one point, and still a fan now, always will be. Kobe was the first guy i had as a "favorite player". I saw his whole career from '99 on. He wasn't this...

I learned alot about the history of The Game and greats I never saw, and there's just too many gaping holes in anyone else's resume to entertain as GOAT. Mike's the only guy I think has a legitimate counter--->and again to be clear, I've had Bron over Mike since 2016. Not because of an in season tournament. Not because of a "bubble chip". Not because he's played a long time. I saw everything I needed to see, to put Bron over Mike, in 13 years, 2003 to 2016....

But Mike is the only guy I think is close. None of these other dudes are that close...

The problem with this line of thinking is that you're diminishing what MJ was in order to elevate Bron. MJ made first team defense 9x, and if you study him you'll see that he could do whatever was asked. MJ had to focus on scoring since he could do it the best, but he was an outstanding defender and was actually an excellent passer that could setup assists. The competition argument to me doesn't hold water, simply because the NBA 75 is filled with people who are ringless because of MJ's Bulls teams. Bron is amazing and if he's your GOAT that's fine, but no one has to downplay other legends to prop up MJ. Funny thing is that MJ himself said the argument isn't fair since some never got to play each other.

I agree with Mike and have stated such many times on this board...

I'm not debating defensive awards about Mike. He was not a better defensive player than LeBron James peak for peak....

There is no end, Lebron gonna get replaced by a next goat contender before people recognize him as consensus goat over MJ.

I think as soon as he stops playing his place on the top 5 gonna start slowly slipping down to 4 or 5. This fake debate is kept alive mainly by Lebron and his people. I don’t hear or see MJ concerning himself with this silliness

I think the reverse is gonna happen. It may be awhile before the Next Guy announces himself. People are gonna appreciate Bron more once he hangs it up---->and I hope he retires soon, hopefully after winning this ring in '24...

People will appreciate his work more when he's gone...

 

[JesusFOREVER]

best basketball career? sure, but even then he has a lot of competition there

best to ever pick up a ball?? there's just no way to prove that even if we go by his playing career, let alone his actual skill as an individual, i think he unquestionably is a top 5 career and top 10 talent but thats just my opinion, it's very easy to deny your statement OP

 

[Sunalmighty]

Now write how many healthy seasons each of those played with him.

It's goofy to name Z who was only decent when Bron had no one (might as well have listed Charles Oakley for MJ). Love and Irving only finished 2 healthy seasons each with Bron and only overlapped in one of them. AD overlapped with no one. Wade and Bosh had 3-4 each and were declining by the end.

Scottie alone overlapped with Jordan for 10 seasons, and was good for 9 of those. And ALL of the good seasons that Grant, Rodman, Kukoc, Armstrong, Kerr, Harper etc. played with Jordan, they had Pippen there too.


Now, the part you completely left out. Who were their opponents? Bron faced the Spurs dynasty, the Warriors dynasty, the Thunder Big Three, and took a title off of all of them. Did MJ ever take a title off a single good team that wasn't washed? A single team that the 2012 Thunder wouldn't have swept, let's not even talk about the Spurs or Warriors? If the Bulls didn't exist, who would have won? The 1990s would have been the most forgettable decade since the 3pt-line was introduced. It was a fukking expansion era.

i knew u had something up your sleeve. with damn near everyone on that list, he either won 4 titles or lost 6 title series.

pippens ass wasnt good 9 outta 10 seasons. it took pippen what, a few years to blossom and become a solid player and even then his ass was checking out here and there like he did against detroit in game 7. then factor in the final season when he opted for the surgery and missed the first 35 games of the season and jordan carried they asses to a 24-11 record and practically vanished game 6 of the 98 finals. pippen played with back issues the whole year.

bron faced super teams WITH super teams. i understand the first loss and then when kyrie and love got injured.

 

[DoubleClutch]

For me, it's possible for someone to surpass Bron. I'll know it when I see it...

I'm 34, started watching ball in '99. So I missed Jordan's career except the Wizard years, but as a 00s baby, grew up under the belief that Mike was the greatest player ever...

Also as a 00s baby grew up with Kobe as my favorite player, and all the narratives that he was the closest thing to Mike. I used to collect basketball cards as a child, look up stats and shyt, and I never thought anyone was the greatest player I ever saw. Simultaneously though, I never had the belief that there was no one who could ever surpass Mike, but I never "saw" anyone do anything to challenge the assumption that Mike was the greatest ever. And that was watching the greatness of Kobe and Duncan chiefly. I would say, because I actually watched their careers, I've always been more a fan of those two than Mike--->but I never saw anything from them that made me think "this guy is the greatest player ever"...

The '13 season he ran off with Miami was the first time I felt that with LeBron, he's 10 years in at that point and already with a historic career...

Everything that happened since then, added to it, but I never definitively felt he was the greatest player ever until the '16 Finals. At that point, there was 13 years of work on the board, that's why it's always wild when cats say the narrative of him as GOAT is propped by his longevity; these conversations were in play well before he became a Laker. LeBron isn't considered arguably the GOAT because he played a long time...

We as a culture were having this conversation about him for a long time, and despite the negative nature in here, he earned his way to this conversation thru his play. So by the time the '16 Finals ebded, there was 13 years of work to look back at, and the actual Finals itself......no one has ever showed they could do that. Not on that stage, not with that level of opponent, not with that burden of responsibility as the best player on both sides of the ball, not in that 1-3 position. Its mire than debatable that '16 Finals Bron is the highest level of performance any basketball player ever reached. To call that performance incredible is an understatement, his play down the stretch of that series has no real historic comp...

And thats on top of a historically great 13-year career at that point...

So I think someone can surpass him. I don't think he's the best there ever "will be", because everything evolves. But I'll know it when I see it...

As it is, Mike is the only person I even entertain in the running with Bron. O saw Kobe's entire career and was a huge fan at one point, and still a fan now, always will be. Kobe was the first guy i had as a "favorite player". I saw his whole career from '99 on. He wasn't this...

I learned alot about the history of The Game and greats I never saw, and there's just too many gaping holes in anyone else's resume to entertain as GOAT. Mike's the only guy I think has a legitimate counter--->and again to be clear, I've had Bron over Mike since 2016. Not because of an in season tournament. Not because of a "bubble chip". Not because he's played a long time. I saw everything I needed to see, to put Bron over Mike, in 13 years, 2003 to 2016....

But Mike is the only guy I think is close. None of these other dudes are that close...

I agree with Mike and have stated such many times on this board...

I'm not debating defensive awards about Mike. He was not a better defensive player than LeBron James peak for peak....

I think the reverse is gonna happen. It may be awhile before the Next Guy announces himself. People are gonna appreciate Bron more once he hangs it up---->and I hope he retires soon, hopefully after winning this ring in '24...

People will appreciate his work more when he's gone...

Interesting. You consider someone the goat strictly off accomplishments?

 

[murksiderock]

Interesting. You consider someone the goat strictly off accomplishments?

Come on now, if I really felt that way, wouldn't Mike be who I champion as GOAT?

Just within this thread we've got people listing Mike as DPOY and more All-D teams as reasonings he's better than Mike. There's no player whose accomplishments are used more to frame their GOAT candidacy than Michael Jordan. Come on now...

Largely, though not entirely, accomplishments are earned thru play. So accomplishments are part of The equation...

But if I was an accomplishment-thumper I'd be with these Mike nighas in here...

 

[T.he I.nformant]

All I see is four good years

Spoiler

 

[El Jefe]

Horace Grant was good, but one of the best? That belonged to Derrick Coleman, Barkley, Malone, Rodman, Kemp, etc. he was CLEARLY below them in terms of talent.

You know damn well u not filling out YOUR roster with no damn Stacey king, Bobby Hansen, longley and bill Cartwright. I'd take BJ because he can shoot but he nor Horace never sniffed another all star team after leaving Chicago. They had their moment

them nikkas was SCRUBS my dude and the only reason u know their name is because they played with mike

1998 they got to game 6 where was the rest of the damn team? a top 50 all time great grabbing his damn back.

11 total points off the bench
kukoc only other player in double figures with 15
jordan responsible for more than HALF the points
game winning steal
game winning jumper

You Remedial posting

Bj Armstrong & Horace grant we’re NOT all stars playing with Jordan

Kyrie,ad,wade,Bosh,love all made more individual all star games than both combined before playing with lebron.your relentless dikkriding is comedy.Jordan has more valuable accolades in everything important (championships,mvp,finals mvps,) in less time with less talent that’s a fact

Pippen played with more all stars than jordan ever did & couldnt get out the 2nd round

yeah....YEAH his ALL STAR team mates form an L backwards

That last post says it all

Don't even waste any more time


It's obvious at this point who watched Mike carry Dennis Hopsin , Stacey king , jud fn buechler , Cartwright will pursue , Popeye Jones , and that wizards squad ,, caffey, Simpkins etc bobby hansen


And who is just LESTAT watching 2 form there argument

Anyone who wants to debate the squads GOAT had over his playing career ,

Or making the argument that they were on the same par of talent as lebums squads


And then argue why one maybe has had a longer career is status

 

[Diondon]

Imagine Mike with 30 pt scoring Robins

 

[El Jefe]

Imagine Mike with 30 pt scoring Robins

Now imagine how many rings he would have , and how long he would have played


But bill Cartwright and luc longley are Ant Davis x Chris Bosh status



They didn’t even have cristian woods level of talent and he is lefrauds 10th man

 

[#1 pick]

I don't recall Jordan losing a Finals series.

He didn't, he also never got past the 1st round without Scottie Pippen.

 

[#1 pick]

i knew u had something up your sleeve. with damn near everyone on that list, he either won 4 titles or lost 6 title series.

pippens ass wasnt good 9 outta 10 seasons. it took pippen what, a few years to blossom and become a solid player and even then his ass was checking out here and there like he did against detroit in game 7. then factor in the final season when he opted for the surgery and missed the first 35 games of the season and jordan carried they asses to a 24-11 record and practically vanished game 6 of the 98 finals. pippen played with back issues the whole year.

bron faced super teams WITH super teams. i understand the first loss and then when kyrie and love got injured.

nikka what!

 

[fifth column]

For me, it's possible for someone to surpass Bron. I'll know it when I see it...

I'm 34, started watching ball in '99. So I missed Jordan's career except the Wizard years, but as a 00s baby, grew up under the belief that Mike was the greatest player ever...

Also as a 00s baby grew up with Kobe as my favorite player, and all the narratives that he was the closest thing to Mike. I used to collect basketball cards as a child, look up stats and shyt, and I never thought anyone was the greatest player I ever saw. Simultaneously though, I never had the belief that there was no one who could ever surpass Mike, but I never "saw" anyone do anything to challenge the assumption that Mike was the greatest ever. And that was watching the greatness of Kobe and Duncan chiefly. I would say, because I actually watched their careers, I've always been more a fan of those two than Mike--->but I never saw anything from them that made me think "this guy is the greatest player ever"...

The '13 season he ran off with Miami was the first time I felt that with LeBron, he's 10 years in at that point and already with a historic career...

Everything that happened since then, added to it, but I never definitively felt he was the greatest player ever until the '16 Finals. At that point, there was 13 years of work on the board, that's why it's always wild when cats say the narrative of him as GOAT is propped by his longevity; these conversations were in play well before he became a Laker. LeBron isn't considered arguably the GOAT because he played a long time...

We as a culture were having this conversation about him for a long time, and despite the negative nature in here, he earned his way to this conversation thru his play. So by the time the '16 Finals ebded, there was 13 years of work to look back at, and the actual Finals itself......no one has ever showed they could do that. Not on that stage, not with that level of opponent, not with that burden of responsibility as the best player on both sides of the ball, not in that 1-3 position. Its mire than debatable that '16 Finals Bron is the highest level of performance any basketball player ever reached. To call that performance incredible is an understatement, his play down the stretch of that series has no real historic comp...

And thats on top of a historically great 13-year career at that point...

So I think someone can surpass him. I don't think he's the best there ever "will be", because everything evolves. But I'll know it when I see it...

As it is, Mike is the only person I even entertain in the running with Bron. O saw Kobe's entire career and was a huge fan at one point, and still a fan now, always will be. Kobe was the first guy i had as a "favorite player". I saw his whole career from '99 on. He wasn't this...

I learned alot about the history of The Game and greats I never saw, and there's just too many gaping holes in anyone else's resume to entertain as GOAT. Mike's the only guy I think has a legitimate counter--->and again to be clear, I've had Bron over Mike since 2016. Not because of an in season tournament. Not because of a "bubble chip". Not because he's played a long time. I saw everything I needed to see, to put Bron over Mike, in 13 years, 2003 to 2016....

But Mike is the only guy I think is close. None of these other dudes are that close...

I agree with Mike and have stated such many times on this board...

I'm not debating defensive awards about Mike. He was not a better defensive player than LeBron James peak for peak....

I think the reverse is gonna happen. It may be awhile before the Next Guy announces himself. People are gonna appreciate Bron more once he hangs it up---->and I hope he retires soon, hopefully after winning this ring in '24...

People will appreciate his work more when he's gone...

I disagree, players like Giannis and Jokic got their chips out the mud and are highly respected over the Lebron era super team non competitive style. Even Steph got elevated to fringe top 10 cause of his 2022 chip.

The super team microwave chips that Bron thrive on are merely being tolerated. As soon as a MJ style player comes along with a ultra competitive mindset with the success on the court to match then ya mans Lebron will look funny in the light.

Lebron is the most popular player in the NBA forever and yet his influence is lacking outside of playing on the court. His style of play is not inspiring the youth, nobody buys his shoes like that. Steph has come along as the most influential player of this generation.

The Lebron era will be remembered as the era that almost ruin the competitive nature of the NBA. The players are non competitive, they all want to team up with each other to get easy chips, they rather load manage than play for fans, it’s all about building their brands and podcasting.

The tide is going to shift back to what MJ/Kobe/Duncan/Magic/Bird etc.. made the NBA popular for, Competition.