Are Africans and people of African descent who aren't AA black?

mbewane

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:gucci:





see my last post




I already touched on the difference between that and the modern concept

The Code Noir (The Black Code)

when you consider what was "black" under the french three tier colorline vs the anglo-american two tier one, that alone explains the difference between the two concepts of "black":mjpls:



not the same as the modern concept:mindblown:









history

Breh...:snoop:

This is why I say that some Black Americans are Americans that just happen to be Black, this way some absolutely NEED to feel unique/different. It's like some can't cope with not being "special" and will go at great lenghts to distinguish themselves from others.
 

IllmaticDelta

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Breh...:snoop:

This is why I say that some Black Americans are Americans that just happen to be Black, this way some absolutely NEED to feel unique/different. It's like some can't cope with not being "special" and will go at great lenghts to distinguish themselves from others.

Can you deny any of what I posted? It's laughable to paint the french code noir's usage of "negroes" or "black" as the same as the modern concept when everybody knows that The French three tier colorline is nothing like the binary anglo-american one which is why Creoles of Color in Louisianna went around for ages talking about they wasn't "black" (anglo american two tier system standards) and looked down on their darker "black creole" relatives.
 

mbewane

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Can you deny any of what I posted? It's laughable to paint the french code noir's usage of "negroes" or "black" as the same as the modern concept when everybody knows that The French three tier colorline is nothing like the binary anglo-american one which is why Creoles of Color in Louisianna went around for ages talking about they wasn't "black" (anglo american two tier system standards) and looked down on their darker "black creole" relatives.

No, because you're gonna dismiss it anyway, and keep on saying that some Black people are not Black according to YOUR standards.:yeshrug:
 

mbewane

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Im not gonna dismiss it if you come with solid proof:francis::martin:

Breh, this whole thread is based on what you Black Americans understand as "a concept" and whatnot. There's no "proof" of a concept lol. Any "proof" I give you you will just say "Yeah, but that's not the MODERN concept of Black", just as you did with the Code Noir, just like you did what the other breh posted about Blacks in the UK:francis:. It's useless.

Black is Black, no matter how many American documents you post that obviously reinforce the American point of view, which for whatever reason you believe should apply to the entire world.

Imagine telling Cheick Anta Diop he wasn't Black :gucci::mjlol:
 

BigMan

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Sounds like all of this comes from the fact that Black Americans consider their definition of "Black" to be the one and only true one. Lilke we've said before, the word has been used for centuries, before Black Americans were even called Black, and the language itself (english) is European. I really don't know what it is that makes some of you brehs act like you're some kind of authority on who is Black and who isn't.
it comes from the natural paternalistic attitude we as Americans have:yeshrug:
 

IllmaticDelta

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Breh, this whole thread is based on what you Black Americans understand as "a concept" and whatnot. There's no "proof" of a concept lol.

what do you mean there is no proof of the concept?



People of Color Who Never Felt They Were Black


By Darryl Fears
Washington Post Staff Writer

At her small apartment near the National Cathedral in Northwest Washington, Maria Martins quietly watched as an African American friend
studied a picture of her mother. "Oh," the friend said, surprise in her voice. "Your mother is white."

She turned to Martins. "But you are black."

That came as news to Martins, a Brazilian who, for 30 years before immigrating to the United States, looked in the mirror and saw a morena
-- a woman with caramel-colored skin that is nearly equated with whiteness in Brazil and some other Latin American countries. "I didn't realize
I was black until I came here," she said.


That realization has come to hundreds of thousands of dark-complexioned immigrants to the United States from Brazil, Colombia, Panama
and other Latin nations with sizable populations of African descent. Although most do not identify themselves as black, they are seen that way

as soon as they set foot in North America.



Race matters in Latin America, but it matters differently.



This black presence is a legacy of slavery, just as it is in the United States. But the experience of race in the United States and in these Latin countries is separated by
how slaves and their descendants were treated after slavery was abolished.

In the United States, custom drew a hard line between black and white, and Jim Crow rules kept the races separate. The color line hardened to the point that it was
sanctioned in 1896 by the Supreme Court in its decision in Plessy v. Ferguson, which held that Homer Plessy, a white-complexioned Louisiana shoemaker, could
not ride in the white section of a train because a single ancestor of his was black.

Thus Americans with any discernible African ancestry -- whether they identified themselves as black or not -- were thrust into one category. One consequence is
that dark-complexioned and light-complexioned black people combined to campaign for equal rights, leading to the civil rights movement of the 1960s.


By contrast, the Latin countries with a sizable black presence had more various, and more fluid, experiences of race after slavery.

African slavery is as much a part of Brazil's history as it is of the United States's, said Sheila Walker, a visiting professor of anthropology at Spelman College in
Atlanta and editor of the book "African Roots/American Cultures." Citing the census in Brazil, she said that nation has more people of African descent than any other
in the world besides Nigeria, Africa's most populous country.


Jose Neinstein, a native white Brazilian and executive director of the Brazilian-American Cultural Institute in Washington, boiled down to the simplest terms how his
people are viewed. "In this country," he said, "if you are not quite white, then you are black." But in Brazil, he said, "If you are not quite black, then you are white."




Someone with Sidney Poitier's deep chocolate complexion would be considered white if his hair were straight and he made a living in a profession. That might not
seem so odd, Brazilians say, when you consider that the fair-complexioned actresses Rashida Jones of the television show "Boston Public" and Lena Horne are
identified as black in the United States.


Neinstein remembered talking with a man of Poitier's complexion during a visit to Brazil. "We were discussing ethnicity," Neinstein said, "and I asked him, 'What do
you think about this from your perspective as a black man?' He turned his head to me and said, 'I'm not black,' " Neinstein recalled. " . . . It simply paralyzed me
. I
couldn't ask another question."



Those perceptions come to the United States with the light- and dark-complexioned Latinos who carry them. But here, they collide with two contradictory forces:
North American prejudice and African American pride.

'I've Learned to Be Proud'

Vilson DaSilva, a native of Brazil, is a moreno. Like his wife, Maria Martins, he was born to a black father and a white mother. But their views on race seem to
differ.

During an interview when Martins said she had no idea how they had identified themselves on the 2000 Census form, DaSilva rolled his eyes. "I said we were
black,"
he said.

He is one of a growing number of Latin immigrants of African descent who identify themselves as Afro-Latino, along the same color spectrum as African Americans.

"I've learned to be proud of my color," he said
. For that, he thanked African American friends who stand up for equal rights.



DaSilva agreed that nuances separate African Americans and Afro-Latinos, but he also believes that seeing Latin America through African American eyes gave him a
better perspective. Unfortunately, he said, it also made him angrier and more stressed.

When DaSilva returned to Brazil for a visit, he asked questions he had never asked, and got answers that shocked him.

His mother told him why her father didn't speak to her for 18 years: "It was because she married a black man," he said. One day, DaSilva's own father pulled him
aside to provide his son some advice. " 'You can play around with whoever you want,' " DaSilva recalled his father saying, " 'but marry your own kind.' " So DaSilva
married Martins, the morena of his dreams.

She is dreaming of a world with fewer racial barriers, a world she believes she left in Brazil to be with her husband in Washington.


Martins said her perspective on race was slowly conforming to the American view, but it saddened her. She doesn't understand why she can't call a pretty black girl
a negrita, the way Latin Americans always say it, with affection. She doesn't understand why she has to say she's black, seeming to deny the existence of her
mother.

"Sometimes I say she is black on the outside and white on the inside," DaSilva said of his wife, who threw her head back and laughed.

People of Color Who Never Felt They Were Black

.
.

Dark-Skinned Or Black? How Afro-Brazilians Are Forging A Collective Identity

img_1548-edit_slide-21650edea5164660895764254e741a3cda29e151-s1200.jpg



If you want to get a sense of how complex racial identity is in Brazil, you should meet sisters Francine and Fernanda Gravina. Both have the same mother and father. Francine, 28, is blond with green eyes and white skin. She wouldn't look out of place in Iceland. But Fernanda, 23, has milk chocolate skin with coffee colored eyes and hair. Francine describes herself as white, whereas Fernanda says she's morena, or brown-skinned.

"We'd always get questions like, 'How can you be so dark skinned and she's so fair?'" Fernanda says. In fact, the sisters have German, Italian, African and indigenous ancestry. But in Brazil, Fernanda explains, people describe themselves by color, not race, since nearly everyone here is mixed.

All of that is to say, collecting demographic information in Brazil has been really tricky. The latest census, taken in 2010, found for the first time that Brazil has the most people of African descent outside Africa. No, this doesn't mean that Afro-Brazilian population suddenly, dramatically increased. Rather, the new figures reflect changing attitudes about race and skin color in Brazil.


"There is a totally different system here than in the U.S., where one drop of black blood makes you black independent of appearance," Petruccelli says. In Brazil, it's about how you'd like to classify yourself, and how others see you. The problem, he says, is that Afro-Brazilians have no sense of collective identity, which makes it difficult to address the very real problem of racism and racial inequality in the country.

But lately, that's starting to change, and the black pride movement in Brazil is growing. On a recent morning at the beach in Rio de Janeiro, a march celebrating black women in Brazil started with with dancing and singing. One of the demonstrators, Jurema Werneck, who works at Criolla, an advocacy group for black women, says the goal of the march is to show that Brazil is a black nation, largely populated black and African Brazilians. "We need to fight racism and not to hide it," Werneck says.



She's been participating in the black pride movement for over 15 years. And it seems to be working, she says, because the number of people self identifying as pardo or preto surged in the latest census.

And more importantly, lawmakers are beginning to pay more attention to issues of inequality. Brazil now has an affirmative action program for higher education. Before the program launched, only seven percent of Afro-Brazilians went to college. Now it's about 15 percent, and the numbers are growing.

Werneck says the black pride movement is also lobbying to change the next census in 2020 to include the word black. Pardo and preto, she says, are euphemisms. Afro-Brazilians should take a cue from African-Americans, she says, and broadcast to society that they're black and proud.



and


As the IBGE itself acknowledges, these categories are disputed, and most of the population dislike it and do not identify with them.[49]:1 Most Brazilians see "Indígena" as a cultural rather than racial term, and don't describe as such if they are part of the mainstream Brazilian culture; many Brazilians would prefer to self-describe as "morenos" (used in the sense of "tanned" or "brunettes");[50] some Black and parda people, more identified with the Brazilian Black movement, would prefer to self-describe as "Negro" as an inclusive category containing pardos and pretos;[49]:2 and if allowed to choose any classification, Brazilians will give almost 200 different answers.[49]:4

According to the American scholar Edward Telles,[51] in Brazil there are three different systems related to "racial classification" along the White-Black continuum.[52]:80–81 The first is the Census System, which distinguishes three categories: "branco" (White), "pardo", and "preto" (Black).[52]:81 The second is the popular system that uses many different categories, including the ambiguous term "moreno"[52]:82 ("tanned", "brunette", or "with an olive complexion").[53] The third is the Black movement system that distinguishes only two categories, summing up "pardos" and "pretos" as "negros".[52]: More recently, the term "afrodescendente" has been brought into use.[54]


Race and ethnicity in Brazil - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia









Any "proof" I give you you will just say "Yeah, but that's not the MODERN concept of Black", just as you did with the Code Noir, just like you did what the other breh posted about Blacks in the UK:francis:. It's useless.

because I clearly explained the difference between french code noir, usa "black", negro, blackamoor, burnt face etc...



Black is Black, no matter how many American documents you post that obviously reinforce the American point of view, which for whatever reason you believe should apply to the entire world.

I believe black is black but it's clearly not the case in many places which is why some people are shocked to find out their "black" when they arrive in the USA. Also, it's not that I believe the american POV should apply to the entire world but Im clearly pointing out that it's the afram version of "black" that is used globally today which I just furthered proved with the latin american and brazilian articles above

Imagine telling Cheick Anta Diop he wasn't Black :gucci::mjlol:

of course he's "black" but how about telling this guy that he is "black"

1969-haile-selassie-keystone-pictures-usazumapresscomalamy-live-news-F6JKXD.jpg


or this guy

anwar-sadat-president-of-the-united-arab-republic-left-and-nikolai-B9EMJN.jpg
 

mbewane

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of course he's "black" but how about telling this guy that he is "black"

1969-haile-selassie-keystone-pictures-usazumapresscomalamy-live-news-F6JKXD.jpg


or this guy

anwar-sadat-president-of-the-united-arab-republic-left-and-nikolai-B9EMJN.jpg

I know Ethiopians who are the same complexion as Haile Selassie...and call themselves Black. People from Erithrea. Djibouti. Even Egyptians and Algerians.
Also you brehs don't even agree WITHIN the US of who is Black...back when Obama was prez tons of people were on that "My president is Black" but now some say he isn't because he's mixed/son of African immigrant :mjlol:

And why do you keep repeating that the concept of "Black" used in the world is the Afram one, where have you been? How many non-Anglo publications do you read?
The bolded is the difference between me and you : I would not TELL people who they are and who they are not. Anyone of African descent can consider himself Black, who am I to judge? You're really a special kind of arrogant :russ:
 

IllmaticDelta

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I know Ethiopians who are the same complexion as Haile Selassie...and call themselves Black. People from Erithrea. Djibouti. Even Egyptians and Algerians.

because they've been influenced by western concepts. Horners and North Africans had/have their own racial concepts already prior to knowing western concepts



Also you brehs don't even agree WITHIN the US of who is Black...back when Obama was prez tons of people were on that "My president is Black" but now some say he isn't because he's mixed/son of African immigrant :mjlol:

you're talking "black" as an ethnic term, not a racial one

And why do you keep repeating that the concept of "Black" used in the world is the Afram one, where have you been? How many non-Anglo publications do you read?
The bolded is the difference between me and you : I would not TELL people who they are and who they are not. Anyone of African descent can consider himself Black, who am I to judge? You're really a special kind of arrogant :russ:

I've explained why already:gucci:
 

mbewane

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because they've been influenced by western concepts. Horners and North Africans had/have their own racial concepts already prior to knowing western concepts





you're talking "black" as an ethnic term, not a racial one



I've explained why already:gucci:

So you ask would I call Haile Sailessie Black, I say I KNOW Ethiopians who call themselves Black (and I'm not arrogant to TELL people what they are/are not) and yet still you twist it up going back with "western concepts" that "influenced" them.

Breh :russ:

All right breh, I get it, Aframs have some kind of stamp on who is "Black" and have sole property of the word itself. Congrats:salute:I'll go tell my Pops he isn't Black:mjlol:
 

IllmaticDelta

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So you ask would I call Haile Sailessie Black, I say I KNOW Ethiopians who call themselves Black (and I'm not arrogant to TELL people what they are/are not) and yet still you twist it up going back with "western concepts" that "influenced" them.

Breh :russ:

:gucci: dog, my point was that horner's in their own concepts didn't see themselves as similar to "stereotypical negroes". I said they do now because they've been influenced by western concept of "black" which goes beyond the true negro stereoyype

Haile Selassie/Menelik II : "We are caucasian"

WdB8o2R.jpg





All right breh, I get it, Aframs have some kind of stamp on who is "Black" and have sole property of the word itself. Congrats:salute:I'll go tell my Pops he isn't Black:mjlol:

:comeon:
 

Bonk

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I come with facts:myman:

:russ: I was laughing because you moved the goalpost from the 1930s to one occurrence of the usage of 'black' in 1782 to prove a non-existent point. You're a very guy, son.

Aframs started everything even your current fashion you stole from us and dumped your baggies in the bushes for. :mjlol:
 

Bonk

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nothing wrong over here:pachaha:....see my post :sas1:

Are Africans and people of African descent who aren't AA black?




you do realize there were aframs amongst those british black poor who later become seirre leone creoles?:mjgrin:

Black Loyalists in 18th Century London

The National Archives | Exhibitions & Learning online | Black presence | Work and community

Obviously, I know some of them were slaves on plantations in the US and were born in the US, before moving to London. Olaudah Equaino was a classic example although he lied about being taken from Nigeria. He was actually born in Virginia but he stole the story from another slave that was born in Nigeria and used that to create a new identity for himself.

However, that isn't what the topic is about. It's about the term "black" and its usage. Aframs were called "Negroes" for a long time until the 20th century. The usage of "black" to describe people of African descent has been common in Great Britain from the medieval period, way before slavery started. And in the modern era, the usage started with black poor/britons.
 
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