American-Liberians=/=African-American

badtguy

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Aren’t you one of those Salone creoles?


Yes, and I'm not sure where people are getting the assumption that because you weren't born a slave means you were not a DOS.

Back then that Pan-African back to Africa movement didn't stop in 1820- 1860's it was on going. The same people who had families in Freetown or Monrovia had family still in Maryland, VA, GA SC, West indies, Nova Scotia. People where going back and forth. Africa wasn't "comfortable" for some. America was too racist for others.

Sounds like some people want to change the parameters of DOS.

Your average Americo-Liberian, Creole had more common with blacks in the Diaspora as oppose to indigenous Africans back then
 

IllmaticDelta

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Sounds like some people want to change the parameters of DOS.

Your average Americo-Liberian, Creole had more common with blacks in the Diaspora as oppose to indigenous Africans back then

as I already said, I disagree with @xoxodede that they weren't Aframs. The were just early stage Aframs from the South who were also free people of color/afroeuropeans who BACK THEN did have somewhat of a different status and they came from a different climate in time than the Aframs who lived the reconstruction/jim crow/one drop rule era's.

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Za7F1ig.jpg
 

xoxodede

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as I already said, I disagree with @xoxodede that they weren't Aframs. The were just early stage Aframs from the South who were also free people of color/afroeuropeans who BACK THEN did have somewhat of a different status and they came from a different climate in time than the Aframs who lived the reconstruction/jim crow/one drop rule era's.

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Za7F1ig.jpg

Larry Kroger has been disproved. Let me find the info.
 

xoxodede

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you're talking about the part of them not actually being slaves but direct family members that they freed from slavery or them being actual slaves?

Both. This is a great resource: Free Negro owners of slaves in the United States in 1830, together with Absentee ownership of slaves in the United States in 1830 : Woodson, Carter Godwin, 1875- : Free Download & Streaming : Internet Archive

All and all, it depends on what someone defines as being "black."

Most of those who were labeled "Black" in other locations were "mulatto" and children of slaveholders and "passed" and ran their families plantation in other states/counties. They did not see themselves as Black. Some who were listed as Black - were sometimes White.

Some who were called "Black enslavers" - were those who purchased the freedom of their family members and were therefore listed as slaveowners - even though they were not. Or husbands who purchased their wives and did not emancipate their wives and so their children would be listed as slaves. Some free Blacks also purchased the freedom of non-related individuals to help them reach the north and settle/work in free states.

--------------------

In the rare instances when the ownership of slaves by free Negroes is acknowledged in the history books, justification centers on the claim that black slave masters were simply individuals who purchased the freedom of a spouse or child from a white slaveholder and had been unable to legally manumit them. Although this did indeed happen at times, it is a misrepresentation of the majority of instances, one which is debunked by records of the period on blacks who owned slaves. These include individuals such as Justus Angel and Mistress L. Horry, of Colleton District, South Carolina, who each owned 84 slaves in 1830. In fact, in 1830 a fourth of the free Negro slave masters in South Carolina owned 10 or more slaves; eight owning 30 or more (2)."

Larry Koger researched and compiled a list of all mulatto and Black slaveowners in South Carolina using court, probate and tax records, collateral records, copies of deeds, the federal and local censuses, and written correspondence dating between the early 1800's and 1859. The result of this research is published in his book, Black Slaveowners - Free Black Slave Masters in South Carolina, 1790-1860.

For example, the 1790 thru 1840 Federal census recorded only the free Black head of household and the number of slaves and free persons living in that household. If one relies only on the Federal census records of this period then it does not give an accurate count of free Black slaveowners:

"statistics on the number of free black heads of household owning slaves can be deceiving when compiled from the federal enumerations from 1790 through 1840. The problem stems from the fact that slaves recorded in family dwellings were occasionally held by more than one member of the free household. As a result, the number of slaveowners might have been greater, while the average number of slaves held would have been smaller. Such numerical statistics, then, must be stated with much caution.

"The free black heads of household who were reported with slaves on the 1790 through 1840 censuses should not be referred to as individual slaveowners unless added data has been acquired to suggest ownership of slaves. In several instances, the black heads of household listed as having slaves in their dwellings were not the actual owners, but merely the heads of household, while other free black residents were the legal slaveowners. In 1840, for example, Anthony Weston a free black of Charleston Neck, was reported as the head of a household which included eight slaves; however, the legal owner of the slaves was not Anthony Weston, but his wife, Maria Weston, who recorded six bills of sale for nine slaves between 1833 and 1840. One can see that to infer slaveownership solely from a single census return and without added evidence can be quite misleading."
Black Slaveowners - Free Black Slave Masters in South Carolina, 1790-1860, Larry Koger, pg. 6.


Koger has listed each of the 453 Black and mulatto slaveowners by name and location in his book's appendix. According to his records there were only 2 Black slaveowners, not 8 as mentioned in the article, in South Carolina who owned more than 30 slaves -- Lydia Burris of Ward 2 in Charleston who owned 41 slaves, and John Garden of St Paul's Parish who owned 52 slaves. Likewise, there were 92 Black slaveowners who owned 10 or more slaves which is 20.3% or just slightly lower than the article's author gives.

The cited example of Justus Angel who owned 84 slaves is addressed by Koger in his endnotes who has determined that many of the Black and mulatto slaveowners were in fact 100% White:

" Woodson, 'Free Negr0 Owners of Slaves', pp. 30-31 (The following persons were reported to be free black slaveholders by Carter G. Woodson but were actually white absentee slaveowners: 1. Frances C. Dalton was a native of England and the wife of Dr. James Dalton. When Mrs. Dalton died in 1846, she was buried in the graveyard of St. Michael's Church, which was a segregated cemetery. — Clara Jervey, ed., Inscriptions of the Tablets and Gravestones in St. Michael's Church and Church yard Charleston, S.C. (Columbia: State Company, 1906), p. 85. 2. Mistress Lucretia Horry of St. Bartholomews Parish was recorded as white on the 1820 census and listed as a white resident of Charleston City by the local directory. -Fourth Census of the United States, 1820: Schedule I, St. Bartholomews Parish, Colleton County, South Carolina, p. 48; Porcher, Directory for 1831, p. 82. 3. Henry Johnson was listed as a white man in the census of 1810. — Third Census of the United States, 1810: Schedule 1, St. Paul's Parish, Colleton County, South Carolina, p. 606. 4. John D. Legare was reported to be a white citizen by the city directory. —Supplement of Charleston Directory for 1836 (Charleston: Dowling, 1836), p. 52. 5. Ephraim Mikell Seabrook was of English ancestry according to Mabel L. Webber. —Mabel L. Webber, "The Early Generations of the Seabrook Family," South Carolina Historical & Genealogical Magazine vol. 17 (January 1916), pp. 63, 67. The other white slaveowners classified as free persons of color were Justine Angel, Martha Ann Mathews, Margaret Stock, Charles Tennent, Nicholas Venning, Robert Yenning, and Daniel J. Warring."
Ibid., pg. 237

Another excerpt from the article:
"William Ellison died December 5, 1861. His will stated that his estate should pass into the joint hands of his free daughter and his two surviving sons. He bequeathed $500 to the slave daughter he had sold."

The slave daughter of William Ellison was named Maria whom he had purchased from David Gilliens. The author of this article is misleading. Ellison did not sell Maria, but to protect her freedom he entered into what was called a "deed of trust" between he and a trusted close White friend, William McCreighton, for the sum of one dollar.

Prior to 1820, in South Carolina, state law had allowed slaveowners to manumit their slaves as long as they had a trade and could support themselves. As a result, the free Black population in South Carolina increased between 1800 and 1820 by nearly 50% and this large influx of manumitted slaves alarmed the state legislators who felt they were a threat to the safety of the White population resulting in passage of the Act of 1820. The Act revoked private manumissions beginning in 1820, and required the slaveowner to petition the state legislature for approval to emancipate a slave. Both houses of the legislature would have to agree to grant a certificate of emancipation before the slave could be freed. Between 1822 -- following the Denmark Vessey plot -- and 1838, there were only 15 petitions approved in South Carolina by the legislature and every one was based on a slave having performed a heroic deed for a White.

Slaveowners who were prevented from manumitting a slave due to the Act but wanted to give them de facto freedom, turned to deeds of trust which transferred the title of a slave to a White trustee with stipulations that the slave could enjoy the freedoms of a freedman and could not be seized or sold for debts of the current or past owner. Many deeds included a provision that the slave could not be removed to another city or slave state unless the slave consented. Some of these deed-trusted slaves were listed as free Blacks during the Federal Census.
 

Bawon Samedi

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Both. This is a great resource: Free Negro owners of slaves in the United States in 1830, together with Absentee ownership of slaves in the United States in 1830 : Woodson, Carter Godwin, 1875- : Free Download & Streaming : Internet Archive

All and all, it depends on what someone defines as being "black."

Most of those who were labeled "Black" in other locations were "mulatto" and children of slaveholders and "passed" and ran their families plantation in other states/counties. They did not see themselves as Black. Some who were listed as Black - were sometimes White.

Some who were called "Black enslavers" - were those who purchased the freedom of their family members and were therefore listed as slaveowners - even though they were not. Or husbands who purchased their wives and did not emancipate their wives and so their children would be listed as slaves. Some free Blacks also purchased the freedom of non-related individuals to help them reach the north and settle/work in free states.

--------------------

In the rare instances when the ownership of slaves by free Negroes is acknowledged in the history books, justification centers on the claim that black slave masters were simply individuals who purchased the freedom of a spouse or child from a white slaveholder and had been unable to legally manumit them. Although this did indeed happen at times, it is a misrepresentation of the majority of instances, one which is debunked by records of the period on blacks who owned slaves. These include individuals such as Justus Angel and Mistress L. Horry, of Colleton District, South Carolina, who each owned 84 slaves in 1830. In fact, in 1830 a fourth of the free Negro slave masters in South Carolina owned 10 or more slaves; eight owning 30 or more (2)."

Larry Koger researched and compiled a list of all mulatto and Black slaveowners in South Carolina using court, probate and tax records, collateral records, copies of deeds, the federal and local censuses, and written correspondence dating between the early 1800's and 1859. The result of this research is published in his book, Black Slaveowners - Free Black Slave Masters in South Carolina, 1790-1860.

For example, the 1790 thru 1840 Federal census recorded only the free Black head of household and the number of slaves and free persons living in that household. If one relies only on the Federal census records of this period then it does not give an accurate count of free Black slaveowners:

"statistics on the number of free black heads of household owning slaves can be deceiving when compiled from the federal enumerations from 1790 through 1840. The problem stems from the fact that slaves recorded in family dwellings were occasionally held by more than one member of the free household. As a result, the number of slaveowners might have been greater, while the average number of slaves held would have been smaller. Such numerical statistics, then, must be stated with much caution.

"The free black heads of household who were reported with slaves on the 1790 through 1840 censuses should not be referred to as individual slaveowners unless added data has been acquired to suggest ownership of slaves. In several instances, the black heads of household listed as having slaves in their dwellings were not the actual owners, but merely the heads of household, while other free black residents were the legal slaveowners. In 1840, for example, Anthony Weston a free black of Charleston Neck, was reported as the head of a household which included eight slaves; however, the legal owner of the slaves was not Anthony Weston, but his wife, Maria Weston, who recorded six bills of sale for nine slaves between 1833 and 1840. One can see that to infer slaveownership solely from a single census return and without added evidence can be quite misleading."
Black Slaveowners - Free Black Slave Masters in South Carolina, 1790-1860, Larry Koger, pg. 6.


Koger has listed each of the 453 Black and mulatto slaveowners by name and location in his book's appendix. According to his records there were only 2 Black slaveowners, not 8 as mentioned in the article, in South Carolina who owned more than 30 slaves -- Lydia Burris of Ward 2 in Charleston who owned 41 slaves, and John Garden of St Paul's Parish who owned 52 slaves. Likewise, there were 92 Black slaveowners who owned 10 or more slaves which is 20.3% or just slightly lower than the article's author gives.

The cited example of Justus Angel who owned 84 slaves is addressed by Koger in his endnotes who has determined that many of the Black and mulatto slaveowners were in fact 100% White:

" Woodson, 'Free Negr0 Owners of Slaves', pp. 30-31 (The following persons were reported to be free black slaveholders by Carter G. Woodson but were actually white absentee slaveowners: 1. Frances C. Dalton was a native of England and the wife of Dr. James Dalton. When Mrs. Dalton died in 1846, she was buried in the graveyard of St. Michael's Church, which was a segregated cemetery. — Clara Jervey, ed., Inscriptions of the Tablets and Gravestones in St. Michael's Church and Church yard Charleston, S.C. (Columbia: State Company, 1906), p. 85. 2. Mistress Lucretia Horry of St. Bartholomews Parish was recorded as white on the 1820 census and listed as a white resident of Charleston City by the local directory. -Fourth Census of the United States, 1820: Schedule I, St. Bartholomews Parish, Colleton County, South Carolina, p. 48; Porcher, Directory for 1831, p. 82. 3. Henry Johnson was listed as a white man in the census of 1810. — Third Census of the United States, 1810: Schedule 1, St. Paul's Parish, Colleton County, South Carolina, p. 606. 4. John D. Legare was reported to be a white citizen by the city directory. —Supplement of Charleston Directory for 1836 (Charleston: Dowling, 1836), p. 52. 5. Ephraim Mikell Seabrook was of English ancestry according to Mabel L. Webber. —Mabel L. Webber, "The Early Generations of the Seabrook Family," South Carolina Historical & Genealogical Magazine vol. 17 (January 1916), pp. 63, 67. The other white slaveowners classified as free persons of color were Justine Angel, Martha Ann Mathews, Margaret Stock, Charles Tennent, Nicholas Venning, Robert Yenning, and Daniel J. Warring."
Ibid., pg. 237

Another excerpt from the article:
"William Ellison died December 5, 1861. His will stated that his estate should pass into the joint hands of his free daughter and his two surviving sons. He bequeathed $500 to the slave daughter he had sold."

The slave daughter of William Ellison was named Maria whom he had purchased from David Gilliens. The author of this article is misleading. Ellison did not sell Maria, but to protect her freedom he entered into what was called a "deed of trust" between he and a trusted close White friend, William McCreighton, for the sum of one dollar.

Prior to 1820, in South Carolina, state law had allowed slaveowners to manumit their slaves as long as they had a trade and could support themselves. As a result, the free Black population in South Carolina increased between 1800 and 1820 by nearly 50% and this large influx of manumitted slaves alarmed the state legislators who felt they were a threat to the safety of the White population resulting in passage of the Act of 1820. The Act revoked private manumissions beginning in 1820, and required the slaveowner to petition the state legislature for approval to emancipate a slave. Both houses of the legislature would have to agree to grant a certificate of emancipation before the slave could be freed. Between 1822 -- following the Denmark Vessey plot -- and 1838, there were only 15 petitions approved in South Carolina by the legislature and every one was based on a slave having performed a heroic deed for a White.

Slaveowners who were prevented from manumitting a slave due to the Act but wanted to give them de facto freedom, turned to deeds of trust which transferred the title of a slave to a White trustee with stipulations that the slave could enjoy the freedoms of a freedman and could not be seized or sold for debts of the current or past owner. Many deeds included a provision that the slave could not be removed to another city or slave state unless the slave consented. Some of these deed-trusted slaves were listed as free Blacks during the Federal Census.


Wish I can rep.
 

IllmaticDelta

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I figured



Yup


All and all, it depends on what someone defines as being "black."

Most of those who were labeled "Black" in other locations were "mulatto" and children of slaveholders and "passed" and ran their families plantation in other states/counties. They did not see themselves as Black. Some who were listed as Black - were sometimes White.

yes but so this doesn't become a semantics game, I'll just refer to them as afroeuropeans, since that's what they were

Some who were called "Black enslavers" - were those who purchased the freedom of their family members and were therefore listed as slaveowners - even though they were not. Or husbands who purchased their wives and did not emancipate their wives and so their children would be listed as slaves. Some free Blacks also purchased the freedom of non-related individuals to help them reach the north and settle/work in free states.

.


Yup....this is mainly true

It is reasonable to assume that the 42 percent of the free black slave owners who owned just one slave probably owned a family member to protect that person, as did many of the other black slave owners who owned only slightly larger numbers of slaves. As Woodson put it in 1924's Free Negro Owners of Slaves in the United States in 1830, "The census records show that the majority of the Negro owners of slaves were such from the point of view of philanthropy. In many instances the husband purchased the wife or vice versa … Slaves of Negroes were in some cases the children of a free father who had purchased his wife. If he did not thereafter emancipate the mother, as so many such husbands failed to do, his own children were born his slaves and were thus reported to the numerators."



Moreover, Woodson explains, "Benevolent Negroes often purchased slaves to make their lot easier by granting them their freedom for a nominal sum, or by permitting them to work it out on liberal terms." In other words, these black slave-owners, the clear majority, cleverly used the system of slavery to protect their loved ones. That's the good news.

....but

But not all did, and that is the bad news. Halliburton concludes, after examining the evidence, that "it would be a serious mistake to automatically assume that free blacks owned their spouse or children only for benevolent purposes." Woodson himself notes that a "small number of slaves, however, does not always signify benevolence on the part of the owner." And John Hope Franklin notes that in North Carolina, "Without doubt, there were those who possessed slaves for the purpose of advancing their [own] well-being … these Negro slaveholders were more interested in making their farms or carpenter-shops 'pay' than they were in treating their slaves humanely." For these black slaveholders, he concludes, "there was some effort to conform to the pattern established by the dominant slaveholding group within the State in the effort to elevate themselves to a position of respect and privilege." In other words, most black slave owners probably owned family members to protect them, but far too many turned to slavery to exploit the labor of other black people for profit.

https://www.theroot.com/did-black-people-own-slaves-1790895436
 

xoxodede

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Nothing posted still does not counter the OP. Not only did they leave early but the AA ethnicity didn't even form at that time.

And we're not just talking about slavery.

Exactly. They could be from America and/or were at one time enslaved or had ancestors enslaved.

But, those who went to Liberia were NOT the ancestors of the 3.9+Million our of 4Million Black people that were enslaved in the US --- who did not gain their freedom until 1865.

Which it has already been established that the bulk and majority of those who went to Liberia went during 1830-1850. And were another class and racial classification from our ancestors who were enslaved.
 

xoxodede

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I figured




Yup




yes but so this doesn't become a semantics game, I'll just refer to them as afroeuropeans, since that's what they were




Yup....this is mainly true



....but



https://www.theroot.com/did-black-people-own-slaves-1790895436

You don't wanna quote "The Root" and HLG. He's so lost... The number of real Black "negro" slaveowners are so low. And it's so many factors those who were did so.

The motives that guided black slaveowners were many and complex. Most of them appear to have “owned” slaves for the benevolent purpose of protecting family members from a society that habitually regarded free black people with deep suspicion. But a significant minority did so for the same reasons that motivated white slaveowners: commercial profit and prestige. Slaveowning on the part of this latter group was a strategy for assimilation in a mistrustful and potentially explosive social atmosphere. Not only were black slaveowners sometimes reviled by other blacks, but they were equally feared by the white middle class as potential usurpers. Whatever our stereotype of the American master in the antebellum era, neither the commercial nor the humanitarian black slaveowner easily fits it.

A crucial prerequisite for slaveowning was, of course, freedom. At the time of the 1830 census, nearly one out of eight blacks in the United States was a “free person of color,” whether by birthright, manumission, or the purchase of his or her freedom. Whatever their improved legal status, free people of color still experienced many of the same difficulties that slaves did. The laws differed according to period and region, but free blacks of the antebellum era were generally forbidden the right to vote, to bear arms, and to testify against whites in a court of law. They were often denied credit, consigned to segregated churches, prevented from establishing permanent residences, and even denied licenses to sell liquor. They often lived side by side with slaves—on occasion marrying them—and their white neighbors tended to see them as a potentially disruptive force. Most free people of color were poor. They lived, as the historian John Hope Franklin has put it, in a state of “quasi-freedom.”

Most often black slaveowners were men who had bought their own family members. For instance, Mosby Shepherd, manumitted by the Virginia legislature for giving information concerning the Gabriel insurrection of 1800, bought his own son with the express purpose of later freeing him. Owning blood relatives could be a convenient legal fiction to protect them from the hostility that free blacks attracted. Often it was a way to evade stringent laws requiring newly freed slaves to leave the state within a certain period. Sometimes free blacks married slaves and raised families. If the slave in such a union was owned by a third party and “threatened” with freedom, the spouse could purchase him or her. Some laws even made it easier for blacks to own family members than to manumit them. Selling Poor Steven | AMERICAN HERITAGE
 

IllmaticDelta

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Free people of color and mulattos should be included in the definitions of AAs but AAs are not monolithic in experiences and we can make distinctions.

this 100%....to me it's faulty logic to try to separate free people color from the directly enslaved because both were actually tied together. Now, we can acknowledge that they had different experiences because those are FACTS but to say they weren't connected even IN THAT TIME is false. Aframs of today are combinations former slave lineages intertwined with free people of color lineages.
 

xoxodede

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this 100%....to me it's faulty logic to try to separate free people color from the directly enslaved because both were actually tied together. Now, we can acknowledge that they had different experiences because those are FACTS but to say they weren't connected even IN THAT TIME is false. Aframs of today are combinations former slave lineages intertwined with free people of color lineages.

Ok - we all from Africa. Does that make us African? Shared lineages and being connected through them doesn't mean the same.

Most AA/DOS did/do not have free people of color in their tree or had any of their ancestors become free. They were enslaved from day one and stayed that way till 1865.
 

Apollo Creed

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this 100%....to me it's faulty logic to try to separate free people color from the directly enslaved because both were actually tied together. Now, we can acknowledge that they had different experiences because those are FACTS but to say they weren't connected even IN THAT TIME is false. Aframs of today are combinations former slave lineages intertwined with free people of color lineages.

The distinction can still be made today when it comes to AAs and even blacks in other nations being of the “same ethnic group” but having different experiences even if all those experiences have the same root cause of systematic white supremacy.

The funny thing is for a posters who quote Yvette Carnell so much this is one of the core things she and many others address when it comes to the experiences of say P Diddy and Oprah being vastly different than the average person even though they are both AA. Because of this you can’t live viciously through other people because they are part of your ethnic group (i.e because Oprah is a billionaire that means AAs are doing good in america) AND you cannot make the assumption that they understand your circumstances even though both of you are victims of systematic white supremacy.

We have to understand that there is a disconnect often times when we look at the black experience in america once we introduce the filter of class. A black upper middle class person may feel systematic white supremacy in their eyes is being passed on a promotion and a lesser qualified white person gets it. But that same person will look at a kid from an imporvershied community and say “man them nikkas dont wanna learn!” And COMPLETELY ignore the 500 years of events that created the condition for that kid.
 
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