Always thought this came from Africa or Caribbean ...actually it was New Orleans

[IllmaticDelta]

Matta fact. Isn't Dizzy Gillespie, an Afr'Am, the father of Afro-Cuban Jazz, the pioneering latin jazz genre.

yeah, dizzy was afram. Latin Jazz started with Mario Bauza/machito (afro-cuban) with Afram swing jazz arrangers which came to be known as Mambo and then later, Salsa



then dizzy combined the afro-cuban sound with the more bebop form of jazz which came to be called cubop

 

[get these nets]

@Get These Nets You're Haitian, still a "caribbean immigrant" or the child of them.
This is not a caribbean immigrant culture, it's AA culture that caribbean immigrants latched on to and now lie about founding.
It's not a 3 part cultural mix and there are no Puerto Rican or Jamaican elements in early hip hop. They were just there.
Be proud you're "from" NY...and leave it at that.

Well, I actually wrote that it's a 4 part cultural mix. The successive waves of the Great Migration added different elements to the culture of New York in general, but to music specifically. Their cultures were slightly different from the African Americans who were already in NYC. I hope you're not learning for the first time...and weren't lumping AA culture(s) in 1970s NYC all together.
You wrote "no 3 part mix" , so apparently you were. If you missed that part of it, not sure that you're as knowledgeable about this topic as you think you are.
You're trying to make the point that these groups of people could be living around each other, and in NYC on top of each other for decades ( that the Puerto Rican population of NYC in 1960 was over 55% of the total Black population) and that there are no Jamaican or Latin influences in what formed hip hop?
It doesn't add up.

 

[Indiglow Meta (R$G)]

Well, I actually wrote that it's a 4 part cultural mix. The successive waves of the Great Migration added different elements to the culture of New York in general, but to music specifically. Their cultures were slightly different from the African Americans who were already in NYC. I hope you're not learning for the first time...and weren't lumping AA culture(s) in 1970s NYC all together.
You wrote "no 3 part mix" , so apparently you were. If you missed that part of it, not sure that you're as knowledgeable about this topic as you think you are.
You're trying to make the point that these groups of people could be living around each other, and in NYC on top of each other for decades ( that the Puerto Rican population of NYC in 1960 was over 55% of the total Black population) and that there are no Jamaican or Latin influences in what formed hip hop?
It doesn't add up.

There were NONE, PERIOD.
Even the original Puerto Rican and Jamaican (not jamaicans) JAMAICAN participant (who said he shed his accent and mannerisms to fit in) Specifically said "it was a black thing"
The jamaican guy said "it was an american thing"
stop trying to keep that lie narrative going because it doesn't match how you feel. I thought it was true, too...Now I know it isn't and I'm HAPPY TO REMIND YOU AGAIN AND AGAIN.
I tell jamaicans to their FACE when they bring up Herc. I'll keep on reiterating the point. I'm not trying to claim Kompas...and IT CAME FROM JAZZ.

YOU WANNA PARTY?

 

[get these nets]

NYC was the place where you had direct afram and puerto rican/cuban interchange but that was on THEIR music, not aframs music. The influence was Aframs influencing them with direct contact in NYC more than it was the other way around.

Latin jazz (mambo and later, salsa) is THEIR music that started when they took afram big band jazz and mixed it with afro-cuban sounds

Latin Boogaloo was the music THEY listened to after they mixed Cuban sounds with Afram ones.

.....basically, latins acquired whole new genres because of the interaction-interplay, not the other way around.



there was, just not on aframs but on latins

Spoiler

You posted later in this thread that jazz icon Dizzy Gillespie added elements of latin jazz into his music. By posting that, are you walking back this earlier post about how the exchange was always one way? If Dizz did it, I'm certain that lesser talents followed his lead and did it as well.

The cultural exchange was 99% of the time AA influencing the globe, but I think people are reluctant to concede that 1% where it's documented to have swung the other way.


For example
Blues legend Jelly Roll Morton

Spoiler

 

[Supper]

People give DJ's like Herc credit for identifying and extending the "breaks" of songs so that people could dance to the best part of the songs.

Afr'Am disco djs were doing that before herc.

@IllmaticDelta

AllHipHop.com: No pun intended, but
would you say that is when the break happens? Because from what I’ve read and
speaking to people names like DJ Jones and Hollywood get mentioned as “precursors”
but that it was Herc, Bambaataa and Flash that were heavy into the breakbeats.

Amen-Ra: Well they got it from them!

 

[Indiglow Meta (R$G)]

You posted later in this thread that jazz icon Dizzy Gillespie added elements of latin jazz into his music. By posting that, are you walking back this earlier post about how the exchange was always one way? If Dizz did it, I'm certain that lesser talents followed his lead and did it as well.

The cultural exchange was 99% of the time AA influencing the globe, but I think people are reluctant to concede that 1% where it's documented to have swung the other way.


For example
Blues legend Jelly Roll Morton

Spoiler

It didn't, and NYC is a case where it didn't.
If herc and the puerto rican pioneers are saying "it's african american"
Why are you so resistant? You said you don't have a dog in the fight but you do.
You're trying to overplay the melting pot nature of NYC with a weird timeline and "bbbbut it's a ratio of .6 to blah blah, IT'S LOGICALLY IMPOSSIBLE"
Listen, they're still our sons culturally...they just put a Rican flag and "spanish twist" on what we do...They even bite other islanders and "whiten" the music.
EL GENERAL was a Dark Skinned Panamanian.
Ricans are the Ethnic Drakes of music.
Oh, and there really is no "spanish tinge"
It's called Hambone or Pattin Juba, that's the same rhythm. Whites conflated it and Jellyroll was confused. Read his Bio, nothing latin about it other than the New Orleans Creole culture.

 

[get these nets]

as time went on after the truce, you had more mixed (black and latin) gangs but make no mistake, there was an obvious divide and the early latin's in hiphop make it clear, they were outsiders to hiphop (park jams, music, bboys etc...and not founders. Read below

You've not read me use the term "Latin founders of hip hop". What I've said in this thread and others is that the culture that formed as hip hop definitely has Afro latino elements. b-boying DEFINITELY, graffiti DEFINITELY....Djing sure, emceeing..that's the one I'm least sure about.

The ethnic tensions? That was real. Latinos being late to b-boying. That's real....Crazy Legs has said this on camera.

I posted what I think the numbers were for Blacks(total) and Puerto Ricans in NYC in 1960. When you figure that the Black total is made up of AAs and Caribbean people, you see how large the Rican population relative to African Americans was. Ricans were in their enclaves for a while, but in some spots sooner than later...PRs and AAs were running together, going to school together, cliquing up in gangs, inter marrying,etc. They were occupying the same areas with comparable populations.
Never will those things happen without cultural exchange .


When a large number of Caribbean migrant workers settled in Panama after working on the canal, them bringing their musical influences added different elements to the music that came out of Panama.....as an example.

 

[Supper]

For example
Blues legend Jelly Roll Morton

Spoiler

The cuban/jazz myth is basically the jamaican/hip hop myth of a by gone era.

Even the Cuban influences on African-American music are grossly overstated largely by dishonest Cuban nationalist. The so called "Habanera" otherwise known as the "Spanish Tinge" and the "Clave" motifs which aren't even that prominent in Jazz & RnB as compared to Swing & Backbeat rhythms originate in native African-American folk dances down on the plantations of the US south such as the Juba dance & Ring Shouts and from there were transferred into the Charleston dance and Bo-Diddley's hit single which popularized the "clave" rhythm in America which are shown to have no connections to Cuba.

Mississippi hill country fife and drum music contains heavy cross rhythms. Again, nothing to do with cuba.

 

[Samori Toure]

You posted later in this thread that jazz icon Dizzy Gillespie added elements of latin jazz into his music. By posting that, are you walking back this earlier post about how the exchange was always one way? If Dizz did it, I'm certain that lesser talents followed his lead and did it as well.

The cultural exchange was 99% of the time AA influencing the globe, but I think people are reluctant to concede that 1% where it's documented to have swung the other way.


For example
Blues legend Jelly Roll Morton

Spoiler

In all honesty what we call Jazz is really the Blues. Jazz arose out of the Delta version of the Blues. In fact the Delta Blues and Jazz are from the same region, which is Mississippi and Louisiana. Case in point about Jazz is that Billie Holiday, who is one of the best Jazz singers of all time; was really singing the Blues:

With that said it there is no such thing as Latin Jazz. They are actually playing the Blues, with a Latin bent to it.

 

[get these nets]

Afr'Am disco djs were doing that before herc.

@IllmaticDelta

wait,you're the guy who wrote that "Dizzy Gillespie invented latin jazz" a few post up, correct?
and got corrected by Illmatic?
just checking.

You don't have to run to post freshly googled stuff here without confirming it......Illmatic and I had this debate before where he posted DJ Hollywood himself calling BS on who gets credit for what. We each posted vids from pioneers saying conflicting stories. You can do a search and read the exchanges between us.


Sorry that your "gotcha" is old news.

 

[get these nets]

The cuban/jazz myth is basically the jamaican/hip hop myth of a by gone era.



Mississippi hill country fife and drum music contains heavy cross rhythms. Again, nothing to do with cuba.

instead of the University of Google

try reading this book that I posted in the Root section last month

Black Music History primer

from AFRICAN AMERICAN music scholar Samuel Floyd

 

[Supper]

In all honesty what we call Jazz is really the Blues. Jazz arose out of the Delta version of the Blues. In fact the Delta Blues and Jazz are from the same region, which is Mississippi and Louisiana. Case in point about Jazz is that Billie Holiday, who is one of the best Jazz singers of all time; was really singing the Blues:

Yep, there's a lot of shyt that's could be considered the blues. Folk ragtime(which influenced NO jazz) and Boogie Woogie both are played on 12 bar and have flattened blue notes(to imply the bend).

In fact Boogie Woogie overlaps most definitions of jazz as well because of the independent improvisation of the right hand. In fact boogie basslines were later brought from houston texas BW by the Thomas family to NO the jazz scene.

 

[Indiglow Meta (R$G)]

instead of the University of Google

try reading this book that I posted in the Root section last month

Black Music History primer

from AFRICAN AMERICAN music scholar Samuel Floyd

instead of the University of Google

try reading this book that I posted in the Root section last month

Black Music History primer

from AFRICAN AMERICAN music scholar Samuel Floyd

SHE WROTE IT TOO...
Melanie Zeck is Managing Editor of the Black Music Research Journal, the peer-reviewed journal of the Center for Black Music Research (CBMR). Trained as a music librarian and historian, she joined the CBMR in 2005 to provide fact-finding and fact-checking services for the Center’s staff and constituents. In this capacity, she has collaborated with and provided extensive informational support for researchers worldwide on a broad range of topics in black music research and history. She has also been consulted by American and European conductors, instrumentalists, vocalists in the discovery and programming of pieces by composers of African descent for public concerts and recitals.

In 2014, Zeck established a post-baccalaureate internship program through which recent graduates from the United States and Europe engage with the CBMR’s archival materials in order to produce original research. As part of the program, she hosts informational sessions and mini-classes on a wide variety of topics that are integral to black music research, including: issues in African languages and transcription, database research strategies, and trans-Atlantic history (pre-1900), among others. Each project will be described on the CBMR’s new online platform: CrossTalk.

Zeck and CBMR founder, Samuel A. Floyd Jr., recently finished their book-length manuscript on black music, which is currently in production with Oxford University Press (OUP). Their second book, with Rosita Sands, is an edited, multi-volume anthology of eighty-two source readings on black music history and is under contract with OUP. Zeck has published several bibliographies and smaller writings on black music in printed and online formats, including in the Encyclopedia of African American Music (ABC-CLIO 2011), in CBMR Digest, and on the Oxford University Press’s OUPBlog.




Another WHITE anthropologist conflating AA and other people

 

[Indiglow Meta (R$G)]

wait,you're the guy who wrote that "Dizzy Gillespie invented latin jazz" a few post up, correct?
and got corrected by Illmatic?
just checking.

You don't have to run to post freshly googled stuff here without confirming it......Illmatic and I had this debate before where he posted DJ Hollywood himself calling BS on who gets credit for what. We each posted vids from pioneers saying conflicting stories. You can do a search and read the exchanges between us.


Sorry that your "gotcha" is old news.

You're fighting to prove a falsehood that's being dismantled before your eyes, that's why you're reaching and introducing cultural biters and outliers to the mix who are continually influenced by us TO THIS DAY.

 

[Supper]

wait,you're the guy who wrote that "Dizzy Gillespie invented latin jazz" a few post up, correct?
and got corrected by Illmatic?
just checking.

Rich coming from a guy using faulty to logic to extrapolate that somehow west indians and puerto ricans must've had SOME influence on AA music in NYC because "hey they were there....and cultural exchanges...and whatnot" without providing a shred of credible evidence whatsoever, and has been getting corrected up and down this thread since his first post.

That's you, right? Just checking.

DJ Hollywood himself calling BS on who gets credit for what.

Well, go ahead and link the post to it. Don't just using pretty underline font to badazzle your otherwise empty statements.