Always thought this came from Africa or Caribbean ...actually it was New Orleans

[get these nets]

what Im saying is, how can there be latino influences when they had no influence on afams? As I showed you, the interplay left i,pact on THEIR music/culture, not afram music/culture





bboys origins are afram dance. Latinos were not doing that dance(bboying) until it was almost the 1980's





graffiti started and spread into NYC from black philadelphians

na













of course the ricans and blacks were largley in the same hoods but they had their own cultures which meant they stayed within their own group(s) for the most part. Crazy Legs has an interview where he talks about this but right now I can't find it.

Thanks
How accurate is that piece about graff when it completely skips over mentioning wartime graffiti? In most of the stuff I read about graff, they mentioned World War 2 wartime markings and tags by American soldiers. "killroy was here" was the o.g. tag allegedly.

As Caz pointed about about b-boying/breakdance.....I think that once they started doing it, that P .R.s added cultural elements to graff. I think there's a tradition of street murals there.

(Will add more later)

what jelly called the spanish tinge was a misnomer because he associated it with "cuban-latin" (african in origin) clave/habanera which is something aleady in afram music such as mississipi fife and drum, hambone and sea islands ring shout. The same clave/habanera feel he called the spanish tinge is the feel of gullah dancing

the charleston dance

and

Thanks. That's one way to look at it. The other more direct way to view Morton's use of the term "Spanish tinge" is to look at the history of the city he was born in, New Orleans. City with both Spanish and French colonial history, migration patterns from former colonies of those Euro countries..including Cuba. New Orleans has a history of multiple cultures exchanging & blending .It's been one of the most fertile and influential places musically because of that . I'm not discounting what you've written and posted here but I think an objective person could see how Morton wasn't using a misnomer at all and that by Spanish tinge, he was directly acknowledging the latin musical influences in the city he's from.

(page 116, first paragraph last sentence)One of the pages that you posted noted that certain musical style was "ubiquitous in places where the dominant African culture was Yoruba or Kongo...including Cuba and Haiti" Again, with it's history New Orleans had waves of both enslaved Africans and free Africans from both Cuba and Haiti entering the city at different points.. N.O.'s history(and Louisiana's) is dramatically different from the rest of the country which is why it has such a rich musical tradition.

Again, I cannot discount the fact that African cultural traditions (from the same ethnic groups)carried over in other parts of the United States. I'm just saying that it's more likely that Morton picked up that element in New Orleans. He didn't misname it at all.....he got it from the Afro-Cuban cultural exchange in Louisiana.

 

[get these nets]

@IllmaticDelta
Going through and trying to cover every point that you've made step by step .keep checking this thread. Again, thanks

About what Grandmaster Caz said about PRs. He's a LEGENDARY MC....a pioneer in that regard. How does what he said jibe with the fact that HIS first DJ, pre cold crush, was a Latino....I think his first rap partner was Whipper Whip, another latino. This is all before the Grandmaster Caz that we know from the Cold Crush Brothers.

*Caz said the same thing in an EXCELLENT documentary about Puerto Rican culture in NYC post WW2 . The early ricans in hip hop agred with what Caz said about the cultural divide and that they were the rare PRs fukking with certain elements early on

What came to be known as hip hop was still forming and coalescing.
Afrika Bambaata gets a lot of credit as a godfather of hiphop because it was under his directive and efforts that gang beefs, ethnic beefs, turf battles were eased and people were able to come together and party.....and exchange culture. The scene that developed around his parties and outdoor jams and others in that era is what is normally cited as the forming of hip hop. Not that he created it...not that others weren't doing it before. When you see the ethnic and racial demographics for those areas of the South Bronx, this is where the controversy about which groups contributed to hip hop(or not) begin. Other eras, locations and figures are overshadowed.

Hip hop is an AA artform, the city and neighborhoods were it coalesced and formed were filled with born and bred NYers, recent AA southern transplants, Caribbeans,and Afro-Latinos.

You can't write the history of New Orleans music without mentioning its history and influences. Same for hip culture forming late 1960s-1970s era NYC.

 

[IllmaticDelta]

@IllmaticDelta
Going through and trying to cover every point that you've made step by step .keep checking this thread. Again, thanks

About what Grandmaster Caz said about PRs. He's a LEGENDARY MC....a pioneer in that regard. How does what he said jibe with the fact that HIS first DJ, pre cold crush, was a Latino....I think his first rap partner was Whipper Whip, another latino. This is all before the Grandmaster Caz that we know from the Cold Crush Brothers.

*Caz said the same thing in an EXCELLENT documentary about Puerto Rican culture in NYC post WW2 . The early ricans in hip hop agred with what Caz said about the cultural divide and that they were the rare PRs fukking with certain elements early on

whipper whip started rapping in 1978. Listen to his own words about how common/uncommon puerto ricans were in hiphop when he came in



Whipper Whip member of the Mighty Force

What came to be known as hip hop was still forming and coalescing.
Afrika Bambaata gets a lot of credit as a godfather of hiphop because it was under his directive and efforts that gang beefs, ethnic beefs, turf battles were eased and people were able to come together and party.....and exchange culture. The scene that developed around his parties and outdoor jams and others in that era is what is normally cited as the forming of hip hop.

alot of that is based on myth.

Not that he created it...not that others weren't doing it before. When you see the ethnic and racial demographics for those areas of the South Bronx, this is where the controversy about which groups contributed to hip hop(or not) begin. Other eras, locations and figures are overshadowed.

Hip hop is an AA artform, the city and neighborhoods were it coalesced and formed were filled with born and bred NYers, recent AA southern transplants, Caribbeans,and Afro-Latinos.

You can't write the history of New Orleans music without mentioning its history and influences. Same for hip culture forming late 1960s-1970s era NYC.

hiphop culture in NYC was pretty much founded on

1. Afram of southern heritage/culture laying the foundation musically from the soul/funk and later disco, era (that's where the big 2 turntable and mixer culture came from)

 

[IllmaticDelta]

Thanks
How accurate is that piece about graff when it completely skips over mentioning wartime graffiti? In most of the stuff I read about graff, they mentioned World War 2 wartime markings and tags by American soldiers. "killroy was here" was the o.g. tag allegedly.

modern (what we associate with hiphop) graffiti started in the 1960's

CORNBREAD: The Start of Modern Graffiti · WPA to Street Art: Visual Art as a Voice · Stevenson Library Digital Collections

Spoiler

go to 3:00 mins in this video



@ :25 secs

Paint It Back: The History of American Graffiti

Thanks to President Obama and the Academy Awards, Shepard Fairey and Banksy are household names today. But before mainstream media plastered their work across the world, they’d already done it for themselves, rising to the status of contemporary street art royalty: infamous and rich for making illegal and legal artwork that kids cop and celebrities and curators covet. Both artists would admit, however, that they are just part of a continuum. As Roger Gastman and Caleb Neelon, co-authors of The History of American Graffiti, assert in their introduction, “Humans write graffiti.” So true: cave paintings, petroglyphs, and pictographs begat World War II “Kilroy was here” and Bozo Texino scrawls on railcars begat disenfranchised kids “getting up” on any surface they could slick with ink and paint.
Exactly who was the first kid to spread a name or moniker across a cityscape is up for debate, but this book is as close as one will ever get to a definitive answer. A blow-by-blow, regional dissection of graffiti’s proliferation across the United States, relying on first-hand accounts, interviews, mountains of photographs, and a pinch of healthy speculation, Gastman and Neelon have connected the dots to reveal a comprehensive and important story about how doing something as simple as writing your name in a public space grew into a global movement that has left its colorful residue on all aspects of culture, from politics and media to fashion and urban planning.

Common knowledge to those in the know, but perhaps a surprise to neophytes, graffiti as we think of it today started in Philadelphia, not New York. In 1965, yearning for his grandmother’s cornbread while at reform school, Darryl Alexander McCray started writing CORNBREAD on the school’s buildings, vying for attention alongside the names of gangs. Released in 1967, CORNBREAD ran roughshod through North Philadelphia, inspiring others like COOL EARL and KOOL KLEPTO KIDD. Soon, teenagers were canvassing the city with their tags, running in crews, and keeping tabs on other crews operating in different neighborhoods (which eventually led to crews with national chapters, like TKO). KOOL KLEPTO KIDD recalls the first time he met writers from West Philadelphia, “that was really a beautiful feeling because we had been tracking each other for the longest time.”

There is an element of graffiti fueled by conflict – personal beefs, neighborhood disputes, gang rivalries – and while the book does not shy away from these realities, the dominant theme is that kids rallied around graffiti. In fact, as the authors astutely point out, they invented it: “Graffiti can claim something that no other art movement can: it was entirely created and developed by kids.” With the disillusionment fomented by a string of senseless assassinations, the Vietnam War, and Watergate, kids knew that it was up to them to stake their claim in a culture that was both indifferent and inept when it came to bettering the quality of life in the country’s urban centers.

Certainly that is what happened in New York when graffiti really took shape as the city’s finances and national reputation were in a downward spiral. As LIL SOUL 159, a Queens-based writer active in the early 1970s insists, “Any writer will tell you that graffiti tore down the racial barriers of the late 1960s and early 1970s – eradicated them! And you just didn’t see that in New York City until graffiti hit the scene. Once we smelled that ink, we were just writers.” This sense of camaraderie fueled with a dose of healthy competition spawned the highly stylized, audacious lettering that blanketed trains, buildings, billboards, and any other imaginable city substrate so as to spread a name far and wide. Writers prioritized subway lines that covered the most ground. Seeing SUPER KOOL 223 all over the 4 train, which runs between the Bronx and Brooklyn, STAY HIGH 149 decided he had to go bigger and better. This attitude, shared by most writers, resulted in tags evolving from written monikers followed by numbers usually representing streets to more ornate pieces comprising block and bubble lettering, characters, and other visual ornaments.

Paint It Back: The History of American Graffiti - The Millions

As Caz pointed about about b-boying/breakdance.....I think that once they started doing it, that P .R.s added cultural elements to graff. I think there's a tradition of street murals there.

(Will add more later)

there was no specific rican hand style

Thanks. That's one way to look at it. The other more direct way to view Morton's use of the term "Spanish tinge" is to look at the history of the city he was born in, New Orleans. City with both Spanish and French colonial history, migration patterns from former colonies of those Euro countries..including Cuba. New Orleans has a history of multiple cultures exchanging & blending .It's been one of the most fertile and influential places musically because of that . I'm not discounting what you've written and posted here but I think an objective person could see how Morton wasn't using a misnomer at all and that by Spanish tinge, he was directly acknowledging the latin musical influences in the city he's from.



(page 116, first paragraph last sentence)One of the pages that you posted noted that certain musical style was "ubiquitous in places where the dominant African culture was Yoruba or Kongo...including Cuba and Haiti" Again, with it's history New Orleans had waves of both enslaved Africans and free Africans from both Cuba and Haiti entering the city at different points.. N.O.'s history(and Louisiana's) is dramatically different from the rest of the country which is why it has such a rich musical tradition.

Kongos were all over the south. Sea islands is along way from the golf coast but the same motif is in both places

Again, I cannot discount the fact that African cultural traditions (from the same ethnic groups)carried over in other parts of the United States. I'm just saying that it's more likely that Morton picked up that element in New Orleans. He didn't misname it at all.....he got it from the Afro-Cuban cultural exchange in Louisiana.

you wont find any source with morton claiming he got it from some cubans. It's like saying Joplin got the same feel from Mexico because of what he titled his rag



simply put, it's a native, afram musical motif even from before morton's time. It's even in the afram cakewalk dance/music

The cakewalk or cake walk was a dance developed from the "prize walks" held in the late 19th century, generally at get-togethers on black slave plantations after emancipation in the Southern United States. Alternative names for the original form of the dance were "chalkline-walk", and the "walk-around". At the conclusion of a performance of the original form of the dance in an exhibit at the 1876 Centennial Exposition in Philadelphia, an enormous cake was awarded to the winning couple. Thereafter it was performed in minstrel shows, exclusively by men until the 1890s.
Performances of the "Cake Walk", including a "Comedy Cake Walk" were filmed by the American Mutoscope and Biograph Company in 1903. Prancing steps were the main steps shown in the "Cake Walk" segment, which featured two couples, and a solo dancer. All dancers were African-American.[34] 1903 was the same year that both the cakewalk and ragtime music arrived in Buenos Aires, Argentina. Leaning far forward or far backward is associated with defiance in Kongo. "We are palm trees, bent forward, bent back, but we never break." Another interpretations of these motions were "melting" to the beat, or protecting what is new (leaning forward) with the past (leaning back). The appearance of the cakewalk in Buenos Aires may have influenced early styles of tango.[35]

"Cakewalk King" Charles E. Johnson, who, with his wife Dora Jean, achieved fame cakewalking throughout the United States and Europe described his kind of dance as "simple, dignified and well-dressed".[36]

The Cake Walk was more fluid and imaginative than the established two-step, it was nevertheless a regularized form, more improvisational than its previous form, but highly formalized compared to later dances such as the Charleston, Black Bottom and Lindy Hop.[37]

Cakewalk as a musical form[edit]
Most cakewalk music is notated in 2/4 time signature with two alternate heavy beats per bar, giving it an ooompah rhythm.[38] The music was adopted into the works of various composers, including Robert Russell Bennett, John Philip Sousa, Claude Debussy and Louis Moreau Gottschalk. Debussy wrote "Golliwogg's Cake-walk" as the final movement of his Children's Corner suite for piano (published 1908),[39] and The Little Nigar, subtitled A Cakewalk, for a piano method in 1909. The Cake Walk was an adapted and amended two-step, which had been spawned by the popularity of marches, most notably by John Philip Sousa.[40]


The basic hambone rhythm.[41] Play (help·info)
Cakewalk music incorporated polyrhythm,[16] syncopation, and the hambone rhythm into the regular march rhythm.[42][43] Schuller considers the syncopation of the hambone rhythm to be "an idiomatic corruption, a flattened-out mutation of what was once the true polyrhythmic character of African music".[44] However, the figure known as the hambone is one of the most basic duple-pulse rhythmic cells in sub-Saharan African music traditions. The "hambone rhythm" is found in the oldest known traditional music of the Ewe of Ghana, Togo, and Dahomey, to name just one ethnic group.[45] It is heard in traditional drumming music, from Mali to Mozambique, and from Senegal to South Africa. The rhythmic figure is also prominent in popular African dance genres such as afrobeat, highlife, and soukous. Although its duple-pulse structure is identical to common time in European-based meter, the pattern of attack-points of the hambone rhythm possess a true African polyrhythmic character, or more precisely, a cross-rhythmic character.[46]

 

[get these nets]

whipper whip started rapping in 1978. Listen to his own words about how common/uncommon puerto ricans were in hiphop when he came in



Whipper Whip member of the Mighty Force




alot of that is based on myth.








hiphop culture in NYC was pretty much founded on

1. Afram of southern heritage/culture laying the foundation musically from the soul/funk and later disco, era (that's where the big 2 turntable and mixer culture came from)

True indeed about southern AAs bringing their sound system culture up north
.Doc posted from the last debate even mentioned the differences between the southern systems and the ones that Caribbean immigrants brought up north


Heard the Whipper Whip interview before...if you read my last post....I said that the PRs that were fukking with hip hop elements then AGREED with Caz saying that they were rare, not non existent. What I said was, if Wiz was Caz's first DJ..... and if Whip was his first rap partner.... and then he was part of a multi ethnic rap crew either Caz had a latin magnet or the latino dudes he was fukking with were authentically part of the culture.


I remember the guy in the video from our last debates, I fukk with his videos he speaks straight from the heart. What confuses me about what he was saying is that I didn't say that Bam ended all the street violence...but LITERALLY every rap figure from that scene an era has said on camera that the Bam shows are where crews and cultures began partying together in peace(for a change). that the clubs downtown didn't want/allow b-boys and that the Bronx became the hot spot for partying. If you grew up watching Ralph McDaniel and VMB, you've seen them all say it camera Melle Mel, Herc, Rock Steady Crew members, other Zulu nation people , Flash, DST, Kool Moe Dee, Charlie Chase.
The story about him grabbing the mic and giving the speech has been repeated by a lot of them also. Dude in the video is calling a lot of people liars.

At any rate, I used Bam's parties as a marker of when some of the the crew and cultural exchange began happening more consistently and when the contributions of latinos became more visible.

 

[get these nets]

Kongos were all over the south. Sea islands is along way from the golf coast but the same motif is in both places





you wont find any source with morton claiming he got it from some cubans. It's like saying Joplin got the same feel from Mexico because of what he titled his rag



simply put, it's a native, afram musical motif even from before morton's time. It's even in the afram cakewalk dance/music

Have to disagree with what you're saying about Morton. First you say that he misspoke when referring to it as a "Spanish tinge" out of his own mouth. The Spanish colony history and cultural influences to Louisiana are facts. I'm saying that it's easier to believe that he was influenced by those elements in his hometown.
Again, the EXACT page you posted listed Cuba, Haiti, and Louisiana as 3 of the 4 places where the musical style would have been commonplace.

 

[truth2you]

To add to what yall have said I think alot of Caribbeans live in a bubble when it comes to Black American/ADOS culture. We know already New York has always been the first place they go to. Many of them dont even know that most of the legends throughout Black American history that most of them were bred in the south and midwest.

I can honestly guarantee you that if you ask most Jamaicans the simplest question like where is Michael and Janet Jackson from, most wont even know that they are from Indiana or much less have heard of the state. shyt barely even know that Beyonce is from Texas. Dont know Prince is from Minnesota.

I say this to say that the back and forth with them is pointless cause most are one dimensional, they only see Black American culture through the prism that is New York and they have been that way for over 50 years. They have one relative that comes up to America and ALWAYS to New York for a brief period then go back down and talk shyt and generalize just from New York. Because of the NY obsession they also just link only link rappers to black culture since most of the known rappers were from New York and they go extra hard with the Jamaicans invented rap nonsense because many of those NY rappers have Caribbean family...they neglect to mention that statistic wise its not unusual since NY has had the highest amount of Caribbeans.

But yeah ask these Jamaicans the most basic questions about black american culture as it relates to the south and midwest and watch them go blank

BINGO!

 

[IllmaticDelta]

True indeed about southern AAs bringing their sound system culture up north
.Doc posted from the last debate even mentioned the differences between the southern systems and the ones that Caribbean immigrants brought up north


Heard the Whipper Whip interview before...if you read my last post....I said that the PRs that were fukking with hip hop elements then AGREED with Caz saying that they were rare, not non existent. What I said was, if Wiz was Caz's first DJ..... and if Whip was his first rap partner.... and then he was part of a multi ethnic rap crew either Caz had a latin magnet or the latino dudes he was fukking with were authentically part of the culture.

The latins that caz knew were brought into the culture at a later date after it's origin. They were not founders to any of the core elements to the culture. So basically, as has already been stated, black people were the originators, latins saw it and then later migrated into it.

I remember the guy in the video from our last debates, I fukk with his videos he speaks straight from the heart. What confuses me about what he was saying is that I didn't say that Bam ended all the street violence...but LITERALLY every rap figure from that scene an era has said on camera that the Bam shows are where crews and cultures began partying together in peace(for a change). that the clubs downtown didn't want/allow b-boys and that the Bronx became the hot spot for partying. If you grew up watching Ralph McDaniel and VMB, you've seen them all say it camera Melle Mel, Herc, Rock Steady Crew members, other Zulu nation people , Flash, DST, Kool Moe Dee, Charlie Chase.
The story about him grabbing the mic and giving the speech has been repeated by a lot of them also. Dude in the video is calling a lot of people liars.

At any rate, I used Bam's parties as a marker of when some of the the crew and cultural exchange began happening more consistently and when the contributions of latinos became more visible.

the bam parties they're talking about happened but this was at a later date more near the early 80's. Kool Moe Dee and Rocksteady crew is exactly why we can see this because they were not part of hiphop before 1975. Kool Moe d didn't get into the hiphop scene until 1977

JayQuan : Peace , its an honor . Who was the first person you heard Emcee ; and what year did you start ?



Moe Dee : Dj Hollywood , actually Luv Bug Starski first , then Hollywood . And I started in 1977

KOOL MOE DEE

he didn't see any of the bronx guys until 78/79

MD : My perspective is a lil different 'cus im from Manhattan . It was really crackin in the Bronx on a level that we didn't know about which is why we heard Luvbug first . Hollywood would come to the Appollo and Luvbug would come to the Renaissance on 137th & 7th ave. We heard them say slogans ; like the first time Flash & them came to the Audobon Ballroom we heard people yell " Zulu Gestapo " and we didnt know what it was . In Manhattan , and its true on some level till this day ; its a whole different mentality from the Bronx , Brooklyn & Queens , which I didnt know at the time - because you basically just know your neighborhood .

The Nicky Barnes era was booming and just ending at the same time , and we were looking at the drug dealers on one hand ; but the music scene wasnt that prominent in Manhattan. We would get dressed up and go to the hotel Diplomat and parties were a version of the Dj/Emcee. It wasnt that political . Some of the free lunch programs were still goin' on - based on the last leg of the Black Panther Party . As far as Hip Hop Manhattan was after the Bronx . Brooklyn had Dj Flowers & people like that ; but we never went to Brooklyn , so we didnt hear about him until after the fact .



JQ : At the point between the Treacherous 3 forming and Sugarhill / Enjoy releasing records who did the T 3 see as a threat lyrically - specifically you , did anyone pose a threat to you ?



KMD : Nah , we didnt look at it as a threat at the time . A lot of that energy came from the Furious 5 , in fact they weren't even the Furious 5 yet . T3 didnt become a group until ' 78 and originally it was me L.A. & Spoonie G . Spoonie left because he made a record in ' 79 and I replaced him with Special K . K went to my school , I had already met him through the fast rhymes . So there was no atmosphere of threat , more trying to fit in & get a handle of what was going on . It really wasnt until ' 78 that Flash & The Furious 4 formed - Rahiem wasnt down yet . I remember when it was just the three Emcees and then Flash put Mr Ness down. I remember the night Flash premiered the backspin . That was when I knew that I was gonna take this seriously & do it for the rest of my life . Until that time I wrote rhymes , but it was more like Hollywood & Starski with the crowd participation and call & response. I wasnt really taking it seriously....they would bring music & set up in the park & I would get on and do a little something . But that night at the Audobon I went to see Starski...but they would double bill it - they had Flash from 10 - 12 and Starski from 12 - 2 ; then Flash from 2- 4 and Starski from 4 - 6 . At that time Starski was the headliner at the Audobon ; and the hottest thing as far as the club was concerned . He & Hollywood were the # 1 & 2 at the time . Until Flash came to Manhattan (this is some more friction between Manhattan & the Bronx) it wasn't that Flash wasnt valid ; but when he came it opened him up to the domination of the whole situation ' cuz we were still lookin at Starski & Hollywood as the top dogs . We heard about Flash and Herc but as far as New York went we didnt see them we didnt know what they were doing ; and nobody is rockin parties like Luvbug - so he is the top dog.

 

[truth2you]

"Copy and paste from google" I'm afraid not. Nobody's doing that at all.
"From unknown sources" From the horses mouth, not scholars who weren't present and only study music from the outside.
"They are our sons"
Modern Jamaican and Modern PR musical culture is AA based with an accent. Kompas CAME FROM JAZZ, even you can get it ZOE.
You have some type of dog in this fight, and there's no debate..."bbbbut this book in 1996"
I'm sorry the brother died before he could correct his errors.

He does, just like all of them who go so hard to prove something that they can't. YOU CAN'T CHANGE HISTORY!

I don't understand why some fight so hard about something they know they weren't involved in. There is no way he is west indian, acting like west indians who just got here, and were older then 25, were partying with other black people in the hip hop world. Them nikkas would have been scared as shyt to go to a hip hop party

First it weren't that many in the early 70's. And a lot didn't like hip hop when it started growing in the mid-late 70's because it was street culture. Even older black americans didn't like it. That's how I can tell he isn't telling the truth about something, if he is from NYC!

Krs-one got a lot wrong with hip hop history, but he even described how West Indians(Jamaicans) felt about rap in the beginning. When he is talking about hip hop, he is talking about break beats. If West Indians were so involved, why would they hate break beats so much? Is it because that wasn't their style of music. They liked more old school stuff, and reggae type music, which you aint dancing to!
"It was seventy-six to 1980
The dreads in Brooklyn was crazy
You couldn't bring out your set with no hip-hop
Because the pistols would go"



I knew personally things were changing with the older crowd when i saw a dread bumping Slick Rick's "the rulers back" on Flatbush avenue. THAT is when i knew rap was growing. Before that, you wouldn't have seen it. DJ Red Alert needs to get more props then he does for bring dancehall, and rap, together. Before him, both stayed seperate.

I'm glad I lived this shyt, and can tell the truth, these nikkas are really trying to rewrite history

 

[IllmaticDelta]

Have to disagree with what you're saying about Morton. First you say that he misspoke when referring to it as a "Spanish tinge" out of his own mouth. The Spanish colony history and cultural influences to Louisiana are facts.

the local "black" culture had nothing to do with "spanish people" or latins. Jazz was born from the afram culture (see buddy bolden and big four motif) from uptown new orleans. The motif he called the "spanish tinge" was known and documented in afram music decades before morton came on the scene and in places that had nothing to do with new orleans.

I'm saying that it's easier to believe that he was influenced by those elements in his hometown.
Again, the EXACT page you posted listed Cuba, Haiti, and Louisiana as 3 of the 4 places where the musical style would have been commonplace.

because of common african origins, not because the new world groups that descend from them (they mention charleston South Carolina/sea islands for the same reason)

 

[CASHAPP]

He does, just like all of them who go so hard to prove something that they can't. YOU CAN'T CHANGE HISTORY!

I don't understand why some fight so hard about something they know they weren't involved in. There is no way he is west indian, acting like west indians who just got here, and were older then 25, were partying with other black people in the hip hop world. Them nikkas would have been scared as shyt to go to a hip hop party

First it weren't that many in the early 70's. And a lot didn't like hip hop when it started growing in the mid-late 70's because it was street culture. Even older black americans didn't like it. That's how I can tell he isn't telling the truth about something, if he is from NYC!

Krs-one got a lot wrong with hip hop history, but he even described how West Indians(Jamaicans) felt about rap in the beginning. When he is talking about hip hop, he is talking about break beats. If West Indians were so involved, why would they hate break beats so much? Is it because that wasn't their style of music. They liked more old school stuff, and reggae type music, which you aint dancing to!
"It was seventy-six to 1980
The dreads in Brooklyn was crazy
You couldn't bring out your set with no hip-hop
Because the pistols would go"



I knew personally things were changing with the older crowd when i saw a dread bumping Slick Rick's "the rulers back" on Flatbush avenue. THAT is when i knew rap was growing. Before that, you wouldn't have seen it. DJ Red Alert needs to get more props then he does for bring dancehall, and rap, together. Before him, both stayed seperate.

I'm glad I lived this shyt, and can tell the truth, these nikkas are really trying to rewrite history

Jamaicans are island versions of Nigerians. SUPER ARROGANT.

20 years from now they will probably say Tupac had Jamaican relatives

 

[get these nets]

the local "black" culture had nothing to do with "spanish people" or latins. Jazz was born from the afram culture (see buddy bolden and big four motif) from uptown new orleans. The motif he called the "spanish tinge" was known and documented in afram music decades before morton came on the scene and in places that had nothing to do with new orleans.








because of common african origins, not because the new world groups that descend from them (they mention charleston South Carolina/sea islands for the same reason)

the jelly roll morton is in the spoiler again

Spoiler

after he says the line bout the Spanish tinge......he plays this song....

Spoiler

"La Paloma", known in English as No More, is a popular Spanish song that has been produced and reinterpreted in diverse cultures, settings, arrangements, and recordings over the last 140 years. The song was composed and written by the Spanish composer from the Basque region Sebastián Iradier (later Yradier) in the 1850s.




Mentions the phrase Spanish tinge, then proceeds to play a popular Spanish song to demonstrate what he's talking about. A song that he would have likely become familiar with because of the Latin cultural influence in New Orleans.

I brought up the Cuban,Haiti, Louisiana strong Yoruba and Kongo ethnic influence in music as noted in the page.....to pinpoint that it was much more likely that Morton became familiar with the concept in New Orleans than the other explanation. the other explanation is more of a reach. Slavers in both French and Spanish louisian were the same ones/family as the ones in Cuba and St. Domingue. They were transporting Africans from the same places. Free Blacks from those places were moving back and forth also.

 

[truth2you]

I just got through puffing, so I'm on high alert. This thread has got me thinking that it's the drum, and the NYC environment, that caused hip hop to be born here. When you realize that NYC is the home of gangs for so many groups, and the 60's was when blacks started fighting back again, you can start to see why the good God made it its place to start the change we have today! People know the days of blacks being stepped on is over, but more people are coming together then ever in this country, as well. it's because of that DRUM!

Think about it, who is the FATHER of hip hop music? JAMES BROWN. Now, who was James Brown to black people in America, and all over the world? He was our spokesperson. He helped us feel proud to be black in a time they said we were NOTHING! He even spoke about things other didn't touch like "king Heroin", which was KILLING OUR PEOPLE in this country, yet no one cared because it didn't effect them!

Now, you can see our energy as a people was one of being in a war for our spirits, and the essence of who we are, then who comes along to enhance the fighting energy? JAMES BROWN! Then his sound was focused in NYC because that is the place where the music technology was gonna change to something that was previously unheard of. stronger torque Turntables, complex mixers, powerful amps, nightclubs for the acoustics, and strong speakers, was the new thing in the 70's. This technology allowed the average man to be heard, and let hundreds or more of people feel how he feels through the music. This man will be called a DJ! Before the Dj, it was a band who entertained the crowd, and they played certain songs, not hundreds like a dj. The Dj was the first person to allow music to be played nonstop for hours.

Back to James Brown. Now, that we see NYC was the perfect environment for this change to occur, we need a sound to get the warrior spirit going, and BOOM, here comes that "boom bap boom boom bap! This emphasis on the drum went perfect with the new technology. Now the dj goes outside with his equipment, and the young street kids hear that DRUM in the new music(from everyone loving this new sound, so they make music like it as well), and start dancing. Once a certain Dj notices this, he decides to focus on it to make himself distinct from other dj's. Because he does this, it causes other street kids to get more into the arts. This was a big thing, because NO ONE CARED ABOUT THESE CHILDREN DUE TO RACISM,AND THEM BEING EXTREMELY POOR! They even hated themselves, this is why they fought so much. Gangs were all over NYC.

Back to James Brown, AGAIN! His music was so funky, yet simple because he talked(rapped?), he was able to attract all types of people. This also helped that young gang member realize he can speak about his life in the hell he was living, but instead of being like James Brown, he can do it like the radio dj. But instead of being proper, he could be himself, and "rap" to his friends to a beat that brought out the warrior in them, and let them realize they have value, regardless of what society says about them. Unfortunately, his friends are some of the toughest people in the city, and that spirit often went too far, which is why hip hop is STILL known for its street audience, regardless of what the rapper is rapping about. It's that drum!

There is a reason as soon as an artist goes mainstream, that drum is lowered more

 

[truth2you]

Jamaicans are island versions of Nigerians. SUPER ARROGANT.

20 years from now they will probably say Tupac had Jamaican relatives

No doubt, and they will admit to it!

I still have love for a lot of them, it's just when some of them go there, they take it to far

 

[IllmaticDelta]

the jelly roll morton is in the spoiler again

Spoiler

after he says the line bout the Spanish tinge......he plays this song....

Spoiler

"La Paloma", known in English as No More, is a popular Spanish song that has been produced and reinterpreted in diverse cultures, settings, arrangements, and recordings over the last 140 years. The song was composed and written by the Spanish composer from the Basque region Sebastián Iradier (later Yradier) in the 1850s.




Mentions the phrase Spanish tinge, then proceeds to play a popular Spanish song to demonstrate what he's talking about. A song that he would have likely become familiar with because of the Latin cultural influence in New Orleans.

I brought up the Cuban,Haiti, Louisiana strong Yoruba and Kongo ethnic influence in music as noted in the page.....to pinpoint that it was much more likely that Morton became familiar with the concept in New Orleans than the other explanation. the other explanation is more of a reach. Slavers in both French and Spanish louisian were the same ones/family as the ones in Cuba and St. Domingue. They were transporting Africans from the same places. Free Blacks from those places were moving back and forth also.

You're missing the point Im making that the motif is from africa and jelly roll not realizing this linked it to something "spanish" because the motif was real popular in "spanish" (latin america) lands.

The habanera rhythm's time signature is 2
4. An accented upbeat in the middle of the bar lends power to the habanera rhythm, especially when it is as a bass[15] ostinato in contradanzas such as "Tu madre es conga."[16] Syncopated cross-rhythms called the tresillo and the cinquillo, basic rhythmic cells in Afro-Latin and African music, began the Cuban dance's differentiation from its European form. Their unequally-grouped accents fall irregularly in a one or two bar pattern:[17] the rhythm superimposes duple and triple accents in cross-rhythm (3:2) or vertical hemiola.[18]

This pattern is heard throughout Africa, and in many Diaspora musics,[19]

known as the congo,[20] tango-congo,[21] and tango.[22] Thompson identifies the rhythm as the Kongo mbilu a makinu, or 'call to the dance.'[15][23]The syncopated rhythm may be vocalised as "boom...ba-bop-bop",[15] and "da, ka ka kan."[23] It may be sounded with the Ghanaian beaded gourd instrument axatse, vocalized as: "pa ti pa pa", beginning on the second beat so that the last "pa" coincides with beat one, ending on the beginning of the cycle so that the part contributes to the cyclic nature of the rhythm, the "pa's" sounding the tresillo by striking the gourd against the knee, and the "ti" sounding the main beat two by raising the gourd and striking it with the free hand.[24]

The cinquillo pattern is sounded on a bell in the folkloric Congolese-based makuta as played in Havana.[25]

considering this motif was found/documented in afram folk music around the south/way from new orleans, there is no reason to think it came from cubans but more from a common african stock

as I said before

The shout is also called the ''holy dance,'' and is associated with church services, though traditionally shouts were held after the actual service was over and the chairs and benches had been pushed back against the walls. The shouters, singing call-and-response songs with texts based on Biblical sources, move counter-clockwise in a circle, singing and clapping their hands to reinforce a basic rhythm that is rapped out on the church floor with a broom handle or some other piece of wood.

On Friday the shouters, six women wearing the long dresses of their grandmothers' day, also acted out certain song lyrics with body movements. Several extended their arms, bent at the elbows, and flapped them up and down like birds, a gesture familiar from a number of West African dance traditions. But these movements were strictly controlled.


The basic rhythm pattern of the shout is the Habanera, a West African rhythm whose name suggests a strong new-world association with Cuba. The Habanera is also related to the black American rhythmic complex variously identified as ''hambone'' and the Bo Diddley beat.

Some of the shouts performed on Friday also incorporated stop-time breaks, suggesting a link between the shouts and early jazz and blues.

Gospel: McIntosh Shouters

spanish tinge is a misnomer to something that is actually AFRICAN. habenera/clave/tresillo etc.. are just spanish names for an african motif. Hambone and Bo Diddley are english (usa) names for the same motif