Always thought this came from Africa or Caribbean ...actually it was New Orleans

get these nets

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SHE WROTE IT TOO...
Melanie Zeck is Managing Editor of the Black Music Research Journal, the peer-reviewed journal of the Center for Black Music Research (CBMR). Trained as a music librarian and historian, she joined the CBMR in 2005 to provide fact-finding and fact-checking services for the Center’s staff and constituents. In this capacity, she has collaborated with and provided extensive informational support for researchers worldwide on a broad range of topics in black music research and history. She has also been consulted by American and European conductors, instrumentalists, vocalists in the discovery and programming of pieces by composers of African descent for public concerts and recitals.

In 2014, Zeck established a post-baccalaureate internship program through which recent graduates from the United States and Europe engage with the CBMR’s archival materials in order to produce original research. As part of the program, she hosts informational sessions and mini-classes on a wide variety of topics that are integral to black music research, including: issues in African languages and transcription, database research strategies, and trans-Atlantic history (pre-1900), among others. Each project will be described on the CBMR’s new online platform: CrossTalk.

Zeck and CBMR founder, Samuel A. Floyd Jr., recently finished their book-length manuscript on black music, which is currently in production with Oxford University Press (OUP). Their second book, with Rosita Sands, is an edited, multi-volume anthology of eighty-two source readings on black music history and is under contract with OUP. Zeck has published several bibliographies and smaller writings on black music in printed and online formats, including in the Encyclopedia of African American Music (ABC-CLIO 2011), in CBMR Digest, and on the Oxford University Press’s OUPBlog.




:camby: Another WHITE anthropologist conflating AA and other people

Really, the late Dr. Samuel Floyd is reduced to an afterthought for Archives of African American history that he founded? The white chick being involved negates those projects and that book? Wow. !

The freshly googled info y'all are bringing to this thread is from where,though?

Fact that you're dismissing the project and who he is, for the sake of this argument says a lot.
 
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Really, the late Dr. Samuel Floyd is reduced to an afterthought for Archives of African American history that he founded? The white chick being involved negates those projects and that book? Wow. !

The freshly googled info y'all are bringing to this thread is from where,though?

Fact that you're dismissing the project and who he is, for the sake of this argument says a lot.
Book was written in 1996 and had a white female coauthor. Elders can be wrong all the time..and he was wrong. Stop using people who aren't YOUR people to prove a lie.
ISSA LIE.
 

CASHAPP

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To add to what yall have said I think alot of Caribbeans live in a bubble when it comes to Black American/ADOS culture. We know already New York has always been the first place they go to. Many of them dont even know that most of the legends throughout Black American history that most of them were bred in the south and midwest.

I can honestly guarantee you that if you ask most Jamaicans the simplest question like where is Michael and Janet Jackson from, most wont even know that they are from Indiana or much less have heard of the state. shyt barely even know that Beyonce is from Texas. Dont know Prince is from Minnesota.

I say this to say that the back and forth with them is pointless cause most are one dimensional, they only see Black American culture through the prism that is New York and they have been that way for over 50 years. They have one relative that comes up to America and ALWAYS to New York for a brief period then go back down and talk shyt and generalize just from New York. Because of the NY obsession they also just link only link rappers to black culture since most of the known rappers were from New York and they go extra hard with the Jamaicans invented rap nonsense because many of those NY rappers have Caribbean family...they neglect to mention that statistic wise its not unusual since NY has had the highest amount of Caribbeans.

But yeah ask these Jamaicans the most basic questions about black american culture as it relates to the south and midwest and watch them go blank
 

get these nets

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You're fighting to prove a falsehood that's being dismantled before your eyes, that's why you're reaching and introducing cultural biters and outliers to the mix who are continually influenced by us TO THIS DAY.
No, not at all . I hardly think my premise was dismantled..when people will outright dismiss books by noted music scholars, yet basically copy and paste lines from google (from unknown sources), I'd say that it supports my side of the argument.
When adults use the term "they are our sons", they show their lack of objectivity on the subject. Obviously have given up being open to reason.
 

CASHAPP

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There were NONE, PERIOD.
Even the original Puerto Rican and Jamaican (not jamaicans) JAMAICAN participant (who said he shed his accent and mannerisms to fit in) Specifically said "it was a black thing"
The jamaican guy said "it was an american thing"
stop trying to keep that lie narrative going because it doesn't match how you feel. I thought it was true, too...Now I know it isn't and I'm HAPPY TO REMIND YOU AGAIN AND AGAIN.
I tell jamaicans to their FACE when they bring up Herc. I'll keep on reiterating the point. I'm not trying to claim Kompas...and IT CAME FROM JAZZ.
:mjlit:
YOU WANNA PARTY?

There needs to be that big movie on both James Brown and George Clinton in theatres promoted the same level that Black Panther was. And it needs to correlate how both were some of the true biggest influences of rap. With documented receipts from album samples, interviews of their favorite reggae legends talking about being influenced by black american music, footage of rappers talking about their biggest influences being funk and soul and how rapping was going on before the 60s. Someone needs to be putting alot of funds into a movie or movies like that at an independent black media source.

That is the only way this foolishness is gonna stop. You heard about that G-Funk documentary on Youtube last year where Snoop and Warren G were talking about that era right? At some points they would talk about being influenced by George Clinton. We need more documentaries like this but on a bigger level or maybe a series of them to have it stick in their head.
 
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No, not at all . I hardly think my premise was dismantled..when people will outright dismiss books by noted music scholars, yet basically copy and paste lines from google (from unknown sources), I'd say that it supports my side of the argument.
When adults use the term "they are our sons", they show their lack of objectivity on the subject. Obviously have given up being open to reason.
"Copy and paste from google" I'm afraid not. Nobody's doing that at all.
"From unknown sources" From the horses mouth, not scholars who weren't present and only study music from the outside.
"They are our sons"
Modern Jamaican and Modern PR musical culture is AA based with an accent. Kompas CAME FROM JAZZ, even you can get it ZOE.
You have some type of dog in this fight, and there's no debate..."bbbbut this book in 1996"
:camby: I'm sorry the brother died before he could correct his errors.
 

get these nets

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Book was written in 1996 and had a white female coauthor. Elders can be wrong all the time..and he was wrong. Stop using people who aren't YOUR people to prove a lie.
ISSA LIE.
He was wrong because you read any parts of the book,?or because the white chick's involvement gives you an out?

I mentioned the book because the other poster was clearly just running with the first things that popped up on google about Black music. I read the book years ago and don't recall anything that was written about hip hop. The stance I've taken is mine...........NOT HIS. I didn't mention the book to back up what I've said about hip hop.

Now, is he still wrong just on gp?
 

get these nets

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"Copy and paste from google" I'm afraid not. Nobody's doing that at all.
"From unknown sources" From the horses mouth, not scholars who weren't present and only study music from the outside.
"They are our sons"
Modern Jamaican and Modern PR musical culture is AA based with an accent. Kompas CAME FROM JAZZ, even you can get it ZOE.
You have some type of dog in this fight, and there's no debate..."bbbbut this book in 1996"
:camby: I'm sorry the brother died before he could correct his errors.
What errors did he make?
HE SAID NOTHING ABOUT THE STANCE I'VE TAKEN IN THIS THREAD.
You dismissed him on GP as an out . I recommended the book because of the obvious freshly googled stuff being presented in the thread. For the people actually interested and not just looking for "look here's proof that they are our sons" info.

Again, rather than look for what you thought he said and check his research, you took the easy way and looked for an out. "He's wrong""white chick co-wrote it" "the elder was wrong" "stop using people that aren't your people"

wow

The way that you were so willing to dismiss this man, regardless of what he wrote or what you thought he said shows that you're not open to debate the topic. Your mind is made up.

His bio is in the spoiler.
Dr. Samuel A. Floyd, Jr.
2/1/1937 – 7/11/2016

Samuel A. Floyd, Jr., educator, musician, scholar and champion of black music research died in Chicago on Monday, July 11, after an extended illness. Dr. Floyd was born in Tallahassee, Florida, on February 1, 1937. He received his bachelor’s degree from Florida A & M University and later earned a masters (1965) and Ph.D. (1969) from Southern Illinois University at Carbondale. He began his music career as a high school band director in Florida before returning to Florida A & M to serve as Instructor and Assistant Band Director under legendary band director William “Pat” Foster. In 1964 he joined the faculty at Southern Illinois University, Carbondale, and in 1978, he began a faculty position as Professor of Music at Fisk University, where he founded and served as Director of the Institute for Research in Black American Music. In 1983 he moved to Columbia College Chicago to found the Center for Black Music Research (CBMR), which became an internationally respected research center under his leadership. Critical to the creation of the CBMR was the establishment of the CBMR Library and Archives, which has grown to be one of the most comprehensive collections of music, recordings, and research materials devoted to black music. At Columbia College, Dr. Floyd also served as Academic Dean from 1990 to 1993 and as Interim Vice President for Academic Affairs and Provost during 1999–2001. He retired as Director Emeritus of the CBMR in 2002.

At the CBMR Dr. Floyd devoted himself to discovering and publishing the information that would allow black music to receive its rightful recognition from audiences and scholars. His early publications (with Marsha Heizer) were bibliographies of research materials and biographical resources. Later he edited a collection of essays, Black Music in the Harlem Renaissance (1990), which won the Irving Lowens Award for Distinguished Scholarship in American Music from the Society for American Music. He also edited the International Dictionary of Black Composers (1999) a reference book that won several awards from the library community, including an honorable mention for the American Library Association’s Dartmouth Medal in 2000.

While still at Fisk, Dr. Floyd founded Black Music Research Journal, a juried scholarly journal which moved with him to the CBMR in 1983; it has been published continuously since its founding in 1980. He also founded and edited a grant-funded journal, Lenox Avenue: A Journal of Interartistic Inquiry, dedicated to exploring the role of music within the broader arts of the African Diaspora, the Music of the African Diaspora book series, which is published by the University of California Press, a monographs series, and several newsletters. Under his direction, the CBMR held numerous national and international conferences highlighting scholarly research, sponsored a series of postgraduate research fellowships funded by the Rockefeller Foundation for scholars studying the music of the African Diaspora, and taught two seminars for college teachers on African-American music, under the auspices of the National Endowment for the Humanities. He also established the Alton Augustus Adams Music Research Institute in St. Thomas (2000–2006), U.S. Virgin Islands, to study and document black music throughout the Caribbean.

Performance was another important aspect of the CBMR’s programming. Dr. Floyd created four professional ensembles at the CBMR: the Black Music Repertory Ensemble, devoted to music by black composers; Ensemble Kalinda Chicago, which performed African-influenced music of Latin America and the Caribbean; Ensemble Stop-Time, which concentrated on African-American popular music and jazz; and the New Black Music Repertory Ensemble, which combined the performance capabilities and repertoires of the previous three ensembles. The ensembles, which introduced audiences at every level to black music, produced recordings, performed nearly 200 concerts locally and on national tour, recorded eight nationally broadcast radio shows, and presented lecture-demonstrations in schools.

Dr. Floyd was a prodigious grant-writer who won significant funding to help support the CBMR’s public programming and the development of the CBMR Library and Archives. Among the most supportive agencies were the National Endowment for the Arts, the National Endowment for the Humanities, the Illinois Arts Council, the Institute for Museum and Library Services, the Chicago Community Trust, and the Sara Lee, Joyce, Ford, John D. and Catherine T. MacArthur, Rockefeller, and Fry foundations, among many others.

Samuel Floyd was a true visionary. Through the CBMR he was able to realize his concept of black music as a totality expressing African Diasporic culture across genre and time. His book, The Power of Black Music, published by Oxford University Press in 1995, epitomized his ideas. It was one of the first scholarly studies to transcend historical reporting and synthesize the information he had founded the CBMR to discover and preserve. In his retirement he was engaged in further studies intended to carry his synthesis even further. Two new books are scheduled to be published by Oxford University Press.

Among the awards received by Dr. Floyd in recognition of his vision, service, and contributions are: the National Association of Negro Musician’s Award for Distinguished Contributions to Music, the Pacesetters Award in recognition of Outstanding Achievement in Higher Education from the American Association of Higher Education Black Caucus, and the Lifetime Achievement Award from the Society for American Music. Floyd was a Fellow at the University of Michigan Institute for the Humanities, and was twice a Fellow at the National Humanities Center, Research Triangle, North Carolina, including a term as the John Hope Franklin Senior Fellow. He was also Scholar-in-Residence at the Bellagio Student and Conference Center (Italy), a Robert M. Trotter Lecturer for The College Music Society, and was named an Honorary Member of the American Musicological Society.

Dr. Floyd is survived by his wife of over 50 years, Barbara, and their three children—Wanda, Samuel Floyd III, and Cecilia.
 
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instead of the University of Google

try reading this book that I posted in the Root section last month

Black Music History primer

from AFRICAN AMERICAN music scholar Samuel Floyd

How about we go straight to the words of the musicians themselves. Bo diddley himself claims that the he got the inspiration for the beat from listening to gospel music at the church. Red Saunders said he heard the beat from a children's song(hambone). James P Johnson Said he first heard it from dock workers from South Carolina in NY. NONE of them attest to a cuban origin of the rhythm, because it has since the time of slavery been apart of the african-american musical tradition in the form of the juba dance as a way to compensate for the ban on drums throughout the american colonies. It's an AFRICAN originated rhythm that made it's way to the US via the transatlantic slave trade. It has nothing to do with the cuban clave or habenera other than sharing a common african origin.
 
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IllmaticDelta

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You've not read me use the term "Latin founders of hip hop". What I've said in this thread and others is that the culture that formed as hip hop definitely has Afro latino elements.

what Im saying is, how can there be latino influences when they had no influence on afams? As I showed you, the interplay left i,pact on THEIR music/culture, not afram music/culture



b-boying DEFINITELY,

bboys origins are afram dance. Latinos were not doing that dance(bboying) until it was almost the 1980's



graffiti DEFINITELY

graffiti started and spread into NYC from black philadelphians


history-of-graffiti-infographic.jpg


MN129984.jpg





....Djing sure,

na





emceeing..that's the one I'm least sure about.

:usure:



The ethnic tensions? That was real. Latinos being late to b-boying. That's real....Crazy Legs has said this on camera.

I posted what I think the numbers were for Blacks(total) and Puerto Ricans in NYC in 1960. When you figure that the Black total is made up of AAs and Caribbean people, you see how large the Rican population relative to African Americans was. Ricans were in their enclaves for a while, but in some spots sooner than later...PRs and AAs were running together, going to school together, cliquing up in gangs, inter marrying,etc. They were occupying the same areas with comparable populations.
Never will those things happen without cultural exchange .


.

of course the ricans and blacks were largley in the same hoods but they had their own cultures which meant they stayed within their own group(s) for the most part. Crazy Legs has an interview where he talks about this but right now I can't find it.
 
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What errors did he make?
HE SAID NOTHING ABOUT THE STANCE I'VE TAKEN IN THIS THREAD.
You dismissed him on GP as an out . I recommended the book because of the obvious freshly googled stuff being presented in the thread. For the people actually interested and not just looking for "look here's proof that they are our sons" info.

Again, rather than look for what you thought he said and check his research, you took the easy way and looked for an out. "He's wrong""white chick co-wrote it" "the elder was wrong" "stop using people that aren't your people"

wow
It's wrong and I'm sorry you can't understand the information being given to you. You're getting upset and it's all been provided in this thread. I don't have to dignify a book that came out when I was 12. We have new sources of info now and that came out during a 1:1 period...a white woman did a lot of legwork and that particular brand of anthropologist is known for CONFLATION...did you not see her "accolades" and positioning?
:mjpls:
 

Samori Toure

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There needs to be that big movie on both James Brown and George Clinton in theatres promoted the same level that Black Panther was. And it needs to correlate how both were some of the true biggest influences of rap. With documented receipts from album samples, interviews of their favorite reggae legends talking about being influenced by black american music, footage of rappers talking about their biggest influences being funk and soul and how rapping was going on before the 60s. Someone needs to be putting alot of funds into a movie or movies like that at an independent black media source.

That is the only way this foolishness is gonna stop. You heard about that G-Funk documentary on Youtube last year where Snoop and Warren G were talking about that era right? At some points they would talk about being influenced by George Clinton. We need more documentaries like this but on a bigger level or maybe a series of them to have it stick in their head.

They made a movie about James Brown. It was called "Get on Up"

Get_On_Up_poster.jpg


What people might not know about James Brown is that some of the biggest acts of his time like the "Ohio Players" and Bootsy Collins played in his band. Additionally, Brown and a Jazz musician named Pee Wee Ellis are partially credited with creating Funk, which is a fusion of R&B and Jazz. This is an interview given by Ellis after the release of "Get on Up":

"...A friend of mine, Waymon Reed, who played trumpet in the band, called me up, because James Brown needed a saxophone player. James Brown had seen me playing with my own group in Florida a couple of years before, so he knew of me. The rest is history," he said. "James Brown was born and went straight to crazy ....Being a jazz head, I really wasn't that aware of James Brown when I joined the band, but my first night in the wings watching the show (which all new band members had to do) took my breath away.... I couldn't believe what I was seeing."

Brown started to evolve in the late 60's and Ellis said his "jazz influence melded with [Brown's R&B] roots and funk was born." Some of Brown's first official funk songs included "Cold Sweat" in 1967 [which Ellis co-wrote] and "I Got the Feelin'" the next year... ."

What You Never Knew About James Brown




 

IllmaticDelta

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You posted later in this thread that jazz icon Dizzy Gillespie added elements of latin jazz into his music. By posting that, are you walking back this earlier post about how the exchange was always one way? If Dizz did it, I'm certain that lesser talents followed his lead and did it as well.

The cultural exchange was 99% of the time AA influencing the globe, but I think people are reluctant to concede that 1% where it's documented to have swung the other way.


For example
Blues legend Jelly Roll Morton




what jelly called the spanish tinge was a misnomer because he associated it with "cuban-latin" (african in origin) clave/habanera which is something aleady in afram music such as mississipi fife and drum, hambone and sea islands ring shout. The same clave/habanera feel he called the spanish tinge is the feel of gullah dancing

the charleston dance

The-Wicked-Waltz-and-Other-Scandalous-Dances-01-1.jpg

The-Wicked-Waltz-and-Other-Scandalous-Dances-02-1.jpg



The Charleston is a dance named for the harbor city of Charleston, South Carolina. The rhythm was popularized in mainstream dance music in the United States by a 1923 tune called "The Charleston" by composer/pianist James P. Johnson which originated in the Broadway show Runnin' Wild[1] and became one of the most popular hits of the decade. Runnin' Wild ran from 29 October 1923, through 28 June 1924.[1] The peak year for the Charleston as a dance by the public was mid-1926 to 1927.

Charleston can be danced solo, or with a partner. Its simple, flexible basic step makes it easy to concentrate on styling, improvisation and musicality.

Whichever style of Charleston one chooses, whether dancing alone, with a partner, or in groups, the basic step resembles the natural movement of walking, though it is usually performed in place. The arms swing forward and backwards, with the right arm coming forward as the left leg 'steps' forward, and then moving back as the opposite arm/leg begin their forwards movement. Toes are not pointed, but feet usually form a right angle with the leg at the ankle. Arms are usually extended from the shoulder, either with straight lines, or more frequently with bent elbows and hands at right angles from the wrist (characteristics of many African dances). Styling varies with each Charleston type from this point.[10]







and


e9LxSxa.jpg
 

IllmaticDelta

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How about we go straight to the words of the musician themselves. Bo diddley himself claims that the he got the inspiration for the beat from listening to gospel music at the church. Red Saunders said he heard the beat from a children's song(hambone). James P Johnson Said he first heard it from dock workers from South Carolina in NY. NONE of them attest to a cuban origin of the rhythm, because it has since the time of slavery been apart of the african-american musical tradition in the form of the juba dance as a way to compensate for the ban on drums throughout the american colonies. It's an AFRICAN originated rhythm that made it's way to the US via the transatlantic slave trade. It has nothing to do with the cuban clave or habenera other than sharing a common african origin.


facts, see my post here

Always thought this came from Africa or Caribbean ...actually it was New Orleans

the habanera/clave beat is/was already in afram music because it came from africa. Jelly called the spanish tinge because he associated with "spanish" (in this case, Cubans) people. Afro-Cubans are the only people who base ALL their music on/in around the clave, whereas Aframs only used that feel in certain songs/situations like the ring shout or fife and drum
 

K.O.N.Y

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I checked it out. It really has no correlation to HipHop. HipHop as a given name to a movement happened in NYC but the actual elements were pretty much born outside of NYC except Disco sound systems.


funk = was born in the south
rapping (syncopated rhyming) = was born in the south
early bboy = came from jazz dancing, born in the south
graffiti = born in philadelphia


The first bubblings of HipHop pretty much was void of any direct Puerto Rican in the realm of music/dance, They came later on





even the early ricans in hiphop attest to this





Ruby Dee of The Jr



.
.



ihTMIZy.jpg


............puerto ricans just so happen to be the first non-blacks to be invited into the culture but they CLEARLY weren't there from the start or are originators to the foundations of hiphop.

mr wiggles basically admits that ricans were like 2nd and 3rd generation bboys


I go to an old school barbershop out here in the bronx. I see alot of the original bboys every two weeks when i get my cut and chop up game with them. They all say latinos came way after them:mjlol:
 
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