ALL TIME....THE HEART BREAK KID SHAWN MICHAELS...or the MACHO MAN RANDY SAVAGE...REAL simple

[GoddamnyamanProf]

Whoa..Warrior wasn't random. They definitely were into him more than they ever were into Brett and Michaels if comparing primes. Not even fair really. Shawn and Bret are two of the worst company leasing stars in history. That's why Austin had to happen...to save sh!t from their disasters.

You can put those criticisms on Bret and Shawn and thats fine but the business side of things encapsulates a lot more factors and variables that led to those results on the business side of things, and frankly I dont care. The environment of the business was very different just the few short years between when Warrior was on top and when Shawn and Bret were. Warrior was random as in he was another bodybuilder Vince drooled over and wanted to push to the top, so he did. Hellwig never really understood or cared about the ins-and-outs, culture or history of professional wrestling, and it showed in his work. Again, being huge and running around screaming was enough for that era. It worked. Right guy, right place, right time. But does he stack up next to the long list of supremely talented greats in history? No, not hardly. You wont find a list w/ Warrior ranked ahead of Hart and Michaels.

 

[Kill Dat Noize]

Michaels vs Warrior is a tough one for me. I think in the case of the Warrior his longevity is a gift and a curse.

He couldn't keep that run going forever...he just didn't have great skills out there. He wasn't that great on the mic, just spitting nonsense...and he sucked in the ring. He was on top of the world when he was getting his push though and Hogan HAD to lose to him...that's how popular Warrior was at his peak.

Warrior = Better Peak
Michaels = Unquestionably the better career and impact overall IMO

thank you. my point exactly. this is what i mean when i say kayfabe matters. warrior is the only person that can claim he beat hogan in his prime. that in itself puts him in the discussion, regardless of if he only had a 2-3 year run on top.

but you lost me with the "he spit nonsense" on the mic. when you chop his shyt down he wasn't on any kind of a different tip than anyone else from that era. hogan and savage were also famous for going on crazy tangents but it seems only warrior is the one that gets flack for it, and i believe that DVD and the years and years of people dragging his name through the mud play a big part in that.

warrior is one of the greatest performers of all time period. on the mic, in the ring, whatever. he made you care. he made you believe. who cares if he only had a few go to moves. like kevin nash famously said, "nolan ryan sure did throw a lot of fastballs..."

 

[The G.O.D II]

Nah breh, you trippin. The nWo still holds weight YEARS after its been gone. Hogan joining the nWo is the single most memorable moment in wrestling HISTORY. That push from Bash at the beach to Starrcade 1997 was INCREDIBLE. It might NEVER be matched

True. But if I go up to a random on the street and say suck it/chop crotch, ppl will automatically know I am doing DX from when the watch WWF in 98-99. If I throw up the NWO sign, chances are they may not no what I am doing and I may get shot for throwing up gang signs

 

[R=G]

No matter how u sugarcoat...more people bought tickets to see Warrior than Bret. Michaels isn't even in the discussion. He was lesser than Miz...JBL level. He was a nobody. Warrior was put back in those big spots because fans wanted it. Bret was all that was left and only got that spot after Hogan.

 

[Kill Dat Noize]

You can put those criticisms on Bret and Shawn and thats fine but the business side of things encapsulates a lot more factors and variables that led to those results on the business side of things, and frankly I dont care. The environment of the business was very different just the few short years between when Warrior was on top and when Shawn and Bret were. Warrior was random as in he was another bodybuilder Vince drooled over and wanted to push to the top, so he did. Hellwig never really understood or cared about the ins-and-outs, culture or history of professional wrestling, and it showed in his work. Again, being huge and running around screaming was enough for that era. It worked. Right guy, right place, right time. But does he stack up next to the long list of supremely talented greats in history? No, not hardly. You wont find a list w/ Warrior ranked ahead of Hart and Michaels.

so if warrior was just the "right guy at the right time"... then what were bret and shawn? right guys, wrong time? wrong guys, wrong time?

so basically everything warrior achieved you chalk up to blind luck, but when it comes to what bret and shawn COULDN'T achieve... it's because they were just super unlucky.

god forbid anyone is responsible for their own success.

not surprised you wouldn't get behind a character like warrior, someone who was supremely confident in his ability and didn't stop at nothing to face and overcome every obstacle and every challenge that was put in his way. you WOULD back a crybaby whiner like shawn michaels who cried when he didn't get his way and blamed other people for his own failings.

once again proving that one's kayfabe persona isn't much of a far cry from their real one.

 

[GoddamnyamanProf]

so if warrior was just the "right guy at the right time"... then what were bret and shawn? right guys, wrong time? wrong guys, wrong time?

so basically everything warrior achieved you chalk up to blind luck, but when it comes to what bret and shawn COULDN'T achieve... it's because they were just super unlucky.

god forbid anyone is responsible for their own success.

not surprised you wouldn't get behind a character like warrior, someone who was supremely confident in his ability and didn't stop at nothing to face and overcome every obstacle and every challenge that was put in his way. you WOULD back a crybaby whiner like shawn michaels who cried when he didn't get his way and blamed other people for his own failings.

once again proving that one's kayfabe persona isn't much of a far cry from their real one.

Lol thats a lot of strawman arguments you just set up for yourself there. I didnt say anything about luck. I said there were a lot of factors that led to the different environments in the WWF between the late 80's era and the mid 90's era. Im not interested in getting into them because its a seperate discussion and I'd rather talk about the artistic merit of a great film than what caused it to make its box office figures in theaters.

A) Im not even a Shawn Michaels guy and Ive been mostly critical of him on this board. B) Can you try, for even a second, to compare the talent Warrior had to the talent Michaels had, as a professional wrestler? No, thats a joke.

 

[Kill Dat Noize]

A) Im not even a Shawn Michaels guy and Ive been mostly critical of him on this board. B) Can you try, for even a second, to compare the talent Warrior had to the talent Michaels had, as a professional wrestler? No, thats a joke.

it depends on how one looks at a great wrestler.

to me warrior was a more interesting, more entertaining character. he had more of an aura. more of a presence. and i would rather watch his biggest matches than shawn's biggest matches. there was more at stake.

shawn michaels had a wider variety of wrestling styles and was more acrobatic in the ring, and he was more edgy and provocative. that's about it.

so yea, i think warrior was the greater of the 2.

 

[Wacky D]

some will disagree i'm sure.

is the gap between the two in the ring big?
is the difference between them on the mic that signifigant?
is the peak of Macho Madness as high or higher than the peak of DX and the longevity of HBK?
Does Mania III and IV eclipse Mania XIX, XXV and XXVI?

there are questions to be answered

- savage has better matches.
- significant gap on the mic - yes.
- macho madness takes a giant dump-dump on dx/hbk.
- savage is the real mr wrestlemania

 

[GoddamnyamanProf]

it depends on how one looks at a great wrestler.

to me warrior was a more interesting, more entertaining character. he had more of an aura. more of a presence. and i would rather watch his biggest matches than shawn's biggest matches. there was more at stake.

shawn michaels had a wider variety of wrestling styles and was more acrobatic in the ring, and he was more edgy and provocative. that's about it.

so yea, i think warrior was the greater of the 2.

Thats fine but you'll be hard pressed to find anyone that agrees with you. "Aura", "more of a presence"...you've resorted to these descritpions in the past discussing other guys you love. They're intangible terms that don't really mean anything. Certainly not a substitute for actual talent. But when you base your opinions on kayfabe storylines I guess you can just make up whatever.

 

[Kill Dat Noize]

Thats fine but you'll be hard pressed to find anyone that agrees with you. "Aura", "more of a presence"...you've resorted to these descritpions in the past discussing other guys you love. They're intangible terms that don't really mean anything. Certainly not a substitute for actual talent. But when you base your opinions on kayfabe storylines I guess you can just make up whatever.

obviously that's NOT the case considering more people paid to see warrior wrestle than they did shawn, but if you wanna keep eatin that hype the wwe keeps feedin everyone about shawn, that's fine with me.

and honestly i don't even give a shyt what the majority opinion is. i'd rather beat to the sound of my own drum, like warrior did.

i take it you base your opinions and preferences on more "tangible" items? like other people's lists?

 

[Wacky D]

saying that the warrior is better than hbk is no different than saying that hulk hogan is better than ric flair.

only difference is people have been conditioned to chitting on the warrior.

same people that brush off the warrior will turn around and watch a john cena/randy orton/batista/edge/etc match with a serious face.

 

[GoddamnyamanProf]

obviously that's NOT the case considering more people paid to see warrior wrestle than they did shawn, but if you wanna keep eatin that hype the wwe keeps feedin everyone about shawn, that's fine with me.

and honestly i don't even give a shyt what the majority opinion is. i'd rather beat to the sound of my own drum, like warrior did.

i take it you base your opinions and preferences on more "tangible" items? like other people's lists?

saying that the warrior is better than hbk is no different than saying that hulk hogan is better than ric flair.

only difference is people have been conditioned to chitting on the warrior.

same people that brush off the warrior will turn around and watch a john cena/randy orton/batista/edge/etc match with a serious face.

No, I base my opinions on what I see and know to be true. Theres guys WWE pushes to the moon that I know are not great and vice versa, so their agenda has no effect on me.

Some opinions are so widely held and regarded as common sense that they become borderline fact. Is there someone in the world that considers Boy Meets World a better show than Breaking Bad? Im sure there is. Are you gonna find a lot of people that agree? No. Because there are a number of universal qualities that fans will agree on that all combine and make something good or not so good, and the vast majority will be in agreement when the debate is over two subjects with such vast differences. Furthermore, anyone that is of the minority opinion is probably the result of that person putting a greater emphasis on different qualities or other factors in the first place.

So it is w/ the Michaels vs Warrior comparison.

 

[Kill Dat Noize]

No, I base my opinions on what I see and know to be true. Some opinions are so widely held and regarded as common sense that they become borderline fact. Is there someone in the world that considers Boy Meets World a better show than Breaking Bad? Im sure there is. Are you gonna find a lot of people that agree? No. Because there are a number of universal qualities that fans will agree on that all make something good or not so good, and the vast majority will be in agreement when the debate is over two subjects with such vast differences. Furthermore, anyone that is of the minority opinion is probably the result of that person putting a greater emphasis on different qualities or other factors in the first place.

So it is w/ the Michaels vs Warrior comparison.

what are you basing this on?

 

[Kill Dat Noize]

and btw you keep arguing that majority opinion favors shawn but then why do the numbers state otherwise?

what am i missing here?

 

[Wacky D]

I dig both cats but Randy Savage got this.

There's just too much of his overall style present in HBK's work for me to put Shawn over him. Shawn was smart to walk when he did tho, he was still better than most of his peers when he bounced. I wasn't watching TNA in the early days so I didn't have to endure watching Randy's career end how it did live(I wish I hadn't gone back and watched his last few matches there because it was sad to see such a great on that note) Randy was in the wrong company during the late 90's

I can't put many above Randy at his best. ..dude was damn near a perfect wrestler IMO

chit on every company not named wwf/wwe brehs.

how was randy in the wrong company in the late '90s?

he won feud of the year in all of wrestling, world titles, classic matches, played a pivotal role in arguably the goat stable, time warner money, etc.

meanwhile, vince wanted him to just be an announcer.

Okay gotcha, I thought you were saying those matches you mentioned were their Mania GOATness nominations
How about the fact that HBK had consensus 5-star MOTYs at WrestleManias 16 years apart. That's like if Savage had a bona fide classic match at WrestleMania 19 when in reality, Randy hadn't had a classic in 10+ years by then

randy savage had no classics between 1993-2003?

you obviously werent around in the '90s dog.

and savage was big before he even went to the wwf, and after he left. thats a ton of longevity that you left un-accounted for. and keep in mind, hes not a middleweight that took years off from the ring like shawn michaels.