ALL TIME....THE HEART BREAK KID SHAWN MICHAELS...or the MACHO MAN RANDY SAVAGE...REAL simple

[Kill Dat Noize]

I didn't say Vince could make just any old random dude into a mainstream star. Warrior was the right guy at the right place at the right time. Just like Vanilla Ice was the right guy, right place, right time to sell 7 million albums. Does the fact that the music industry can't repeat the trick to create another Vanilla Ice in a different era mean that we should re-evaluate his legacy and conclude that, actually, he must just have been greater than any rapper who hasn't achieve that level of mainstream success?

warrior is not a vanilla ice situation.

vanilla ice stopped selling records cause there was no longer a demand for his music. like you said he was the right guy at the right time and got real lucky, but didn't have the talent to keep the audience he had built.

that didn't happen to warrior. he went out on top. the business didn't spit him out, he left on his own. when he split after summerslam 91 he was still at worst the 2nd biggest wrestling superstar in the world, and when he came back the next year at wrestlemania 8 he was STILL at worst the 2nd biggest wrestling superstar in the world. nothing changed.

i can't speak on warrior's return in 96 cause i didn't witness it live, but at the very least it looks like he was met by the fans with open arms. as for his return again 2 years later on nitro which i DID see live, the fans roared and chanted his name. once again he was met with open arms. and lastly you saw how well he was received when he came back for the HOF. the guy was widely loved and celebrated. a true legend.

don't think a flash in the pan here one day gone the next vanilla ice type fakester woulda got that kind of reaction. and mind you this has been WITHOUT the wwe hype machine on his side the last 25 years to remind everyone of his accomplishments.

 

[The G.O.D II]

i know exactly what you are saying but yes i am sorry, i would still rather "cling" to warrior's short albeit godly untouchable run than shawn's longer and more plentiful one.

shawn got time on his side and more memorable moments, but to me warrior has the greater and more significant ones. and had warrior never injured his relationship with the mcmahons, i'm sure those moments would have been more celebrated over the years instead of being largely ignored and forgotten. his intercontinental run after beating honky tonk, his feud with rick rude, him beating hulk hogan, his feud and match with randy savage... these were some of the most watched and most legendary moments in the history of wrestling.

millions of people remember ultimate warrior beating hulk hogan for the title, the greatest the sport had ever seen up until that point. that first image of him eating a clean 3 count is iconic and unforgettable, as is that lasting image of warrior hoisting both titles in celebration amidst the fireworks.

shawn doesn't have THIS.

millions of people remember THIS.

i cannot tell you what most people believe shawn's single defining moments is, but i can tell you there is a solid chance that not a lot of people remember seeing it live.

I'm going to ask you one more time if you are ready to get out of mark fan boy mode? Do you accept it?

 

[Kill Dat Noize]

I'm going to ask you one more time if you are ready to get out of mark fan boy mode? Do you accept it?

everything I say you refute it. I state my opinion you refute it. I state facts using numbers you refute it. So obviously it doesn't matter what I say because anytime I say something in favor of warrior over shawn you just bow out and call me a mark fanboy.

So if you're gonna ignore my opinion AND ignore the facts, then I'm not sure why you feel the need to go on. Would it be correct of me to presume you of being an hbk fanboy?

 

[Liquid]

I saw this thread on Friday and could not make a decision until today.

It's definitely savage and if you want to break it down he was a bigger icon than Michaels ever was. You see, HBK is definitely in GOAT contention, but Savage outside of Hogan, Austin, Rock, Cena, and Ric Flair was the biggest outside of the sport itself. Hell, I'd argue if Hogan was not THE icon, Savage would probably be looked upon as the #1 GOAT of all time as the sport started to explode.

SNAP INTO A SLIM JIM OOOOOO YEAH!

 

[R=G]

Greatest isnt just most over. And even if it was, its not like Warrior was over for decades like other guys. By your criteria Jim Duggan should be one of the goats. Warrior had a very short run where they pegged him to take over for Hogan and he mostly just copied Hogan's schtick.

Most people agree that mic work and ring work are the two basic qualities that constitute a talented wrestler. For the vast majority of Warrior promos, the most complimentary thing you could say was they were so bad they were good, like a cheesy B-movie that doesnt make sense but is so over the top that its enjoyable. And in the ring, he flat out couldnt work. Couldnt wrestle his way out of a wet paper bag.

Macho, for instance, was a larger than life personality that was also an awesome wrestler and had a great understanding of the business. Warrior was an over the top character, but ultimately just a random roided guy they pushed to the the top. People that have fond memories of that period might include him somewhere in the top 50 based on nostalgia but when you go back and look and compare him to the supreme talents in the history of the business, match for match, promo for promo, theres no way you can justify putting him anywhere near the top 10.

Whoa..Warrior wasn't random. They definitely were into him more than they ever were into Bret and Michaels if comparing primes. Not even fair really. Shawn and Bret are two of the worst company leasing stars in history. That's why Austin had to happen...to save sh!t from their disasters.

 

[Wacky D]

False. Multitude of factors went into WWF down period. General disinterest in the product long before they were top. Mcmahon steriod trial. His foolish BWF shyt. And lets be honest, NWO was only hufe in wrestling circles. They weren't huge transcedent stars like Rock, DX, SCSA in terms of mainstream exposure. And thats more on WCW imcompetence. But yes, without no screwjob there is no Mcmahon, thus no huge heel for Austin and no record breaking PPV buys, house shows, etc. No Michaels advocating edgier product and being obnoxuis, no attitude era. Facts. Not fan boy reminiscing from childhood days

lol @ the NWO only being huge in wrestling circles. cmon son. NWO still rings bells today amongst non-wrestling heads. i think youre getting them confused with their knockoffs DX. cuz nobody cared about DX dog. theyre not mainstream transcendent stars. i dont know where you got that from.

bret winning the title predates all of this stuff actually, aside from the WBF. not saying that bret chased the viewers away. moreso saying that when the hogan/warrior regime was gone and they sat savage, it was a wrap. bret/hbk/taker & them, they just didnt have IT. they had to bring the warrior back to really get chit poppin again, but he fell out with vince shortly after. they didnt get back on the ball til austin & rock rose to the top. those are real blockbuster names.

youre trying to give bret/hbk credit by coincidences that dont even exist.

evil mcmahon was just the wwf's version of eric bischoff.

vince was yelling "attitude era" darn near a year before the screwjob.

 

[Liquid]

False. Multitude of factors went into WWF down period. General disinterest in the product long before they were top. Mcmahon steriod trial. His foolish BWF shyt. And lets be honest, NWO was only hufe in wrestling circles. They weren't huge transcedent stars like Rock, DX, SCSA in terms of mainstream exposure. And thats more on WCW imcompetence. But yes, without no screwjob there is no Mcmahon, thus no huge heel for Austin and no record breaking PPV buys, house shows, etc. No Michaels advocating edgier product and being obnoxious, no attitude era. Facts. Not fan boy reminiscing from childhood days

Are you REALLY trying to say that DX was on the level of the muthafukking nWo?

 

[The G.O.D II]

everything I say you refute it. I state my opinion you refute it. I state facts using numbers you refute it. So obviously it doesn't matter what I say because anytime I say something in favor of warrior over shawn you just bow out and call me a mark fanboy.

So if you're gonna ignore my opinion AND ignore the facts, then I'm not sure why you feel the need to go on. Would it be correct of me to presume you of being an hbk fanboy?

But see thats the problem, its just opinion when I am stating facts the Hart/Michaels career is better then Warriors. You just simply go to moments, hypothesis about if Warrior would have stayed, Kayfabe shyt about his promo. You aren't being releastic. I am a Michaels fan boy no doubt. And I fully admit he didn't draw well on top. But Warrior is not over Shawn in any capacity. Same with Bret(maybe promo wise) Its just a ridiculous notion

 

[Kill Dat Noize]

People actin like warrior got some undeserved monster push out of nowhere, as if he didn't prove himself for 2 years in the midcard and outpop every face on the card outside of hogan.

You could argue warrior was just as over during his IC title reign than bret and shawn were doing their WORLD title reigns.

 

[Kill Dat Noize]

Remember when LeBron joined the heat how espn and all them were comparing it to Shawn and DX?

That was awesome.

 

[Liquid]

Michaels vs Warrior is a tough one for me. I think in the case of the Warrior his longevity is a gift and a curse.

He couldn't keep that run going forever...he just didn't have great skills out there. He wasn't that great on the mic, just spitting nonsense...and he sucked in the ring. He was on top of the world when he was getting his push though and Hogan HAD to lose to him...that's how popular Warrior was at his peak.

Warrior = Better Peak
Michaels = Unquestionably the better career and impact overall IMO

 

[The G.O.D II]

Are you REALLY trying to say that DX was on the level of the muthafukking nWo?

In wrestling circles no. To the casual mainstream who tuned in droves each week, yes

 

[mrken12]

I never was an HBK fan and always considered him an a$$hole. So I'm picking Savage.

Michaels sabotaged the momentum of others and was just unprofessional overall.

 

[Kill Dat Noize]

But see thats the problem, its just opinion when I am stating facts the Hart/Michaels career is better then Warriors. You just simply go to moments, hypothesis about if Warrior would have stayed, Kayfabe shyt about his promo. You aren't being releastic. I am a Michaels fan boy no doubt. And I fully admit he didn't draw well on top. But Warrior is not over Shawn in any capacity. Same with Bret(maybe promo wise) Its just a ridiculous notion

it's not a ridiculous notion. to someone that values peak over longevity, then warrior is the hands down choice. if you're someone that values longevity over peak, then shawn is the hands down choice.

when you ask me who was BETTER, i look to their peaks. warrior to me was BETTER than shawn.

 

[Liquid]

In wrestling circles no. To the casual mainstream who tuned in droves each week, yes

Nah breh, you trippin. The nWo still holds weight YEARS after its been gone. Hogan joining the nWo is the single most memorable moment in wrestling HISTORY. That push from Bash at the beach to Starrcade 1997 was INCREDIBLE. It might NEVER be matched