Alexandria Ocasio Cortez - "Not All Dems Are The Same"

[HellRell804]

Calling it poor word choice is fine by me, my complaint is that it's that the comments you've quoted are not dictatorial in nature. If the POTUS said "no one is fixing the problem or proposing solutions, so I'm putting forward a solution" it would depend on the circumstances and context. I'm pretty certain Obama used Congressional inaction on immigration as a point for why he pushed the DREAM Act, which I understood given the circumstances for example.



Maybe that's been your discussion with others, I came in to laugh at the dictator characterization because it's a blatant reach. That's it. But if you want to talk about how to fund proposals in the GND, I'd say that first we need to see what specific legislation gets crafted to target each goal mentioned within. I see the GND as a set of goals, but the actual legislation that comes up to reach those will impact the prices for each aspect and some goals may be more attainable than others. It's the road map, step one, not the whole journey. However, I would point to this really useful David Pakman clip to show a bunch of examples of proposals from Dems to pay for their policy ideas in general. That's just to clarify here, that progressives do have "pay for it" suggestions in general when they make policy proposals.





You just said it yourself "primary colleagues who step out of line." We (Progressives) are pushing to gain control via elections and systemic processes. That's not how a dictator or absolute power works. That is poor word choice. Sparking change through collective action and electorally is kinda the opposite.



The threat of losing control to the Republicans brings me back to why it's ridiculous to characterize these Dems as dictators. They're not stealing power or changing rules to enshrine it. They are using elections and the systemic avenues that exist in a democracy to enact change. If their strategy is poor or the majority of Americans don't agree with the direction they go in, then they'll be voted out. That was my whole point and I believe that's exactly what AOC was getting at with her challenge to critics.

Once again, for a public servant to use that language is unacceptable. You're not the boss of anything. Not even this proposal. You introduced it, but it's going to take the collaboration of many people on both sides to make it possible. I would expect a politician to know that and use better wording even if they didn't mean it.

I dont think you've researched how dictatorships or authoritarian governments start. It's not a quick grab for power followed by absolute rule, that would be a military coup. Authoritarians are democratically elected. Then they slowly start to expand government and incrementally abuse power until one day they have enough power to totally crush their opponents and dissenters.

I'm not saying leftist are dictators. I'm saying that they're on the road to becoming them, and it starts with large scale expansion of the role of government.

 

[Secure Da Bag]

We're just arguing in circles

We aren't having the same argument. We'll agree to continuing post.

 

[Duppy]

I dont think you've researched how dictatorships or authoritarian governments start. It's not a quick grab for power followed by absolute rule, that would be a military coup. Authoritarians are democratically elected. Then they slowly start to expand government and incrementally abuse power until one day they have enough power to totally crush their opponents and dissenters.

I'm not saying leftist are dictators. I'm saying that they're on the road to becoming them, and it starts with large scale expansion of the role of government.

This really isn't the case historically though Neither the Nazis or the Italian Fascists were elected into their positions of power, Hitler was appointed Chancellor and only ever won like 30% of the vote while in Italy Mussolini's electoral alliance only won 19.1% of the vote in 1921 and proceeded to march to Rome with his crew leading to the king transferring power to the fascist party without the need to win an election.

Other authoritarian governments generally attained their absolute levels of power through a variety of coups (Iran, Ba'athist Syria, Ba'athist Iraq, Pinochet in Chile, the Greek military junta, the Brazilian military junta, Thomas Sankara in Burkina Faso etc.) or through winning a war (the Communists in Yugoslavia, the Communists in Cuba, the Communists in China, DPRK, the South Korean dictatorship etc etc.)

 

[storyteller]

Once again, for a public servant to use that language is unacceptable. You're not the boss of anything. Not even this proposal. You introduced it, but it's going to take the collaboration of many people on both sides to make it possible. I would expect a politician to know that and use better wording even if they didn't mean it.

The only way to panic about that statement is to ignore the context of it.

I dont think you've researched how dictatorships or authoritarian governments start. It's not a quick grab for power followed by absolute rule, that would be a military coup. Authoritarians are democratically elected. Then they slowly start to expand government and incrementally abuse power until one day they have enough power to totally crush their opponents and dissenters.

I'm not saying leftist are dictators. I'm saying that they're on the road to becoming them, and it starts with large scale expansion of the role of government.

If being democratically elected is step one to becoming a dictator then everybody in office qualifies. So let's skip to the part that actually moves from being an elected leader to being a dictator. What have they done that you see as an abuse of power that could escalate?

P.S. Expanding the role of government is not sufficient either, that's far too broad. Keep it to potential abuses.

 

[HellRell804]

This really isn't the case historically though Neither the Nazis or the Italian Fascists were elected into their positions of power, Hitler was appointed Chancellor and only ever won like 30% of the vote while in Italy Mussolini's electoral alliance only won 19.1% of the vote in 1921 and proceeded to march to Rome with his crew leading to the king transferring power to the fascist party without the need to win an election.

Other authoritarian governments generally attained their absolute levels of power through a variety of coups (Iran, Ba'athist Syria, Ba'athist Iraq, Pinochet in Chile, the Greek military junta, the Brazilian military junta, Thomas Sankara in Burkina Faso etc.) or through winning a war (the Communists in Yugoslavia, the Communists in Cuba, the Communists in China, DPRK, the South Korean dictatorship etc etc.)

Hitler wasn't elected, but Paul von Hindenburg was, and he appointed Hitler to chancellor.

I explained the difference between a sudden seizure of power and the slow expansion into authoritarianism.

The only way to panic about that statement is to ignore the context of it.



If being democratically elected is step one to becoming a dictator then everybody in office qualifies. So let's skip to the part that actually moves from being an elected leader to being a dictator. What have they done that you see as an abuse of power that could escalate?

P.S. Expanding the role of government is not sufficient either, that's far too broad. Keep it to potential abuses.

Total government takeover of healthcare and education. Right now it sounds hood, but in the future all it could take is to be labeled as a "racist" or "sexist" or whatever is bad at the time and smyou're barred from participating in the economy or going to college or accessing healthcare.

And this isnt just me creating worry, this type of governmental overreach is the basis of books like 1984, A brave new World, and Farenheit 451.

An all controlling government with the power to quietly crush dissent.

The social credit score in China also worries me as I've seen the rise in the "purity tests" the left likes to engage in before the acknowledge people and ideas

 

[Duppy]

Hitler wasn't elected, but Paul von Hindenburg was, and he appointed Hitler to chancellor.

Meaning the Nazis were never actually elected into power but instead used this appointment as a way to consolidate all power and purge political oppodents, starting with the communists and advancing to everyone else afterwards.

I explained the difference between a sudden seizure of power and the slow expansion into authoritarianism.

Your post seemed to imply that most authoritarian governments come into power through some sort of slippery slope, I merely pointed to about a dozen examples of that not being the case. Thankfully for your fears, AOC is just an ordinary social democrat and not a socialist, going as far as to claim that "Democratic socialism" and capitalism can co-exist in an interview. She's not too interested in shaking up the status quo of capitalism, just seeks to make it less brutal to the lower class masses.

As for the rest of your post, 1984 was a critique of Stalinism written by a man who was staunchly dedicated to socialism for the latter half of his life and even went as far as to travel to Spain to fight in the civil war on the side of the anarchists against the fascists. As for the others, one was written by a man who thought Reagan was the best president of all time and the other one was just a critique I don't have much context for I suppose.

China also hasn't been socialist since the 1980s, Deng's reforms made sure of that. Just state capitalism under the excuse of "We're just making enough money to transfer to communism, just need a bit more "

 

[HellRell804]

Meaning the Nazis were never actually elected into power but instead used this appointment as a way to consolidate all power and purge political oppodents, starting with the communists and advancing to everyone else afterwards.



Your post seemed to imply that most authoritarian governments come into power through some sort of slippery slope, I merely pointed to about a dozen examples of that not being the case. Thankfully for your fears, AOC is just an ordinary social democrat and not a socialist, going as far as to claim that "Democratic socialism" and capitalism can co-exist in an interview. She's not too interested in shaking up the status quo of capitalism, just seeks to make it less brutal to the lower class masses.

As for the rest of your post, 1984 was a critique of Stalinism written by a man who was staunchly dedicated to socialism for the latter half of his life and even went as far as to travel to Spain to fight in the civil war on the side of the anarchists against the fascists. As for the others, one was written by a man who thought Reagan was the best president of all time and the other one was just a critique I don't have much context for I suppose.

China also hasn't been socialist since the 1980s, Deng's reforms made sure of that. Just state capitalism under the excuse of "We're just making enough money to transfer to communism, just need a bit more "

See this is something that bothers me. I say I'm worried about this new breed of politicians and the people they represent that seem to love infringing on individuals rights and freedoms as long as they have the wrong label or politics. This troubles me, not because I'm scared of them flexing the lil power they already have (outrage mobs doxing people, getting them fired, banned from speaking at events) I'm scared of that mentality if these people were to obtain more power, like being in control of programs that feed people, or healthcare, or education

That's a valid fear. And one most people can understand.

But when people express this fear, its "How can you be scared of AOC? She's just one little Congresswoman, why are you scared of her?" Then post stupid pictures of her smiling and videos of her dancing.

Its disingenuous. I'm not even really worried about AOC, with her lack of tact and inability to play the game, I got her lasting 1, 2 terms max.

 

[storyteller]

Total government takeover of healthcare and education. Right now it sounds hood, but in the future all it could take is to be labeled as a "racist" or "sexist" or whatever is bad at the time and smyou're barred from participating in the economy or going to college or accessing healthcare.

And this isnt just me creating worry, this type of governmental overreach is the basis of books like 1984, A brave new World, and Farenheit 451.

An all controlling government with the power to quietly crush dissent.

The social credit score in China also worries me as I've seen the rise in the "purity tests" the left likes to engage in before the acknowledge people and ideas

You realize there are plenty of countries providing these suggestions that haven't fallen into dictatorships right? We're not gonna have the government funding public college (like they do public schools up to reaching that point) and suddenly fall into a V for Vendetta disaster breh. The slippery slope to the Thunderdome doesn't start with a universal healthcare program that mimics the entire rest of the industrialized world.

 

[Eternal Tecate]

So you think it's just that easy to tell a single mom or struggling family that their 2500 to 3000 dollar bucket they use to get back and forth to work and take their children where they need to go needs to be replaced with a $40,000 tesla.

Or that the small farmers that supply farmers markets and local coops that they need to ditch that old reliable truck they been using for years and get a $100,000 electric vehicle.

And you say that the jobs being created will push the economy to new heights but the amount of money needed for this program will be astronomical. So how will "taxing the rich" bring in these additional trillions of dollars when most estimates say the 70% tax rate will generate a few billion at best (and that's if rich people don't duck the taxes)

If the resources currently used to produce gas cars were all shifted towards mass producing electric cars then the electric cars would not cost 40k.

 

[Eternal Tecate]

@HellRell804 is an agent

 

[Eternal Tecate]

@HellRell804 go back to tigerdroppings

 

[Kenny West]

See this is something that bothers me. I say I'm worried about this new breed of politicians and the people they represent that seem to love infringing on individuals rights and freedoms as long as they have the wrong label or politics. This troubles me, not because I'm scared of them flexing the lil power they already have (outrage mobs doxing people, getting them fired, banned from speaking at events) I'm scared of that mentality if these people were to obtain more power, like being in control of programs that feed people, or healthcare, or education

That's a valid fear. And one most people can understand.

But when people express this fear, its "How can you be scared of AOC? She's just one little Congresswoman, why are you scared of her?" Then post stupid pictures of her smiling and videos of her dancing.

Its disingenuous. I'm not even really worried about AOC, with her lack of tact and inability to play the game, I got her lasting 1, 2 terms max.

All those type of people are on the right too, especially when it comes to doxxers. I mean SHE's the one getting actual death threats and being targeted by aspiring racist terrorists yet you "scared" of getting yelled at on twitter. yes man this is very disingenuous

All this slippery slope talk is about nothing, I get the word "socialist" triggers the deepest orwellian nightmares in folks but bruh...we got an actual fascist in the white house who hired his friends, family and business partners as white house staff and you daydreaming about a person who wants more local neighborhood representatives in congress seats as a dictator that AOC?

 

[HellRell804]

All those type of people are on the right too, especially when it comes to doxxers. I mean SHE's the one getting actual death threats and being targeted by aspiring racist terrorists yet you "scared" of getting yelled at on twitter. yes man this is very disingenuous

All this slippery slope talk is about nothing, I get the word "socialist" triggers the deepest orwellian nightmares in folks but bruh...we got an actual fascist in the white house who hired his friends, family and business partners as white house staff and you daydreaming about a person who wants more local neighborhood representatives in congress seats as a dictator that AOC?

Breh grow up and think past left and right. This power grab is bad just like Bush and the surveillance state after 911. Dont be so blinded that you allow your team to lay down the framework for your subjugation later. You don't know who'll eventually be wielding that power

 

[HellRell804]

@HellRell804 go back to tigerdroppings

Literally have never heard of you on this site until I said something bad about AOC but I'm the agent

 

[HellRell804]

You realize there are plenty of countries providing these suggestions that haven't fallen into dictatorships right? We're not gonna have the government funding public college (like they do public schools up to reaching that point) and suddenly fall into a V for Vendetta disaster breh. The slippery slope to the Thunderdome doesn't start with a universal healthcare program that mimics the entire rest of the industrialized world.

Those are homogeneous countries with a shared history and culture.

They dont have issues like government approved sterilization, medical experimentation without consent, and purposeful miseducation and mistreatment of marginalized groups