A Song of Ice & Fire by George R.R. Martin: Book Discussion Thread

fact

Fukk you thought it was?
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How you gonna ROFL with a hollow back?
It was a passing reference. Dunk and Egg attended his sister's wedding.
If I recall correctly, he was a crying, whiney, little piece of sh!t, too bad he wasn't born in Astopor chilling in a marketplace, and and unsullied in training coulda got his stripes :youngsabo::ahh::banderas::demonic:
 

dennis roadman

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solsbury hill
since the books are never coming out i've decided to not be upset about it and appreciate the fury that these wonderful stories have induced :ehh:

this thread has me dying :pachaha:

(No Spoilers) GRRM to Dan Simmons in 1981: "If I were really cynical I would start some medieval sword and sorcery thing, say it's a trilogy, then keep writing it for the rest of my life." • /r/asoiaf

and this is even better :dead:

(Spoilers All) D+D=T - a never-before-seen theory • /r/asoiaf

D+D=T and R=T - a never-before-seen parentage theory
Before we begin, take a few moments to ponder what D+D=T could be. If nothing makes sense, don't worry. It'll make 137% perfect sense in a moment.

It all starts somewhere
Here's Martin's big tell: King's Landing has 7 gates. You might think that 7 relates to 7 gods. Or the 7 kingdoms. But what if "the Seven" was invented just to play with us? To mask the elaborate interrelation between ASOIAF and one of the most famous works from the ancient Greek world?

Thebes
Here's a fun fact: the ancients referred to Greek Thebes as "7-gated Thebes." In other words, King's Landing = Thebes. From this humble starting point, we'll eventually arrive at D+D=T, so coat yourself in tinfoil and let's dive down the deepest, darkest rabbit hole.

What's so special about Thebes? Thebes is most famous for being home to Oedipus. The legendary Oedipus killed his father and married his mother. Incest, if you haven't noticed, is a major theme. King's Landing is to incest what Las Vegas is to gambling. But do we have our Oedipus?

Oedipus Rex
There's one clear candidate. His father disowned him from birth (like Oedipus). He's nearly universally hated (like Oedipus). And he kills his father (like Oedipus). Yes, that's right. Tyrion, our favorite dwarf, is destined to shag his mother.

But before we address how that doesn't make any sense, let's quickly flesh out a few similarities between Tyrion and Oedipus.

Tyrion Oedipus
Tyrion has an abnormal gait, waddling to and fro Oedipus - literally meaning "swollen foot" - had his feet bound, which would likely create an abnormal gait
Tyrion saves King's Landing but that doesn't save him from being hated Oedipus saves Thebes but that doesn't save him from being hated
Disowned by father Tywin, who contemplates infanticide Disowned by father Laius, who attempts infanticide
Kills father Tywin Kills father Laius
In broad strokes, Tyrion matches Oedipus - but what about on the most important details?

Joanna Lannister
But isn't Joanna dead? Yes, that does appear to be a kink in the theory. But let's not get bogged down byreality technicalities yet. I plan to resolve the problem of her death unconventionally: Joanna is not Tyrion's real mother.

A womb and birth canal does not make a biological mother. If I take my eggs, get my husband to sperm one up, and implant it in your womb, are you the real mother? No. What we've got with Tyrion is an early example of surrogate pregnancy.

But then who is Tyrion's real mother? Dany. Father? Drogo. D+D=T. You heard it here first, folks. Before we see the ironclad support for such a theory, let's note the remarkable similarities between Dany's child and Tyrion.

Rhaego vs. Tyrion
Dany gives birth to a child that Mirri Maz Duur claims is hideously deformed, half(hu)man and fiendish.

"Monstrous," Mirri Maz Duur finished for him... "Twisted. I drew him forth myself. He was scaled like a lizard, blind, with a stub of a tail and small leather wings like the wings of a bat."

Tyrion can easily be associated with each and every one of Rhaego's characteristics. This association reveals their elaborate interrelation. Tyion, like Rhaego, has been called:

Monstrous and Twisted

"the twisted little monkey demon"

+

"a twisted little monster"

+

"Your head was monstrous huge, we heard, half again the size of your body, and you had been born with thick black hair and a beard besides, an evil eye, and lion's claws. Your teeth were so long you could not close your mouth, and between your legs were a girl's privates as well as a boy's"

Tailed

"you were said to have one, a stiff curly tail like a swine's"

Scaly and Winged

As the child of Dany+Drogo, he's obviously associated with scaly, winged dragons. But even if we momentarily lose all sanity and entertain someone else as the father, like Aerys, then that still associates Tyrion with scales and wings. Two additional associations: (1) as Master of Coin, Tyrion had the King's Scales (under his jurisdiction), and (2) Tyrion's Lannister lion is connected to a scaly lizard through Martin inventing a special fantasy creature the lizard-lion. So far, zero tinfoil.

Surrogate pregnancy
The big question is how we can conclude that surrogacy was involved, considering the tiny problem that Joanna and Dany were never alive at the same time. Thankfully, Mirri Maz Duur has got it covered.

Mirri talks about a reversal, and cycling, of time:

"When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east... Then he will return, and not before."

In other words, before Dany's husband returns, a reversal in time - symbolized by the sun moving in its opposite direction - has to complete. Quaithe, too, has more to say about time travel:

"To go north, you must go south. To reach the west, you must go east. To go forward you must go back"

You must go back... in time. Something from the past needs to come to the future, and something from the future must make its way to the past. That something is Dany's unborn fetus, Rhaego, who Mirri transplants back in time into Joanna's already-occupied womb by using Drogo's soul (Rhaego thus kills/absorbs his biological father). Back in the past, Joanna's genuine fetus (by Tywin/Aerys) isn't delivered and remains dead for years until Mirri blood magics the baby back into the present. Dany delivers the decaying time-capsule.

"When I touched him, the flesh sloughed off the bone, and inside he was full of graveworms and the stink of corruption. He had been dead for years."

Mirri confirms that Joanna's fetus, delivered by Dany, had been dead for years.

Recap
Using Drogo's soul, Mirri transports Rhaego-the-fetus back in time where he's delivered by an already-pregnant Joanna. Joanna's fetus (fathered by Tywin/Aerys) doesn't make it. Collateral blood magic causes this fetus to resemble Rhaego, and it begins to decay. After "being dead for years" Mirri sends it back to the future, and delivers it from Dany's womb. Back in the past, Rhaego gets named Tyrion (R=T). Tyrion lives as a Lannister for over 34 years. Even though he has already killed/absorbed his biological father Drogo, Tyrion kills his adoptive father Tywin for shyts. Tyrion returns to Dany to complete Mirri's prophecy: "then [her husband] will return, and not before." Tyrion marries Dany, his mother. Oedipus gets Rex'd. The world shutters as Tyrion begins to mount it.

A very small man can cast a very large shadow

Predictions
  1. Tyrion kills Hizdahr zo Loraq (because why not at this point?)

  2. Dany and Tyrion marry. Their marriage is first consummated in King's Landing (Thebes)

  3. King's Landing will be leveled to the ground, much like Thebes

  4. Tyrion will fly a dragon because he's the Stallion who Mounts the World

  5. Tyrion becomes King of Westeros

  6. Tyrion will gouge out his eyes (like Oedipus, also fulfilling Mirri's description of Rhaego as blind)
Technical note: the father of Joanna's fetus doesn't matter in the end, since its purpose is to die for years. The father could be moonboy for all I know.

Format: C or C

TLDR: The halfman is the Stallion who Mounts the World. Mirri Maz Duur created a rift in spacetime to do a fetus-swap, making Rhaego and Tyrion the same person, and creating a prophecy where he becomes destined to marry Dany, his mother.
 

The Watcher

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Peepholes
since the books are never coming out i've decided to not be upset about it and appreciate the fury that these wonderful stories have induced :ehh:

this thread has me dying :pachaha:

(No Spoilers) GRRM to Dan Simmons in 1981: "If I were really cynical I would start some medieval sword and sorcery thing, say it's a trilogy, then keep writing it for the rest of my life." • /r/asoiaf

and this is even better :dead:

(Spoilers All) D+D=T - a never-before-seen theory • /r/asoiaf


GRRM needs to go on ahead and hire a ghost-writing helper to finish it up, otherwise, these people are going to end up insane. Jump ahead 20 years and we'll still be finding their crazy theories about how Jon and Tyrion caused Stoneheart because they inadvertently summoned R'hllor at random campfire #3 in AGOT while drinking the same wine that Walder Frey served at the Red Wedding. This works because Tyrion is actually an incest Frey and Jon is actually a miracle Baratheon that Robert conceived and gave birth to using blood magic.
 

dennis roadman

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solsbury hill
GRRM needs to go on ahead and hire a ghost-writing helper to finish it up, otherwise, these people are going to end up insane. Jump ahead 20 years and we'll still be finding their crazy theories about how Jon and Tyrion caused Stoneheart because they inadvertently summoned R'hllor at random campfire #3 in AGOT while drinking the same wine that Walder Frey served at the Red Wedding. This works because Tyrion is actually an incest Frey and Jon is actually a miracle Baratheon that Robert conceived and gave birth to using blood magic.
right, just have someone map it out with him

the first 3 books he had already had planned out, so he was able to write all the details and move a plot.
 
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:lupe:


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