A Song of Ice & Fire by George R.R. Martin: Book Discussion Thread

[Pifferry]

This is nonsense, Renly had the largest and best supplied army of the 5 and had a much better chance of unseating the Lannisters in King's Landing than Stannis. Also there's no vendetta between him and the North so an agreement could have been reached between him and Robb without further bloodshed. Stannis might have been too stubborn for such a thing, especially with Melisandre in the picture.

With Robert dead the scenario that saves the most live would have been Renly on the Iron Throne.

The thing is I don't believe Renly would have been a good enough commander to make it throughout the war and hold the army together and that inevitably he would have lost a lot and they would have splintered off or something.

 

[KatieGotAzzHairs]

The thing is I don't believe Renly would have been a good enough commander to make it throughout the war and hold the army together and that inevitably he would have lost a lot and they would have splintered off or something.

I don't know about show Renly, but book Renly had whole the Reach on his side, and aside from the Florents, the Reach houses stand together. Not only that the Reach is populous (thus full of soldiers) and bountiful (thus full of food to eat and sell), and the Tyrells have plenty of coin. Not to mention the Reach has talented soldiers in the high ranks as well.

In the book the only thing Renly lacks is the money and the navy of the Redwynes because Paxter's kids are being held by Cersei and crew,

Stannis comes from a shythole rock that produces nothing of worth, which is fitting because he's a piece of shyt person who does nothing of worth.

Anyway @fact , I've been eagerly anticipating your downfall and demise for far too long a while. Now I demand you present yourself to me at Bath and Body Works in the Columbia Mall so I may introduce you to the business end of my parasol. Once I've finished flogging you, you will buy me some moonlight path body cream. Body cream not body lotion. The distinction is vital!

 

[storyteller]

What I don't get about book Stannis' motivation to burn Shireen is that he has two hostages with royal blood...There's no need to sacrifice his daughter for blood magic with Asha and Theon on deck and nobody would bat an eye if he sacrificed Theon...so I have a hard time seeing why he would give in and send his own daughter to the fire. I could see Melisandre and his wife pulling some nonsense off behind his back but everything suggested to me that Stannis was still far from giving up his daughter and only heir. Plus, would the northern clans stay loyal to Stannis knowing that anyone with royal blood is fuel for his witch? They wouldn't trust him with a Stark child.

 

[The Watcher]

What I don't get about book Stannis' motivation to burn Shireen is that he has two hostages with royal blood...There's no need to sacrifice his daughter for blood magic with Asha and Theon on deck and nobody would bat an eye if he sacrificed Theon...so I have a hard time seeing why he would give in and send his own daughter to the fire. I could see Melisandre and his wife pulling some nonsense off behind his back but everything suggested to me that Stannis was still far from giving up his daughter and only heir. Plus, would the northern clans stay loyal to Stannis knowing that anyone with royal blood is fuel for his witch? They wouldn't trust him with a Stark child.

My answer is that the Azor Ahai prophecy doesn't say anything about king's blood. It talks specifically about how he killed his wife that he loved to forge Lightbringer. If Stannis gives the order to burn Shireen in the books, it won't have anything to do with king's blood, it'll be him trying to become Azor Ahai by killing his daughter that he loves.

As far as Stannis talking about how Shireen's his heir in the books, he did the same thing in the show with that "Princess Baratheon" scene, but he changed his tune a week later when he thought it was necessary to burn her. Who knows what will happen in TWOW that could spur him to make that decision?

I'm with the Northern clans stuff though, I don't know why they would follow Stannis unless they truly believe he can beat the Others.

 

[storyteller]

My answer is that the Azor Ahai prophecy doesn't say anything about king's blood. It talks specifically about how he killed his wife that he loved to forge Lightbringer. If Stannis gives the order to burn Shireen in the books, it won't have anything to do with king's blood, it'll be him trying to become Azor Ahai by killing his daughter that he loves.

As far as Stannis talking about how Shireen's his heir in the books, he did the same thing in the show with that "Princess Baratheon" scene, but he changed his tune a week later when he thought it was necessary to burn her. Who knows what will happen in TWOW that could spur him to make that decision?

I'm with the Northern clans stuff though, I don't know why they would follow Stannis unless they truly believe he can beat the Others.

I think you may be on to something. That would make a LOT more sense than what the show did imo, I think it would have to be a truly decisive moment for Stannis to consider the sacrifice. Facing off with the Boltons who are locked up with Northern Lords and even the fake Stark isn't there any more to shield them...I think he'd come up with alternatives.

 

[Pifferry]

I don't know about show Renly, but book Renly had whole the Reach on his side, and aside from the Florents, the Reach houses stand together. Not only that the Reach is populous (thus full of soldiers) and bountiful (thus full of food to eat and sell), and the Tyrells have plenty of coin. Not to mention the Reach has talented soldiers in the high ranks as well.

In the book the only thing Renly lacks is the money and the navy of the Redwynes because Paxter's kids are being held by Cersei and crew,

Stannis comes from a shythole rock that produces nothing of worth, which is fitting because he's a piece of shyt person who does nothing of worth.

Anyway @fact , I've been eagerly anticipating your downfall and demise for far too long a while. Now I demand you present yourself to me at Bath and Body Works in the Columbia Mall so I may introduce you to the business end of my parasol. Once I've finished flogging you, you will buy me some moonlight path body cream. Body cream not body lotion. The distinction is vital!

I don't care about the numbers I still believe he would have failed.

 

[dennis roadman]

Then let's throw the fukking tinfoil all the way on, Ned is a kinslayer for killing Lady, because the Starks are wargs and the wolves are extensions of the kids.
Egg is a kinslayer because of what happened in summer hall, with all likelihood pointing to him doing the same thing as show Stannis, and dunk having to save rhaegar, and rhaegar is a kinslayer for setting in motion the whole fukking war and getting his whole fam killed, he may not have held the sword, but he is still responsible

say breh, sounds like the fury is all yours

 

[Chris Cool]

a brehs, so who sent jon the pink letter?

 

[fact]

I don't know about show Renly, but book Renly had whole the Reach on his side, and aside from the Florents, the Reach houses stand together. Not only that the Reach is populous (thus full of soldiers) and bountiful (thus full of food to eat and sell), and the Tyrells have plenty of coin. Not to mention the Reach has talented soldiers in the high ranks as well.

In the book the only thing Renly lacks is the money and the navy of the Redwynes because Paxter's kids are being held by Cersei and crew,

Stannis comes from a shythole rock that produces nothing of worth, which is fitting because he's a piece of shyt person who does nothing of worth.

Anyway @fact , I've been eagerly anticipating your downfall and demise for far too long a while. Now I demand you present yourself to me at Bath and Body Works in the Columbia Mall so I may introduce you to the business end of my parasol. Once I've finished flogging you, you will buy me some moonlight path body cream. Body cream not body lotion. The distinction is vital!

 

[Arianne Martell]

Remember what Roose Bolton said on the show: That they were prepared for a long siege and that Stannis would run out of supplies in a harsh winter?

He stands no chance without some sort of divine intervention.

and the crows + wildings team to the rescue. Remember he sent Davos to get help.

 

[Arianne Martell]

Sooooo lemme get this straight....

Stannis has:

-withstood a siege @ Storm's End throughout all of Robert's Rebellion to the point where his entire family is starving and eating rats and still would not give in
-took Dragonstone from the last Targaryen forces
-smashed the ENTIRE Iron Fleet in a trap off of Fair Isle and delivered the only L my man Victarion has ever taken
-subdued Great Wyk in Robert's name
-came within a Tyrell sneak attack of gaining the Iron throne
-destroyed the Wildling army despite having 1/5 of their #'s
-liberated Deepwood Motte & united the Northern clans

.....but was completely punked by Ramsay fukking Snow and "20 of his best men" and forced into burning his daughter/becoming a kinslayer?

You lost me showrunners

I'll for sure still watch & enjoy the show but come the fukk on now

The show did a bad job at portraying Stannis' camp demise and hopelesness...weren't they on the brink of cannibalism? I skimmed through Stannis' chapters..they were too boring and I can't stand him.

 

[The_Sheff]

Ok i dont look at too many theories but one i saw floating around a lot was that Melisandra would burn Shireen and end up resurrecting Jon. But if Shireen is already burned how would they resurrect Jon?

 

[The Watcher]

Ok i dont look at too many theories but one i saw floating around a lot was that Melisandra would burn Shireen and end up resurrecting Jon. But if Shireen is already burned how would they resurrect Jon?

Winter is coming breh. The walkers have been shown to do one thing over and over again - resurrect the dead - and they are marching on the wall with a newly replenished dead army.

 

[Greenstrings]

The thing is I don't believe Renly would have been a good enough commander to make it throughout the war and hold the army together and that inevitably he would have lost a lot and they would have splintered off or something.

You misunderstand the dynamic here. They supported him to fulfil the role of a king. He wouldn't have to have been a good commander, there were plenty of those in his employ. Randyll Tarly was one of the greatest military commanders in Westeros, second only to Tywin and he was in Renly's war council. That simply wouldn't have been an issue.

What brought them together and kept them together while he was alive was Renly's charismatic personality. He was well loved, so much so that a huge number of houses were willing to forego what they understood to be correct in the succession of Stannis and support his claim. That is the arguably the most important quality a king can have; the ability to draw disparate forces together to work for his interests a quality that Stannis does not have.

He was easily the best chance at a long lasting peace, there's no disputing this.

 

[The Watcher]

You misunderstand the dynamic here. They supported him to fulfil the role of a king. He wouldn't have to have been a good commander, there were plenty of those in his employ. Randyll Tarly was one of the greatest military commanders in Westeros, second only to Tywin and he was in Renly's war council. That simply wouldn't have been an issue.

What brought them together and kept them together while he was alive was Renly's charismatic personality. He was well loved, so much so that a huge number of houses were willing to forego what they understood to be correct in the succession of Stannis and support his claim. That is the arguably the most important quality a king can have; the ability to draw disparate forces together to work for his interests a quality that Stannis does not have.

He was easily the best chance at a long lasting peace, there's no disputing this.

I'm far from a Renly stan and think he would've fukked up in some big ways, but I do think he was the best chance at peace for the realm. And he was willing to hear Robb out, which would've worked out well if there was no shadow baby/red wedding.