A Song of Ice & Fire by George R.R. Martin: Book Discussion Thread

MidniteJay

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What if I told you that in real life I actually am kind of a Rhaegar stan? :lupe:























SIKE:mjlol:





Howland Reed, Arthur Dayne, Bran The Builder, The Nights King, Ser Baldric the Cunning >>>>> Rhaegar L.
XBv9rAq.png

:scust: @ those inbred fukks coming to Westeros after running Valyria to the ground.
 
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:scust: @ those inbred fukks coming to Westeros after running Valyria to the ground.
But man, think about how much crow I'm setting myself up to have to eat if it turns out that Rhaegar married Lyanna on the Isle of Faces as witnessed by the order of the Green Men? Being directly tied to the old gods like that I'm gonna have to maybe stan him depending on the circumstances.

But thats like 5 years down the road at the soonest before we find that out and the stan wars will end when the show ends so :hula:I'm in the clear
 

KingMalik

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Another thing, I was converted to the Rhaegar - Lyanna - Jon scenerio, which has long been a fan theory, I've always suspected it was too easy tho and expected GRRM to throw a curve in there.

Well my homie put me on game, Its been a long time since I read the source material and I've forgotten so much of the details easily glossed over when enthralled with all the major shyt that goes on. But she hit me with some shyt that seems plausible and can either be backed up by the source or ambiguous at best and some of these theories have made me go back to the drawing board.

Could Rhaegar and Lyanna have fathered Dany? And could Jon have been fathered by Brandon/Ned & Ashara Dayne from Dorne. This would give both Jon and Dany the much lauded Fire and Ice Lineage.

We know Ashara Dayne was fine as fukk, even put Rhaegars dornish wife to shame and had Barrington "broader than broadway" Selmy simped up. She danced with both Stark brothers at the tourney She was "dishonored" at the infamous Harrenhal tourney and someone put a seed in her. Selmy believes she gave birth to a still born girl and committed suicide.
This was before Ned was wed to Catelyn so couldnt have dishonored wifey thus keeping his honor intact. If it was his bro, who was promised to Cat, but was killed in the rebellion, did he protect his big bros honor and claim Jon. Or was it some Maury shyt. both Stark bros laid the pipe and know one knows who the daddy is.....

The theory isnt solid but there are truths in there, No way could Ned have known Lyannas baby was gonna look like a Stark to pass "it" off as his own, he couldnt rock up at Winterfell with some platinum haired purple eyed baby. How he got Dany out of there is of course like much of this a mystery but we got Wargs and Dragons so theres alot of things possible plus Danys history is a mess with contradictions and memories that dont add up, her having memories growing up in Bravos but memories of surroundings and a lemon tree, that Bravos doesnt have.

Just saying...

It's not too easy. The first book came out in 1996. People have had 19 years to put together the clues. If GRRM had finished the whole series more quickly no one would have had time to put it together. I certainly would have had no idea who Jon Snow's mother was without the internet.

As far as the curve goes.....I think the curve ball is Dany and Jon are twins. I've read the theory elsewhere and it makes sense. For one, the actor who played Theon let it slip that there was a Star Wars ending where Jon is concerned, so it makes you think. Series is call "A Song of Ice & Fire". You can look at that in two ways. Jon is the "Song of Ice & Fire", combination of two parts, Fire from Rhaegar and Ice from Lyanna. With the Twin theory, Jon is the Ice with Stark looks and Dany is the Fire with Targ looks but, they still each have both. Lyanna Stark died in childbirth. I mean its believable. It is the middle ages and she was like 16, girls died in labor all the time. But it would be more believable that she died giving birth to twins. It explains the Ashara Dayne disappearance and why Ned felt the need to travel South to Dorne with a newborn baby that's a secret targaryen in the middle of a war when he should've been on the fastest boat back home. Risking your nephew's life to return a sword.....not buying it. Now what I do buy is Ned had two kids to look after. One kid had black hair and Stark looks, so he could be hid in The North. The other kid had silver hair and Targaryen looks, so no, she had to be sent away. It also explains why Ned got upset with Robert when he talked about hunting Dany and Viserys down in Season 1. Why would he care? I think Ned dropped Dany off to Ashara Dayne, the only woman he trusted and she "fell off a cliff and disappeared". That's some bullshyt too. Ashara jumped off a cliff because she was full of grief? :camby: That's not really all that believable. I think the House with the Red Door Dany remembers was somewhere in Dorne. I think Ashara Dayne smuggled Dany over to Essos and got in contact with Illyrio. Illyrio either knew he was knowingly taking in Rhaegar's daughter (Dany) or Ashara presented herself as someone else who just happened to have an orphan child with Valyrian/Targ looks and somewhere along the line the real Dany died and Illyrio switched the kids so he could still have three Targs. Viserys would have been like 5, 6 years old. He wouldn't know the difference. Also, GRRM has a way of putting things in your face before the big reveal. All this time Dany wants to know more about Rhaegar and not her father. Obvious reason is The Mad King was fukkin crazy and psycho. But still, Dany should want to know something about her parents though. Her father? Her mother? She never asks. She never asks Baristan about either of them really. Only about Rhaegar. Dany has this longing attachment to Rhaegar and it would be real slick to me if its because he is in fact her father and not her brother.

:russ: I dead azz didn't read the rest of your post. Only the bolded. So we on the same wavelength with Dany and Jon. I should've read completely before I started typing.
 
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Chris Cool

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As for Neds virtue.

Night watch dude sees a walker, one of the most scariest things in that world. escapes with his life, is caught accepts his fate with dignity even though he knows what he saw and tells Ned, what does Ned do, investigate the sighting or question the guy? No follows orders, beheads dude. His second youngest in a coma in dodgy circumstances, does Ned say "nah gotta stay home" no he follows orders, kill ya daughters innocent direwolf, follows orders, an attempt on Brans life in his OWN HOME, follows orders, wifey pitches up at KL leaving the two youngest at winterfell, follows orders.

Then Is told the Targ girl is gonna have to die and for the first time turns his back on The King says fukk you you fat fukk im going home, does that not seem out of character to anyone??

Wait. This is the guy so Honorable no one thinks it possible he would have got some p*ssy whilst away at war but will break his honour for a young girl he doesnt even know.

I think these are valid points of discussion but for some reason any question of what is only a popular theory is treated as heresy. Martin says a few readers have figured it out. Well more than a few support R + L = J so the same people who are :cape:for that theory have assumed it is them he is talking about and no one has the right to put forward any thing different.

Why?

it's not out of character at all. the guy was against killing kids, period. and he died for that shyt.
 

KingMalik

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Good point.

Ned doesnt hide Jon from Robert though, he just doesnt entertain small talk about his baby mother.

The flaw in that for me if that he seeds Ashara up before his brother dies why hide it? Brandon was supposed to wed Cat. It could be that he loved Ashara, who killed herself.

So he either doesn't lie, and/or will not free himself from the lie by snitching on his brother.

Or dishonoring both the name of the dead women he loved or the mother of his northern children. This ties in with Neds character and involve being honorable on all counts

Another indicator often overlooked are the Direwolf pups they found, who are all siblings, for all the Stark siblings, aint no cousins of the Starks running about with Direwolves.

We know Ned is haunted by the promise of protecting a child and feeling he failed, how can this have anything to do with Jon,??

Ned isnt worried about Jon at all, defo no where near enough to be haunted in the way he clearly is in the first book. So it doesnt make sense that Jon is Lyanna's boy. Even if Jon is Brandons which I also doubt, Ned cosigned for Jon to go make a lifelong pledge to Nights Watch with his bad ass First Ranger Uncle, so is just moving from one Uncle to a next.

Jon is Neds son, Ned aint losing no sleep over Jon. Ned raised Jon, at Wintefell. The kid is about that Winter Life Jon can look after his self, oh yeah and has his own fukkin Direwolf.

But if Dany is his niece, think about it. He thinks of the promise he made to Lyanna when in the crypt with Robert, on the way to Kings Landing and more than once haunted by the whole thing whilst at Kings Landing, especially after the big argument with Robert and the council over killing Dany.

Yep....he protected Jon. His nephew was safe at Winterfell. But he would certainly feel haunted by the fact his niece was somewhere off in the world being hunted and chased from place to place.
 

KingMalik

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So if you didn't presuppose Visarys lied then you think the adults just hit him with okie-doke and handed him a baby saying it's his sister and she was born on Dragonstone? I'm trying to figure out what makes you doubt Dany was born on Dragonstone

I personally think there was a switch involved between the Dany we know and the Dany that was born on Dragonstone. It would explain alot of the weird decisions Ned/Ashara made. Viserys is seven years older than Dany. How much do you remember from when you were 7? How clear are the details in your memories of 2nd grade?
 

The Blind Man

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It's not too easy. The first book came out in 1996. People have had 19 years to put together the clues. If GRRM had finished the whole series more quickly no one would have had time to put it together. I certainly would have had no idea who Jon Snow's mother was without the internet.

As far as the curve goes.....I think the curve ball is Dany and Jon are twins. I've read the theory elsewhere and it makes sense. For one, the actor who played Theon let it slip that there was a Star Wars ending where Jon is concerned, so it makes you think. Series is call "A Song of Ice & Fire". You can look at that in two ways. Jon is the "Song of Ice & Fire", combination of two parts, Fire from Rhaegar and Ice from Lyanna. With the Twin theory, Jon is the Ice with Stark looks and Dany is the Fire with Targ looks but, they still each have both. Lyanna Stark died in childbirth. I mean its believable. It is the middle ages and she was like 16, girls died in labor all the time. But it would be more believable that she died giving birth to twins. It explains the Ashara Dayne disappearance and why Ned felt the need to travel South to Dorne with a newborn baby that's a secret targaryen in the middle of a war when he should've been on the fastest boat back home. Risking your nephew's life to return a sword.....not buying it. Now what I do buy is Ned had two kids to look after. One kid had black hair and Stark looks, so he could be hid in The North. The other kid had silver hair and Targaryen looks, so no, she had to be sent away. It also explains why Ned got upset with Robert when he talked about hunting Dany and Viserys down in Season 1. Why would he care? I think Ned dropped Dany off to Ashara Dayne, the only woman he trusted and she "fell off a cliff and disappeared". That's some bullshyt too. Ashara jumped off a cliff because she was full of grief? :camby: That's not really all that believable. I think the House with the Red Door Dany remembers was somewhere in Dorne. I think Ashara Dayne smuggled Dany over to Essos and got in contact with Illyrio. Illyrio either knew he was knowingly taking in Rhaegar's daughter (Dany) or Ashara presented herself as someone else who just happened to have an orphan child with Valyrian/Targ looks and somewhere along the line the real Dany died and Illyrio switched the kids so he could still have three Targs. Viserys would have been like 5, 6 years old. He wouldn't know the difference. Also, GRRM has a way of putting things in your face before the big reveal. All this time Dany wants to know more about Rhaegar and not her father. Obvious reason is The Mad King was fukkin crazy and psycho. But still, Dany should want to know something about her parents though. Her father? Her mother? She never asks. She never asks Baristan about either of them really. Only about Rhaegar. Dany has this longing attachment to Rhaegar and it would be real slick to me if its because he is in fact her father and not her brother.

:russ: I dead azz didn't read the rest of your post. Only the bolded. So we on the same wavelength with Dany and Jon. I should've read completely before I started typing.

Props breh.

In her vision she sees Aerys, Rhaegar with a baby boy, and Drogo with a baby boy. Which would be direct links to her. Grandpops, Pops, Twin Bro, Drogo and unborn child.

My homie said that Rhaegar had a baby boy so it must be Jon, but I reminded him Drogo also has a baby boy and we know that didnt happen. The baby with Rhaegar could have been The Young Targ running with (Proff) Griff and the company I suppose.

I am interested in the Ashara aspect. We are told Dany was at Dragonstone at some point, no one says they were there for her birth like a maester or a sept, Viserys is nealrly 8 when Dany is supposed to have been born at Dragonstone, at 8 he is old enough to remember seeing her there and them leaving together. Oberyn visits them whilst they are still under the care of Darry, so that puts a Dornish prince in the mix. Are there clues to Asharas involvement?
 

Scottie Drippin

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I personally think there was a switch involved between the Dany we know and the Dany that was born on Dragonstone. It would explain alot of the weird decisions Ned/Ashara made. Viserys is seven years older than Dany. How much do you remember from when you were 7? How clear are the details in your memories of 2nd grade?
My sister was born when I was 7 and I remember everything about it :skip:
 

The Blind Man

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having you're sister switched would be a pretty significant memory bruh. 7 is more than old enough to remember some shyt like that.

He is defo old enough to have that memory. Thats why I think she was at Dragonstone at sometime. He will have known his Targ' dukes was pregnant, if she dies during yet another still birth and Dany was switched, would he know, would he have seen the still birth?

Martin likes a switch too, Gllys pickney gets switched, Varys switched Aegon with a Gin Alley baby for Gregor to play with. Missing Arya is switched to the poole bird. Mance gets switched with rattleshirt, Faceless homies switch faces. Sansa o Alayne, Cat to a Zombie, Theon to Reek, b*stards to legits.

I think thats a decent precedent to the possibility of a switch being involved.
 

Scottie Drippin

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My brother went to jail when I was 6 and I was told he went away to college. I believed that shyt for years :skip: You really trust the testimony of a seven year old?
But you remember he was gone tho :skip: There's a huge difference between someone being gone and being lied to about there whereabouts versus someone just up and being replaced by someone.

Also, the BIGGEST problem with crackpot theories, not just in ASOIAF but in all literature, is they make no fukking sense.

In great literature, which ASOIAF absolutely is, in the hands of a great storyteller. Things happen for a reason.

Absolutely what purpose does what you're saying serve? That the Dany we know is actually just a random blonde infant who can withstand fire, control dragons, and that absolutely no other chracters involved in this grand conspiracy give a shyt about anymore :dwillhuh:
Was this during a War where your lineage was at threat and your ma and you were on the run hiding out at a castle.
High emotion makes things MORE memorable, not less :dead:
 

The Blind Man

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having you're sister switched would be a pretty significant memory bruh. 7 is more than old enough to remember some shyt like that.

thats pretty subjective, alot of people dont remember shyt from childhood. or dont wanna remember shyt from their childhood. Dany doesnt have clear memories around that age.
 

Scottie Drippin

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As people have mentioned, there's a REASON R+J=L is damn near universally accepted. If you've just gotten into the series in the last few years the idea that all sorts of other shyt is every bit as likely makes sense, but for people who have been reading these books for 10+ years, and all the discussions, the analysis, re-readings, and watching year by year as other theories just get destroyed, R+J=L stands the test of time and ANY evidence, factual or hypothetical, you can throw at it.

Look at how many hoops you have to jump through to make Dany being their child work? You have to, from the very jump, ignore the fact that it's not even hinted, alluded, or even momentarily considered that she was born anywhere other than Dragonstone.

Everything in this series that isn't 100% valid already has some other rumor or evidence or belief against it.

Please show me a SINGLE instance of Dany not being born on Dragonstone being questioned.

Because all you have is conjecture based on nothing in the text. THAT'S what's wrong with this.
 
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