A Song of Ice & Fire by George R.R. Martin: Book Discussion Thread

[MidniteJay]

What makes Rhaegar so great? What did he do besides die on the Trident and embarrass Elia Martell ( I gotta say her whole name after the Viper fight) in front of the entire realm?

I don't know what Rhaegar was up to but he failed miserably.

Simp another woman in front of your wife in a massive crowd, brehs...

 

[Scottie Drippin]

I don't know what Rhaegar was up to but he failed miserably.

Give birth to the savoir?

Mission Accomplished

Sing us a song, Rhaegar

 

[The Blind Man]

I don't think there's plenty of people saying they have Targ blood besides Viserys, Dany and Aegon. Now some people might say they have Valryian blood, but as far as the family Targareyen then I think its just those three.

The reason Ned has to keep Jon being a Targ a secret (if he is a Targ) is for his own protection. You know what happened to Rhaenys and "Aegon", brutally killed despite being just children. And that cold hearted fukk Robert didn't care. So what might Robert do to the child of the man he hated and the woman he loved?

Further what might other people do to Jon, people who want to curry favor with Robert? Could they not make an attempt on Jon's life? Or could those with a grudge against the crown not seek to use Jon to restore the Targ dynasty. There's plenty of good reasons for Ned to keep hush-hush about Jon's parentage if he's a Targ. There's like no good reason to tell anyone he's Rhaegar's son.

Props breh. Good points.

In the recent History book it mentions about the claims to Targ blood in Westeros but lol I was thinking of Benn "Ive got two drops of Targ blood" Plumm.

If he was The Last Targ alive I could defo see that, but we know he isnt, shyt Ned knows he isnt.

And isnt Jon at the wall with a well known famous Targ who isnt there in secret and managed to avoid the scenarios you suggested. It could be that Ned didnt know of Prince Aemon Targ.

I'm sold Jon is Rhaegars, its indisputable, consider me converted, im bout to tattoo a 7 pointed star on my head @sparrow life.

Peace.

 

[KatieGotAzzHairs]

What makes Rhaegar so great? What did he do besides die on the Trident and embarrass Elia Martell ( I gotta say her whole name after the Viper fight) in front of the entire realm?

I'm not gonna crush your brain matter with a parasol or tell my nikkas in detroit to leave flaming poop on your porch. I'll just tell you what's so good about Rhagod.

-Beloved by highborn and lowborn alike
-Intelligent as a grand maester
-As skilled a musician as any in the realm
-Selmy, who served three kings, thinks Rhaegar was better than any of them
-The ultimate compliment to Dany is she's like Rhaegar
-Even grumpy ol Tywin gave him his props
-Believed so greatly he needed to save the realm he's tossed aside his marriage, his dynasty and now gets called out on a hip hop message board. Some gratitude!
-Gave birth to the savoir!

 

[dennis roadman]

What makes Rhaegar so great? What did he do besides die on the Trident and embarrass Elia Martell ( I gotta say her whole name after the Viper fight) in front of the entire realm?

he was a renaissance man. born in nobility, but practiced wildling traditions and asshai voodoo. quick with a sword or a harp, and wrote his own songs without having 15 people in the studio who deserved writing credits. was southron/valyrian to the core but fell in love with a she-wolf. and he was defeated in battle by the dude that was just as bad as his father, whom he knew to be a disastrous ruler.

 

[KatieGotAzzHairs]

Props breh. Good points.

In the recent History book it mentions about the claims to Targ blood in Westeros but lol I was thinking of Benn "Ive got two drops of Targ blood" Plumm.

If he was The Last Targ alive I could defo see that, but we know he isnt, shyt Ned knows he isnt.

And isnt Jon at the wall with a well known famous Targ who isnt there in secret and managed to avoid the scenarios you suggested. It could be that Ned didnt know of Prince Aemon Targ.

I'm sold Jon is Rhaegars, its indisputable, consider me converted, im bout to tattoo a 7 pointed star on my head @sparrow life.

Peace.

good discussion!

With Aemon that's a good question. I guess he's so damn old what would be the point of raising your banners for him? I had kind of hoped he'd live long enough to find out Jon is a Targ tho.

 

[Black Magisterialness]

yea there are just too many signs of r+l=j to really think anything else could be true. it would be crazy if it was something different but doubt it.

yeah

So Ned argues with The King about Killing Dany, quits a job The King begged him to take (yeah Ned quitting over some bullshyt disagreement) dreams about The Tower, wakes up and thinks nah I'm staying.

"it made him afraid for Jon" How? He doesnt think of Jon until before he dies, on some "shoulda spent more time with the boy" father shyt.

"Bu, but Howland Reed knows aswell"

Yeah he a major player, yeah everyone is hunting for Howland to find the answers.........
Yeah Neds sweating about his son being a bloodraven and finding out the truth cos he knew that, before, his, head, got, cut, off...........

Robert is dead before Ned, exactly who is out there hunting down Targs. Who?

All the shyt that happens to Jon, when does who his parents are, put him in any kinda danger.


pricks like you. this is a book discussion thread, we discussing shyt. you getting all hurt like you got money riding on this shyt, no one knows so later for your bullshyt.

Reasonable questions have been asked and you sitting there like Sway.

I agree that cats get to worked up BUT. GRRM already said SOME things are already figured out by the readers. However, there are some flaws. With your logic if we are going with the R + L = J theory.

1. Forget about Bran. No one even knew he was a greenseer and warg until after he was already a cripple and Ned was already dead.

2. If Robert was hard up on killing the Targs Ned KNOWS the Lannisters would be. In the small councils he was hella adverse to sending assassins to kill Dany..WHY? Well we know about Ned's world renown virtue...but he also knows that this is the aunt of his nephew (that he raised as his own son). He stay because he knows that any threat to the Lannisters would be met with force. He also would support Stannis because at the time he was next in line AND Stannis didn't make a habit of just running around slaughtering Targs like Robert would. Stannis would be more likely to wait until a real threat was made before he would make a move on Jon.

2.5. He also thinks on Jon because he felt like Cat did him wrong in addition to the fact that this boy is crying out to know where he comes from and to find his place in the world (which was already written before his birth) but he didn't know it, doesn't know it, and according to Ned at the time...might not ever know it.

3. Ned is a man of black and white...when things are what they are he SAYS it. Varys is slithery, Littlefinger is sneaky, Robert is fat and out of form, The royal debt is absurd....all of this Ned has either said or thought. So why when Jon asked about his parents did he say "You don't have my name but you have my blood". Instead of "you are my son". It doesn't add up.

4. The very moment shyt hits the fan and the war breaks out Howland Reed goes into hiding and sends his kids to Winterfell, why? Because a secret he knows could very well cause yet ANOTHER war or doom Jon to death. A boy who's birth he was there for.

5. Jon being a Targ would be a death sentence ANYWHERE in Westeros and based of Dany's campaigns in Essos too. Not to mention that

 

[The Blind Man]

What's being deflected? It's canon that Dany was born on Dragonstone during a terrible storm, hence the name Daenerys Stormborn but for some reason you want to believe that isn't true.

Let me ask you this.....why do you think Viserys would lie about where she was born at?

Your right, he pimped his sister out, said he would have let thousands of men rape her, threatened to cut her baby out of her belly...

But he wouldnt lie!!!!

I didnt presuppose he lied.

It is similar to the Stark scenario.

Jon is presented as Neds and because he looks more Stark than Robb Sansa and Rickon, NO ONE in westeros ever doubts he is Neds, I have not read anyone in the story doubting this,

If I were a judge in a secret keeping competition I'd give Ned 10/10 and tell him to chill with the self doubt and thinking you let ya sister down. No one knows, no one is asking, it seems no one cares. Job done. it dies with you. .


As for Viserys he was a bambino, I just thought if his mum had yet another still born and died during child birth. Dany being presented to him as his sister didnt seem too much of reach, It wasnt for the Starks.

Reverse that and it doesnt work, Ned could not pitch up at Winterfell with Dany and say she's a Stark.

Likewise Jon could not be passed as a Targ.

 

[detroitwalt]

I'm not gonna crush your brain matter with a parasol or tell my nikkas in detroit to leave flaming poop on your porch. I'll just tell you what's so good about Rhagod.

-Beloved by highborn and lowborn alike
-Intelligent as a grand maester
-As skilled a musician as any in the realm
-Selmy, who served three kings, thinks Rhaegar was better than any of them
-The ultimate compliment to Dany is she's like Rhaegar
-Even grumpy ol Tywin gave him his props
-Believed so greatly he needed to save the realm he's tossed aside his marriage, his dynasty and now gets called out on a hip hop message board. Some gratitude!
-Gave birth to the savoir!

he was a renaissance man. born in nobility, but practiced wildling traditions and asshai voodoo. quick with a sword or a harp, and wrote his own songs without having 15 people in the studio who deserved writing credits. was southron/valyrian to the core but fell in love with a she-wolf. and he was defeated in battle by the dude that was just as bad as his father, whom he knew to be a disastrous ruler.

good discussion!

With Aemon that's a good question. I guess he's so damn old what would be the point of raising your banners for him? I had kind of hoped he'd live long enough to find out Jon is a Targ tho.

Aemon was offered the kingdom and he refused. As old as he is, taking the Black was still a respectable thing to do before it became a place for crooks to avoid death, therefore no one would try to get them involved in the politics of the land. Plus they were rolling deeper back then so nobody would just stroll up there and try to take out Aemon

Your right, he pimped his sister out, said he would have let thousands of men rape her, threatened to cut her baby out of her belly...

But he wouldnt lie!!!!

I didnt presuppose he lied.

It is similar to the Stark scenario.

Jon is presented as Neds and because he looks more Stark than Robb Sansa and Rickon, NO ONE in westeros ever doubts he is Neds, I have not read anyone in the story doubting this,

If I were a judge in a secret keeping competition I'd give Ned 10/10 and tell him to chill with the self doubt and thinking you let ya sister down. No one knows, no one is asking, it seems no one cares. Job done. it dies with you. .


As for Viserys he was a bambino, I just thought if his mum had yet another still born and died during child birth. Dany being presented to him as his sister didnt seem too much of reach, It wasnt for the Starks.

Reverse that and it doesnt work, Ned could not pitch up at Winterfell with Dany and say she's a Stark.

Likewise Jon could not be passed as a Targ.

So if you didn't presuppose Visarys lied then you think the adults just hit him with okie-doke and handed him a baby saying it's his sister and she was born on Dragonstone? I'm trying to figure out what makes you doubt Dany was born on Dragonstone

 

[dennis roadman]

-Believed so greatly he needed to save the realm he's tossed aside his marriage, his dynasty and now gets called out on a hip hop message board. Some gratitude!

brhae if this were the old days i swear to god, they wouldnt even think about comin at our boy's ruby-studded chest like that

a got damn mummer's farce

 

[The Blind Man]

yeah


I agree that cats get to worked up BUT. GRRM already said SOME things are already figured out by the readers. However, there are some flaws. With your logic if we are going with the R + L = J theory.

1. Forget about Bran. No one even knew he was a greenseer and warg until after he was already a cripple and Ned was already dead.

2. If Robert was hard up on killing the Targs Ned KNOWS the Lannisters would be. In the small councils he was hella adverse to sending assassins to kill Dany..WHY? Well we know about Ned's world renown virtue...but he also knows that this is the aunt of his nephew (that he raised as his own son). He stay because he knows that any threat to the Lannisters would be met with force. He also would support Stannis because at the time he was next in line AND Stannis didn't make a habit of just running around slaughtering Targs like Robert would. Stannis would be more likely to wait until a real threat was made before he would make a move on Jon.

2.5. He also thinks on Jon because he felt like Cat did him wrong in addition to the fact that this boy is crying out to know where he comes from and to find his place in the world (which was already written before his birth) but he didn't know it, doesn't know it, and according to Ned at the time...might not ever know it.

3. Ned is a man of black and white...when things are what they are he SAYS it. Varys is slithery, Littlefinger is sneaky, Robert is fat and out of form, The royal debt is absurd....all of this Ned has either said or thought. So why when Jon asked about his parents did he say "You don't have my name but you have my blood". Instead of "you are my son". It doesn't add up.

4. The very moment shyt hits the fan and the war breaks out Howland Reed goes into hiding and sends his kids to Winterfell, why? Because a secret he knows could very well cause yet ANOTHER war or doom Jon to death. A boy who's birth he was there for.

5. Jon being a Targ would be a death sentence ANYWHERE in Westeros and based of Dany's campaigns in Essos too. Not to mention that

Props.

I will discuss in reverse order if thats cool,

5: Death sentence? Dany and Viserys are known to be alive. How many attempts are made on their lives? They are not in disguise, Robert knows thery're alive but is only concerned with Dany when she is Marrying drogo. The only attempts are on Danys life, no attempts or even mention of killing Viserys who has the real claim by the way. If was he on a Targ killing spree he could have killed them both pretty easy and pardoned Jorah it seems.

4: Howland Reed isnt really mentioned in great detail for someone so important, The amount of people who die in this saga who havent got a deadly secret is huge, worrying about Jon or anyone getting killed in westeros is futile at best. Jon isnt the last Targ, there are full blown Targs alive I just cant see who that secret would upset to that extent once Roberts dead.

3: Good point but could be purely semantics, how do other Lords address there b*stards, but again great point, why wouldnt Ned say "my son" if it was his son. A counter to that is why would Jon have got a Direwolf, if the pups are for all the Stark children is Jon just a really lucky cousin?

2 & 2.5: It seems that the Lannisters have a mixed history with the Targs but nothing to suggest they would hate them as much as Robert. They were neutral for the majority of the rebellion only when Rhaegair is killed at the Trident and Tywin knows who is gonna win does he side with Robert. It goes the other way, is Tywin turning on the family he has served as Hand for decades. Plus Tywins response to news of Dany is met with indifference, out of all the houses, if Tywin wanted the Targ kids killed cos he felt they were a threat, do we now think Tywin wouldnt do something like that? Or even couldnt do something like that?

The Mad King Turned westeros against the Targs, in the new fire and ice history its put that Rhaegar was looking to overthrow Aerys, so it still would have been a Targ on throne. Why would Varys and the Dornish think it possible or even want to reinstate a Targ on the Throne if everyone hated them to that extent, fact is they didnt just hated Aerys, alot of houses are very pro Targ.

As for Neds virtue.

Night watch dude sees a walker, one of the most scariest things in that world. escapes with his life, is caught accepts his fate with dignity even though he knows what he saw and tells Ned, what does Ned do, investigate the sighting or question the guy? No follows orders, beheads dude. His second youngest in a coma in dodgy circumstances, does Ned say "nah gotta stay home" no he follows orders, kill ya daughters innocent direwolf, follows orders, an attempt on Brans life in his OWN HOME, follows orders, wifey pitches up at KL leaving the two youngest at winterfell, follows orders.

Then Is told the Targ girl is gonna have to die and for the first time turns his back on The King says fukk you you fat fukk im going home, does that not seem out of character to anyone??

Wait. This is the guy so Honorable no one thinks it possible he would have got some p*ssy whilst away at war but will break his honour for a young girl he doesnt even know.

I think these are valid points of discussion but for some reason any question of what is only a popular theory is treated as heresy. Martin says a few readers have figured it out. Well more than a few support R + L = J so the same people who are for that theory have assumed it is them he is talking about and no one has the right to put forward any thing different.

Why?

 

[The Blind Man]

Aemon was offered the kingdom and he refused. As old as he is,

Erm Aemon joined the watch 35. Approx the same age as Ned when he was killed.

taking the Black was still a respectable thing to do before it became a place for crooks to avoid death

The King emptied the cells and sent the all criminals to the wall with Aemon.

therefore no one would try to get them involved in the politics of the land. Plus they were rolling deeper back then so nobody would just stroll up there and try to take out Aemon

So a half Targ isnt safe at the wall but a full blood Targ has been chillin there for years. Cool.

So if you didn't presuppose Visarys lied then you think the adults just hit him with okie-doke and handed him a baby saying it's his sister and she was born on Dragonstone? I'm trying to figure out what makes you doubt Dany was born on Dragonstone

Ahh right so Ned brings Jon home. Shows the entire North, his wife, kids, brother, bannermen, everyone, the biggest "okie-doke" in the entire story so far according to you sparrows. And it does it so well not once does anyone think Jon isnt his,

But no one is gonna fool an infant viserys with a kid that couldnt look anymore Targ.

How does that work?

 

[Adam3000]

Maybe I misread the title of the thread.

A Song of Ice & Fire by George R.R. Martin: Book Discussion Thread

Maybe there should be a subtitle to keep people from discussing things that pricks like @Adam3000 think are unworthy in a:

A Song of Ice & Fire by George R.R. Martin: Book Discussion Thread


People have theories, best way is for people of different views to discuss them, ask question explore ideas.

Not liking an idea doesnt mean its wrong, just means you dont like it. Which is cool, its not that important,

I would love to finally read that Jon is the son of Rhaegar & Lyanna on some "OH shyt".

I'm not gonna sit there thinking Martin s wrong cos I can reverse engineer the story to fit an idea I prefer, If I was gonna do that, Ned and Robb would be alive conquering Westeros.

I actually prefer examples of how I have misinterpreted the text or blatantly missed vital points, thats how we learn isnt it.

If your gonna sit there thinking you know better but cant be fukked to say why, you don't belong in a

A Song of Ice & Fire by George R.R. Martin: Book Discussion Thread

Aint no one tell you to shut up or nothing like that

Just did a SMH at Preston Jacobs and said I personally wasn't going to entertain it any further

There is like 30 other posters in this thread that will discuss it with you

You are having imaginary feelings of internet persecution.

 

[Adam3000]

can we get back to discussing how rhaegar targaryen is the greatest character to never be in a book?

i get it, we all wanna know who his seed might be. them kingdoms thirstin for TPTWP

What if I told you that in real life I actually am kind of a Rhaegar stan?























SIKE





Howland Reed, Arthur Dayne, Bran The Builder, The Nights King, Ser Baldric the Cunning >>>>> Rhaegar L.

 

[The Blind Man]

Aint no one tell you to shut up or nothing like that

Just did a SMH at Preston Jacobs and said I personally wasn't going to entertain it any further

There is like 30 other posters in this thread that will discuss it with you

You are having imaginary feelings of internet persecution.

Okay @Adam 3000 "high sparrow" Is cool breh breh.