A Song of Ice & Fire by George R.R. Martin: Book Discussion Thread

[Mr. Pink]

Wasn't Selmy severely injured while tower of joy happened?

He was. I don't mean that he should have been at the ToJ, just that he shouldn't have accepted Robert's pardon if he was so honorable.

 

[MidniteJay]

Barristan himself:

Also notice the self-righteousness. The 'kingslayer soiled the white cloak' he wore. Who was worse, Jaime who actually had the guts to do the right thing by killing Aerys despite knowing what it would cost him, or Barristan and the rest of the Kingsguard who did nothing while Aerys maimed and killed innocents, raped his wife and burned people alive, because of their personal 'honor'?

I do agree that the concept of the Kingsguard as presented in the books, and regular knighthood to a lesser extent, is moronic. But there some people smart and brave enough to recognize that no code or law should be followed too closely if it means endangering the very thing you sought to protect. Jaime was one of these, while Barristan was not.

For me personally, this is the heart of the matter: Barristan is a great knight, but so great a man...

Damn yo...Deconstructing the fukk out of Barristan. Almost make me not want to like Selmy no more.

 

[Mr. Pink]

Nah dude, do you.

It actually speaks to the greatness of the series and how complex the characters are in the sense that different people read about the same character and come up with completely different takes on him.

Barristan is just a side-dish, you wouldn't believe the kind of monster debates people like Tyrion, Jaime, Stannis, Catelyn etc. can cause.

 

[T-K-G]

What are your theories on the 3 headed dragon prophecy?


I personally think that 3 headed dragon = 3 people who will be able to ride Dany's dragons (since the dragons only allow one rider)

So dany is already one of them...

Aegon got the blood so he's probably gonna be able to ride one of them

But the last one, im not so sure of.... althought if Jon really turned out to be Rhaegar's son..... then i think he would be the 3rd but i dont know how that would play out in the story...

 

[Mr. Pink]

I'm going with the 3 dragon riders as well. I'm pretty sure Tyrion is going to be the 2nd one. Not sure who the 3rd one is going to be. Arya and Jon were popular theories years ago but their both have their own thing going on now... as for Aegon, he may be "a mummer's dragon" that Quaithe mentions. A fake.

The thing is there are so many visions and prophecies going around that I'm pretty certain a number of them won't happen, or at least not the way we expect them too. A number of them may be red herrings. The Azhor Azhai/ PTWP is the one I'm most curious about. I don't even know if the two are the same thing or two different things.

 

[T-K-G]

I'm going with the 3 dragon riders as well. I'm pretty sure Tyrion is going to be the 2nd one. Not sure who the 3rd one is going to be. Arya and Jon were popular theories years ago but their both have their own thing going on now... as for Aegon, he may be "a mummer's dragon" that Quaithe mentions. A fake.

The thing is there are so many visions and prophecies going around that I'm pretty certain a number of them won't happen, or at least not the way we expect them too. A number of them may be red herrings. The Azhor Azhai/ PTWP is the one I'm most curious about. I don't even know if the two are the same thing or two different things.

on the contrary i think that they are all connected and each of the characters are just living a "piece" of the entire thing out



and im gonna go off on another tangent right now....They never actually said that Jon was dead... If i recall correctly they did the same thing with Theon and we were supposed to think he was dead we he actually just came out the bushes with the Reek persona.

i think Melisandre finna do some type of magic on the kid to patch him up, but you never know with this Martin nikka

 

[Bud Bundy]

Nah dude, do you.

It actually speaks to the greatness of the series and how complex the characters are in the sense that different people read about the same character and come up with completely different takes on him.

Barristan is just a side-dish, you wouldn't believe the kind of monster debates people like Tyrion, Jaime, Stannis, Catelyn etc. can cause.

she caused the destruction of house stark.

 

[obarth]

Barristan himself:

Also notice the self-righteousness. The 'kingslayer soiled the white cloak' he wore. Who was worse, Jaime who actually had the guts to do the right thing by killing Aerys despite knowing what it would cost him, or Barristan and the rest of the Kingsguard who did nothing while Aerys maimed and killed innocents, raped his wife and burned people alive, because of their personal 'honor'?

I do agree that the concept of the Kingsguard as presented in the books, and regular knighthood to a lesser extent, is moronic. But there some people smart and brave enough to recognize that no code or law should be followed too closely if it means endangering the very thing you sought to protect. Jaime was one of these, while Barristan was not.

For me personally, this is the heart of the matter: Barristan is a great knight, but so great a man...

Did Jaime not soil the white cloak he wore? Like I said, the beef is with knighthood and the inherent contradictions it creates. I respect the guy who either knew what he was getting into and turns the position down because of it or takes the position and sees it through no matter what qualms he ends up having with it. The Kingsguard serve for life, they don't choose who their king is. They get stuck with a cruel king, they deal with it. Ask yourself, is Jaime murking Aerys if his pops wasn't on the way with his army? Cause he sat around for a while just like Barristan watching Aerys commit his atrocities. I love Jaime, but to try to big him up at the expense of Barristan is silly. Jaime was "smart and brave" enough to do what he did because he had a clear opening to do so with little to no worry of personal danger. When has Barristan had that luxury?

That quote doesn't say losing his cloak made him realize what monsters Cersei and Joffrey are, it says it made him realize he had to find the true king. He might have had his suspicions from when Ned denied Joffrey's legitimacy in front of anyone and being relieved of his cloak not only gave him the opportunity to seek out the true king, but gave him the motivation (however selfish a motivation that might be) to seek out the true king. The main mistake I always see made with Ned and Barristan though, because they were so honor bound, everyone looks for any little thing to put them down as if they forget that these two dudes are human at the end of the day. GRRM has been writing about flawed characters that aren't perfectly good or bad the whole series, yet cats act like Ned and Barristan weren't part of that.

 

[irishfury]

I'm going with the 3 dragon riders as well. I'm pretty sure Tyrion is going to be the 2nd one. Not sure who the 3rd one is going to be. Arya and Jon were popular theories years ago but their both have their own thing going on now... as for Aegon, he may be "a mummer's dragon" that Quaithe mentions. A fake.

The thing is there are so many visions and prophecies going around that I'm pretty certain a number of them won't happen, or at least not the way we expect them too. A number of them may be red herrings. The Azhor Azhai/ PTWP is the one I'm most curious about. I don't even know if the two are the same thing or two different things.

I have a feeling Jon Snow and Tyrion will be the other 2 dragon riders.
Tywins wife cheated on him.

 

[Mr. Pink]

Did Jaime not soil the white cloak he wore?

Barristan said Jaime soiled the cloak he(Barristan) wore. Like Jaime being a Kingsguard somehow dishonored Barristan. What a selfish fukk.

Like I said, the beef is with knighthood and the inherent contradictions it creates. I respect the guy who either knew what he was getting into and turns the position down because of it or takes the position and sees it through no matter what qualms he ends up having with it. The Kingsguard serve for life, they don't choose who their king is.

I don't respect such a man. Regardless, it wasn't about duty, it was about Barristan's personal honor. If he was such an honorable man then why didn't he refuse Robert's pardon and died for his king like the rest of his brothers? Then he has the nerve to say that he would have killed Robert if he saw him smiling when Aegon and Rhaenys' corpses were presented to him. Well who gives a fukk if you saw it or not, the kids were still dead. He should have tried to kill Robert anyway. He was all talk.

Ask yourself, is Jaime murking Aerys if his pops wasn't on the way with his army? Cause he sat around for a while just like Barristan watching Aerys commit his atrocities. I love Jaime, but to try to big him up at the expense of Barristan is silly. Jaime was "smart and brave" enough to do what he did because he had a clear opening to do so with little to no worry of personal danger. When has Barristan had that luxury?

Jaime wasn't in any physical danger but he knew killing Aerys would seal his fate as a 'kingslayer'. He would forever be the very image of dishonor, and be "accursed in the eyes of gods and men'. Knowing how prejudiced the people of Westeros are and that at that point Jaime was still an idealist, you don't think killing Aerys cost him anything? Also Ned Stark wanted Robert to send Jaime to the Wall...

Barristan never had a chance to kill Aerys, but he wouldn't have done it anyway. Nevertheless he had a chance to quit the Kingsguard. It wouldn't have gone very well with him, but there you have it. It was a hard choice, no doubt, but others had it just as rough or rougher than him. And that's Barristan's hypocrisy, he excuses himself, but not others.

That quote doesn't say losing his cloak made him realize what monsters Cersei and Joffrey are, it says it made him realize he had to find the true king. He might have had his suspicions from when Ned denied Joffrey's legitimacy in front of anyone and being relieved of his cloak not only gave him the opportunity to seek out the true king, but gave him the motivation (however selfish a motivation that might be) to seek out the true king.

Of course he knew what they were. You misinterpred what I said. When I said "he only realized...." I meant it in a sarcastic way. He knew Joffrey was scum but he still served him because he lost his 'honor'. Then when his honor was no longer an issue he conveniently realized he had to find the 'true king'. Hypocrisy.

The main mistake I always see made with Ned and Barristan though, because they were so honor bound, everyone looks for any little thing to put them down as if they forget that these two dudes are human at the end of the day. GRRM has been writing about flawed characters that aren't perfectly good or bad the whole series, yet cats act like Ned and Barristan weren't part of that.

Oh I know they're flawed. And hypocrisy is Barristan's flaw.

 

[Black Magisterialness]

I mean how he suddenly realized what monsters Joffrey and Cersei are and that Daenerys is the rightful ruler of Westeros only after he was dismissed from the Kingsguard. Until that he was fine with them. Like Varys said "Ser Barristan loves his honor".

My beef with Barristan is that he fails to recognize that doing the right thing is more important than his personal 'honor'. Even Ned Stark was better than him in that regard. He stood by and did nothing while Aerys Targaryen commited his atrocities. He accepted Robert's pardon while the rest of the Kingsguard had the guts to die in battle at the ToJ even though the king was dead. He has nothing but contempt for the 'kingslayer' but the truth is that the 'kingslayer' did the right thing by killing Aerys and had more courage than Barristan. He was even willing to serve under Joffrey and Cersei despite knowing they did Ned Stark dirty(tearing up the paper that proclaimed him regent). He turned a blind eye to alot of shady shyt as long as his personal honor was intact.

To be fair I've warmed up to him a bit in ADWD since his POVs show that he is actually conflicted about these things but I still don't like him.

Barristan was all about the loyalty to the king...i mean the Secret Service (who i equate the kings guard too) doesn't all seppuku themselves if the President is killed. The king he served was no longer the king and it just so happen ALL of the previous kingsguard was killed. Remember it wasn't a big deal for guard to serve until death because the Dragonlords were the ONLY kings of Westeros and thus the ONLY to have kingsguard....the Usurper, Robert was the 1st non-targaryen to sit on the throne....

I viewed Barristan as loyal to the THRONE...the office itself more so than to the man that sits upon it.

 

[obarth]

Barristan said Jaime soiled the cloak he(Barristan) wore. Like Jaime being a Kingsguard somehow dishonored Barristan. What a selfish fukk.
I don't respect such a man. Regardless, it wasn't about duty, it was about Barristan's personal honor. If he was such an honorable man then why didn't he refuse Robert's pardon and died for his king like the rest of his brothers? Then he has the nerve to say that he would have killed Robert if he saw him smiling when Aegon and Rhaenys' corpses were presented to him. Well who gives a fukk if you saw it or not, the kids were still dead. He should have tried to kill Robert anyway. He was all talk.
Jaime wasn't in any physical danger but he knew killing Aerys would seal his fate as a 'kingslayer'. He would forever be the very image of dishonor, and be "accursed in the eyes of gods and men'. Knowing how prejudiced the people of Westeros are and that at that point Jaime was still an idealist, you don't think killing Aerys cost him anything? Also Ned Stark wanted Robert to send Jaime to the Wall...

Barristan never had a chance to kill Aerys, but he wouldn't have done it anyway. Nevertheless he had a chance to quit the Kingsguard. It wouldn't have gone very well with him, but there you have it. It was a hard choice, no doubt, but others had it just as rough or rougher than him. And that's Barristan's hypocrisy, he excuses himself, but not others.


Of course he knew what they were. You misinterpred what I said. When I said "he only realized...." I meant it in a sarcastic way. He knew Joffrey was scum but he still served him because he lost his 'honor'. Then when his honor was no longer an issue he conveniently realized he had to find the 'true king'. Hypocrisy.

Oh I know they're flawed. And hypocrisy is Barristan's flaw.

Like I said, the crux of the problem is you're using a modern day set of morals in a fictional world which has it's own set of customs and morals. I've browsed the Westeros.org forums and there's alot of people on the same steez. Like I said, did Jaime not soil the cloak that he (Jaime) wore, which is the same cloak that Barristan and the rest of the KG wear? It's a simple question. Klarifye already addressed dying for his king. His king was already dead. Jaime was an idealist at the time? Jaime was just as jaded back then as now. Dude killed the king and was chilling on the throne when Ned walked in. He became a Kingsguard just so he could continue fukking his sister. Where exactly is the idealism? Jaime was not putting the scorn of the seven kingdoms over his own life. Incest is an abomination in the Westeros as well. You're throwing the word hypocrisy around way to liberally, breh. Aery's was dead and Barristan was gravely wounded. Robert saw to it that he was tended to and offered him the position of Lord Commander. Him accepting doesn't break any of his vows. Jaime killing the king he's sworn to protect, breaks pretty much the most important vow. Again, your problem is with the vows in the first place. That and Barristan gets almost universal love from fans so of course there's a contingent that will try to throw shade on him, same with every other fan favorite in the book.

 

[MidniteJay]

@ Bronn (lol kind of punny)

I thought dude was a dead man when Cersei planned his death with Balman and Lady Falyse. I didn't expect him to have so much clout.

Lady Falyse got done dirty though. Wish I knew what procedures that Qyburn be doing in his experiments. Images in my head ain't pretty at all

 

[Mr. Pink]

Yo, isn't this bytch supposed to notify you whenever someone quotes you?

Like I said, the crux of the problem is you're using a modern day set of morals in a fictional world which has it's own set of customs and morals. I've browsed the Westeros.org forums and there's alot of people on the same steez.

Well duh, of course. Like I said Barristan is a great knight, but not a great person. I said I find him boring and hypocritical. I'm obviously judging him by current standards.
I understand that you disagree but the problem with the "those were just the times back then" mentality is that you could use them to justify a lot of things. Slavery for example. By your logic Dany should just send the slaves she freed in Yunkai, Astapor and Meereen back in chains. After all the place is called Slaver's Bay, it's been going on for thousands of years. But no, despite her faults, Dany recognized that slavery is inherently wrong.
You mentioned Ned Stark. I also have a big problem with him refusing Renly/Varys/Littlefinger's offers and basically challenging the Lannisters up front. He knew it would mean war. He knew thousands and thousands would die or have their lives ruined. Yet he didn't give a shyt, because he wanted to do 'the just and honorable' things.

I know we fundamentally disagree on this "those were the times" part so we might as well drop this particular point.

Like I said, did Jaime not soil the cloak that he (Jaime) wore, which is the same cloak that Barristan and the rest of the KG wear? It's a simple question

Based on the rigid set of values that make up Westerosi honor he did, no question. My problem is that Barristan selfishly only viewed it as an affront to his personal honor without regard of Jaime's problem. The dude was basically 16, and was forced to choose between his father and his honor/king. Barristan never had to make that type of choice.
.

Klarifye already addressed dying for his king. His king was already dead.

He was also dead when Arthur Dayne, Gerold Hightower and Oswell Whent made their last stand at the ToJ. So was Rhaegar. That didn't stop him. They could have surrenderd and asked for a pardon. They could have went across the Narrow Sea to join the Golden Company. But they chose honor and death. Barristan chose to serve under the man who killed his king, the man who he swore to protect. Isn't that dishonorable by Barristan's standards? Yes it was. Clearly Barristan himself had issues with his decision based on the quote I previously posted where he confesses to Dany.

Jaime was an idealist at the time? Jaime was just as jaded back then as now. Dude killed the king and was chilling on the throne when Ned walked in. He became a Kingsguard just so he could continue fukking his sister. Where exactly is the idealism?

Dude, he was an idealist. His POVs in ASOS show this. Yes, he joined so he could continue fukking his sister. He also loved her. Is love not idealistic? He also was in love with knighthood and chivalry, based on him idolizing Arthur Dayne and the Blackfish. Jaime at 16 was basically the male version of Sansa. He even lacked political acumen just like her, based on him failing the recognize that the only reason Aerys made him a Kingsguard was to rob Tywin of his heir.

"And me, that boy I was… when did he die, I wonder? When I donned the white cloak? When I opened Aerys’s throat? That boy had wanted to be Ser Arthur Dayne, but someplace along the way he had become the Smiling Knight instead."

Jaime was not putting the scorn of the seven kingdoms over his own life. Incest is an abomination in the Westeros as well.

I'm not sure I understand this part...

You're throwing the word hypocrisy around way to liberally, breh. Aery's was dead and Barristan was gravely wounded. Robert saw to it that he was tended to and offered him the position of Lord Commander. Him accepting doesn't break any of his vows.

See above. Barristan felt like shyt when he confessed to Daenerys in ASOS about serving under the 'usurper'.

Jaime killing the king he's sworn to protect, breaks pretty much the most important vow. Again, your problem is with the vows in the first place. That and Barristan gets almost universal love from fans so of course there's a contingent that will try to throw shade on him, same with every other fan favorite in the book.

So automatically I'm going against the grain just because I have issues with him?

@ Bronn (lol kind of punny)

I thought dude was a dead man when Cersei planned his death with Balman and Lady Falyse. I didn't expect him to have so much clout.

Lady Falyse got done dirty though. Wish I knew what procedures that Qyburn be doing in his experiments. Images in my head ain't pretty at all

Bronn is a master troll.

 

[MidniteJay]

Bronn is a master troll.

For real yo.

That's a lot of balls right there. He flat out spit on Cersei when she got a massive search going on to murk Tyrion Lannister. Dude had a trill ass come up, I hope he stays alive and keeps his status by the time the book is over. He deserves it lol