A Song of Ice & Fire by George R.R. Martin: Book Discussion Thread

[Black Magisterialness]

Anyone else in here interested in what happens with the balon swann/gerold 'darkstar' dayne storyline? balon is currently hunting darkstar for

Spoiler

slicing myrcella

, i hope we get swann pov chapter with him and a darkstar battle going down


i ask cause balon swann by far is my favorite 'backround' character in the book. everyone speaks of him in high regard(im pretty sure hes the only one to refuse to slap sansa for joff or at least take it real easy on her) and even jamie says swann and loras tyrell are the only current members of the kingsguard worthy of wearing the white cloak. Darkstar came off as a bad mofo in AFFC and hes a cousin of one of the greatest knights ever(arthur dayne) and im pretty sure he got his own valyrian sword...so im expecting some epic shyt to go down

I'm interested in Dorne in general, i think they are just now about to really play their hand in the Game. I'm more hype about the Sand Snakes and what they will do...it seems like one is planted in MAJOR areas like Oldtown, Kings Landing, you got one that is looking for Darkstar WITH Balon Swann...so its gonna be dope.

I wish we can get a chapter or a novella about Robert's Rebellion....the Tower of Joy to be exact i would LOVE to know how the hell Howland Reed and Ned survived 2 of the greatest kingsguard to ever live in Sword of the Morning and Gerold Hightower.

 

[Soymuscle Mike]

I wish we can get a chapter or a novella about Robert's Rebellion....the Tower of Joy to be exact i would LOVE to know how the hell Howland Reed and Ned survived 2 of the greatest kingsguard to ever live in Sword of the Morning and Gerold Hightower.

We'll see Howland Reed before it's all over, George has something planned for him.

This is the reason he's been kept out of the story, he knows too much. The same's kind of happening with Barristan, he'll drop tons of hints but George will always look for a way to have him not simply tell Dany everything he knows.

 

[Black Magisterialness]

We'll see Howland Reed before it's all over, George has something planned for him.

This is the reason he's been kept out of the story, he knows too much. The same's kind of happening with Barristan, he'll drop tons of hints but George will always look for a way to have him not simply tell Dany everything he knows.

Barristan gotta give us something cuz i think he's gonna die in this battle for Mereen.

 

[Mr. Pink]

Never cared for Barristan. I hope Victarion does him in...

 

[TheGreatShowtime]

Just finished the first book and watched the first season of the show. I'm enjoying it so far. About to start the 2nd book tonight

 

[obarth]

Never cared for Barristan. I hope Victarion does him in...

Victarion's a badass but his chapters never did anything for me. His revenge mission against Euron is a nice subplot though. But if he gets control of that dragon horn

 

[Mr. Pink]

What's so great about Barristan? Yeah he's a badass with a sword but he's also boring, and a hypocrite to boot.

 

[duck]

Yeah it's a pretty popular conception on another forum that Stannis will somehow sunder the lake and drown Roose's forces.

possible re-appearence of wildfire coming up?

 

[obarth]

What's so great about Barristan? Yeah he's a badass with a sword but he's also boring, and a hypocrite to boot.

I can see why you would consider him boring, but he only ever had 4 POV chapters and they were all entertaining. Plus he was also really interesting during the whole Arstan Whitebeard phase when he saved Danys life twice. I'm gonna regret asking this (cause I'm pretty sure I know what you're gonna say) but how is Selmy a hypocrite?

 

[Mr. Pink]

I mean how he suddenly realized what monsters Joffrey and Cersei are and that Daenerys is the rightful ruler of Westeros only after he was dismissed from the Kingsguard. Until that he was fine with them. Like Varys said "Ser Barristan loves his honor".

My beef with Barristan is that he fails to recognize that doing the right thing is more important than his personal 'honor'. Even Ned Stark was better than him in that regard. He stood by and did nothing while Aerys Targaryen commited his atrocities. He accepted Robert's pardon while the rest of the Kingsguard had the guts to die in battle at the ToJ even though the king was dead. He has nothing but contempt for the 'kingslayer' but the truth is that the 'kingslayer' did the right thing by killing Aerys and had more courage than Barristan. He was even willing to serve under Joffrey and Cersei despite knowing they did Ned Stark dirty(tearing up the paper that proclaimed him regent). He turned a blind eye to alot of shady shyt as long as his personal honor was intact.

To be fair I've warmed up to him a bit in ADWD since his POVs show that he is actually conflicted about these things but I still don't like him.

 

[duck]

I mean how he suddenly realized what monsters Joffrey and Cersei are and that Daenerys is the rightful ruler of Westeros only after he was dismissed from the Kingsguard. Until that he was fine with them. Like Varys said "Ser Barristan loves his honor".

My beef with Barristan is that he fails to recognize that doing the right thing is more important than his personal 'honor'. Even Ned Stark was better than him in that regard. He stood by and did nothing while Aerys Targaryen commited his atrocities. He accepted Robert's pardon while the rest of the Kingsguard had the guts to die in battle at the ToJ even though the king was dead. He has nothing but contempt for the 'kingslayer' but the truth is that the 'kingslayer' did the right thing by killing Aerys and had more courage than Barristan. He was even willing to serve under Joffrey and Cersei despite knowing they did Ned Stark dirty(tearing up the paper that proclaimed him regent). He turned a blind eye to alot of shady shyt as long as his personal honor was intact.

To be fair I've warmed up to him a bit in ADWD since his POVs show that he is actually conflicted about these things but I still don't like him.

i dont think he was fine with them, all like that

he made remarks about how if he saw king robert smike when persented with the dead bodies of the targaryan kids, if he saw a smile on roberts face, he would have killed him . if he felt that way about robert for that incident, its easy to assume he feels the same way about the lannisters so that right there shows he always had morals. if selmy didnt get releived of his duty, that whole kill all the black haired kids in king's landing situation wouldnt have went down.

 

[Mr. Pink]

i dont think he was fine with them, all like that

he made remarks about how if he saw king robert smike when persented with the dead bodies of the targaryan kids, if he saw a smile on roberts face, he would have killed him . if he felt that way about robert for that incident, its easy to assume he feels the same way about the lannisters so that right there shows he always had morals. if selmy didnt get releived of his duty, that whole kill all the black haired kids in king's landing situation wouldnt have went down.

Actually that irked me to no end, because it was a rationalization. He's just telling himself that to sleep better. "Yeah I would have did shyt but...". Just like Prodigy is always about to kill someone but something always conveniently happens.
Fact is Arthur Dayne, the White Bull and Oswell Whent had the guts to die at the ToJ despite both Aerys and Rhaegar being dead. Jon Darry risked his life, took Viserys and Dany into exile and spent the rest of his life raising and protecting them. Jon Connington raised Rhaegar's son. What does Barristan the Bold do? He accepts Robert's pardon. Who cares if he wasn't there to see Robert smile, the children were no less dead.

He had contempt for Jorah because he informed on Dany to Varys, who cares if Jorah just wanted to go home, it was 'dishonorable'. Yet a little while later he encourages Dany to abandon Mereen and the men she freed in Astapor and Yunkai to slavery, famine, disease and slaughter because...he wants to go home. Real class act right there.

fukk him. Syrio Forel is all that Barristan should be and more.

 

[obarth]

I mean how he suddenly realized what monsters Joffrey and Cersei are and that Daenerys is the rightful ruler of Westeros only after he was dismissed from the Kingsguard. Until that he was fine with them. Like Varys said "Ser Barristan loves his honor".

My beef with Barristan is that he fails to recognize that doing the right thing is more important than his personal 'honor'. Even Ned Stark was better than him in that regard. He stood by and did nothing while Aerys Targaryen commited his atrocities. He accepted Robert's pardon while the rest of the Kingsguard had the guts to die in battle at the ToJ even though the king was dead. He has nothing but contempt for the 'kingslayer' but the truth is that the 'kingslayer' did the right thing by killing Aerys and had more courage than Barristan. He was even willing to serve under Joffrey and Cersei despite knowing they did Ned Stark dirty(tearing up the paper that proclaimed him regent). He turned a blind eye to alot of shady shyt as long as his personal honor was intact.

To be fair I've warmed up to him a bit in ADWD since his POVs show that he is actually conflicted about these things but I still don't like him.

I figured that's what you were going to say and nothing about that is hypocritical. I'd be more willing to c/s if you just had a beef with the whole idea of knighthood as that is what created so many honor based contradictions which ultimately make both Jaime and Barristan wrong. But again this is a case of not reading the books in the context of the world they're created in but instead letting your personal moral code dictate right and wrong.

Who says his dismissal is what made him realize how horrible Joff and Cersei were?

 

[Mr. Pink]

I figured that's what you were going to say and nothing about that is hypocritical. I'd be more willing to c/s if you just had a beef with the whole idea of knighthood as that is what created so many honor based contradictions which ultimately make both Jaime and Barristan wrong. But again this is a case of not reading the books in the context of the world they're created in but instead letting your personal moral code dictate right and wrong.

Who says his dismissal is what made him realize how horrible Joff and Cersei were?

Barristan himself:

“I took Robert’s pardon, aye. I served him in Kingsguard and council. Served with the Kingslayer and others near as bad, who soiled the white cloak I wore. Nothing will excuse that. I might be serving in King’s Landing still if the vile boy upon the Iron Throne had not cast me aside, it shames me to admit. But when he took the cloak that the White Bull had draped about my shoulders, and sent men to kill me that selfsame day, it was as though he’d ripped a caul off my eyes. That was when I knew I must find my true king, and die in his service—”

Also notice the self-righteousness. The 'kingslayer soiled the white cloak' he wore. Who was worse, Jaime who actually had the guts to do the right thing by killing Aerys despite knowing what it would cost him, or Barristan and the rest of the Kingsguard who did nothing while Aerys maimed and killed innocents, raped his wife and burned people alive, because of their personal 'honor'?

I do agree that the concept of the Kingsguard as presented in the books, and regular knighthood to a lesser extent, is moronic. But there some people smart and brave enough to recognize that no code or law should be followed too closely if it means endangering the very thing you sought to protect. Jaime was one of these, while Barristan was not.

For me personally, this is the heart of the matter: Barristan is a great knight, but so great a man...

 

[Killakidkano]

Wasn't Selmy severely injured while tower of joy happened?