A Song of Ice & Fire by George R.R. Martin: Book Discussion Thread
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Roger Sterling
Senior Alias
It wasnt 20k
Theres no way anyones killing 20k fighters at one place
The Red Wedding was a massacre that took place at the Twins in 299AL during the War of the Five Kings, in which the King in the North, Robb Stark, his mother Catelyn Stark, and most of his 3,500 bannermen were slaughtered
Right but he had 20,000 guys with him when he went south for the war. So, where'd the other 16,500 of them go while he was getting himself and the rest of the leadership killed?
HookersandIceCream
#TeamOrange
The Freys left him because of him breaking his vow
The Karstarks left when they killed thier leader
I'm sure he left alot behind since you dont bring your whole army to a wedding
Basically
I hope those Night Watch bytches aint kill mah nikka Ghost doe
shyt man I felt for Grey Wind when he got murked...he tried to warn em too. At least he didn't go down easily.
Basically
I hope those Night Watch bytches aint kill mah nikka Ghost doe
naw ghost is like the mascot and is gone like nohting.
All the direwolves are ill expect Lady she went out like a bytch.
Crazy speculation/spoiler about the next book and Stannis:
(Spoiler TWOW) The timing of the preview chapter and a certain letter : asoiaf
So, others may have already figured this out, but upon rereading ADWD I've noticed some things I missed the first time around that I think help explain the Theon preview chapter:
First, the obvious that I missed - how is Tycho talking to Stannis? I was unsure from reading the preview chapter (did he just wander around the north until he bumped into him?) but Asha's last chapter in ADWD makes it clear - Jon doesn't know where Stannis is, so he sent him to Stannis's last-known location, Deepwood Motte, with a pair of Night's Watch for protection/guidance. There, Tycho was told that Stannis was on his way to Winterfell, so he ransomed the Ironmen (for more protection, I guess, or just to bring Stannis good warriors) and headed there. Outside the walls, he ran into Crowfoot Umber, who didn't know where Stannis was either, so Tycho just backtracked and looked around until he found him. That much is straight from the text, so far.
Now, the implications: what's the letter on Stannis's desk? It's implied, but I'm pretty sure there's only one possibility - the letter Jon sent warning Stannis about the Karstarks. Jon also sent this letter to Deepwood Motte, Stannis's last-known location, so Tycho must have picked it up and brought it with him. Theon is giggling because he already knows the Karstarks are Bolton men, from seeing Karstark next to Ramsay at the Dreadfort in the first Reek chapter. How he thinks the Night's Watch knows, I'm unsure of.
Next, the location and timing: I had assumed Stannis's location at the beginning of TWOW was unknown - essentially a random small town somewhere in the wilderness. Well, it is, but what I didn't realize (that maybe others did) was that it's the same one. He hasn't moved. The stone tower Theon's in is the same one described in ADWD. We know this not only because of the similar description but because of what must be the timing of this chapter. Asha goes outside after having supper and finds the new men arriving. Tycho tells her he needs to see Stannis and that time is of the essence. Then, in TWOW, we see a pre-breakfast scene (Karstark comes to have breakfast with him). I think the only logical implication is that this is the very next morning and thus the chapter takes place a mere matter of hours after Asha's last chapter in ADWD. Tycho is in a hurry and Stannis assumes he's about to be attacked, and he's also a man of certainty and action - it makes perfect sense for him to agree to take on the Iron Throne's debt basically immediately upon talking with Tycho or at the very least, the next morning. So he can't have moved camp.
So, since we know it's the same camp, we know the basic layout. There's a large frozen lake that's been used heavily for fishing (it mentions at one point that parts of the lake are like swiss cheese from the number of holes in it). Stannis mentions in TWOW that he plans on using the advantage of having the ground he does in order to overcome superior numbers - might this involve something to do with eliminating the ice on the lake or perhaps creating some kind of situation with collapsing ice once the army reaches a certain point on it? Just speculation, but I found it interesting that there was a specific mention of how many holes there were in the ice, combined with a plan to use natural defenses.
Finally, the letter. If it's accurate (a seven-day battle), the last Jon chapter takes place at least one week and more likely several weeks after Asha's chapter. I know Martin's done some mixing of timelines before, but it seems exceedingly strange to me for him to have a chapter taking place one night, then a chapter taking place several weeks later at a nearby location, then go back to the first location for something the morning after that first night. I certainly won't say it's impossible, but knowing the timing of the two other chapters, it seems rather more likely that the last Jon chapter takes place at basically the same time as these. This would fit in nicely with the leading theory about the letter - that Ramsay is bluffing about Stannis and only knows what he knows because he captured at least one of the washerwomen, and possibly but not necessarily Mance. As far as he knows, Theon and Jeyne are at the wall, because the washerwomen told him under torture that their mission was to bring "Arya" back to the wall. So why does he send it? I don't think he's trying to bait Jon into doing something rash. He's an impulsive, rash man who is used to having his commands followed, and he probably thinks lying about destroying Stannis (which Ramsay probably thinks is about to happen anyway) will make Jon think he's without allies. So I think it's just an embellished threat based on what Ramsay knows at the time. Mance writing it, or other theories, are too clever by half.
First, the obvious that I missed - how is Tycho talking to Stannis? I was unsure from reading the preview chapter (did he just wander around the north until he bumped into him?) but Asha's last chapter in ADWD makes it clear - Jon doesn't know where Stannis is, so he sent him to Stannis's last-known location, Deepwood Motte, with a pair of Night's Watch for protection/guidance. There, Tycho was told that Stannis was on his way to Winterfell, so he ransomed the Ironmen (for more protection, I guess, or just to bring Stannis good warriors) and headed there. Outside the walls, he ran into Crowfoot Umber, who didn't know where Stannis was either, so Tycho just backtracked and looked around until he found him. That much is straight from the text, so far.
Now, the implications: what's the letter on Stannis's desk? It's implied, but I'm pretty sure there's only one possibility - the letter Jon sent warning Stannis about the Karstarks. Jon also sent this letter to Deepwood Motte, Stannis's last-known location, so Tycho must have picked it up and brought it with him. Theon is giggling because he already knows the Karstarks are Bolton men, from seeing Karstark next to Ramsay at the Dreadfort in the first Reek chapter. How he thinks the Night's Watch knows, I'm unsure of.
Next, the location and timing: I had assumed Stannis's location at the beginning of TWOW was unknown - essentially a random small town somewhere in the wilderness. Well, it is, but what I didn't realize (that maybe others did) was that it's the same one. He hasn't moved. The stone tower Theon's in is the same one described in ADWD. We know this not only because of the similar description but because of what must be the timing of this chapter. Asha goes outside after having supper and finds the new men arriving. Tycho tells her he needs to see Stannis and that time is of the essence. Then, in TWOW, we see a pre-breakfast scene (Karstark comes to have breakfast with him). I think the only logical implication is that this is the very next morning and thus the chapter takes place a mere matter of hours after Asha's last chapter in ADWD. Tycho is in a hurry and Stannis assumes he's about to be attacked, and he's also a man of certainty and action - it makes perfect sense for him to agree to take on the Iron Throne's debt basically immediately upon talking with Tycho or at the very least, the next morning. So he can't have moved camp.
So, since we know it's the same camp, we know the basic layout. There's a large frozen lake that's been used heavily for fishing (it mentions at one point that parts of the lake are like swiss cheese from the number of holes in it). Stannis mentions in TWOW that he plans on using the advantage of having the ground he does in order to overcome superior numbers - might this involve something to do with eliminating the ice on the lake or perhaps creating some kind of situation with collapsing ice once the army reaches a certain point on it? Just speculation, but I found it interesting that there was a specific mention of how many holes there were in the ice, combined with a plan to use natural defenses.
Finally, the letter. If it's accurate (a seven-day battle), the last Jon chapter takes place at least one week and more likely several weeks after Asha's chapter. I know Martin's done some mixing of timelines before, but it seems exceedingly strange to me for him to have a chapter taking place one night, then a chapter taking place several weeks later at a nearby location, then go back to the first location for something the morning after that first night. I certainly won't say it's impossible, but knowing the timing of the two other chapters, it seems rather more likely that the last Jon chapter takes place at basically the same time as these. This would fit in nicely with the leading theory about the letter - that Ramsay is bluffing about Stannis and only knows what he knows because he captured at least one of the washerwomen, and possibly but not necessarily Mance. As far as he knows, Theon and Jeyne are at the wall, because the washerwomen told him under torture that their mission was to bring "Arya" back to the wall. So why does he send it? I don't think he's trying to bait Jon into doing something rash. He's an impulsive, rash man who is used to having his commands followed, and he probably thinks lying about destroying Stannis (which Ramsay probably thinks is about to happen anyway) will make Jon think he's without allies. So I think it's just an embellished threat based on what Ramsay knows at the time. Mance writing it, or other theories, are too clever by half.
(Spoiler TWOW) The timing of the preview chapter and a certain letter : asoiaf
Scottie Drippin
Should Never Mention Me
I've felt for a while now that Melisandre will either kill him or do something that directly leads to his death.
Killakidkano
Rookie
Daenerys saw a blue eyed king with a glowing red sword in the house of the undying so she'll probably be the one who kills him
Uptown WaYo87
HARLEM/BX
Anyone else in here interested in what happens with the balon swann/gerold 'darkstar' dayne storyline? balon is currently hunting darkstar for
, i hope we get swann pov chapter with him and a darkstar battle going down
i ask cause balon swann by far is my favorite 'backround' character in the book. everyone speaks of him in high regard(im pretty sure hes the only one to refuse to slap sansa for joff or at least take it real easy on her) and even jamie says swann and loras tyrell are the only current members of the kingsguard worthy of wearing the white cloak. Darkstar came off as a bad mofo in AFFC and hes a cousin of one of the greatest knights ever(arthur dayne) and im pretty sure he got his own valyrian sword...so im expecting some epic shyt to go down
slicing myrcella
i ask cause balon swann by far is my favorite 'backround' character in the book. everyone speaks of him in high regard(im pretty sure hes the only one to refuse to slap sansa for joff or at least take it real easy on her) and even jamie says swann and loras tyrell are the only current members of the kingsguard worthy of wearing the white cloak. Darkstar came off as a bad mofo in AFFC and hes a cousin of one of the greatest knights ever(arthur dayne) and im pretty sure he got his own valyrian sword...so im expecting some epic shyt to go down