A Song of Ice & Fire by George R.R. Martin: Book Discussion Thread
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He had Joffrey killed so I don't think he's team Lannister. But this nikka and Varys are making some major fukking moves behind the scenes. The 'gamesmanship' and political manoeuvering between Varys, Littlefinger and Tyrion in ACOK is one of the highlights of the series for me and Littlefinger was gangster as fukk in ASOS. That's why I can't really shyt on Littlefinger and Varys in the TV thread.that was my point....Littlefinger has had absolutely NO repercussions for his actions. You can't even say he's on the Lannister's side he does so much to work on his own terms....the marriage to the Tyrells was his idea...and it was only to get a major holding, marry Lysa, kill her and gain control of the Eyrie and place Sansa back in Winterfell...
As far as end game, I'm assuming this nikka LF whats to be king. He's playing the game of thrones and all the shyt that he has now (the wealth, the lordship, the castle, the house) are stepping stones towards him achieving his ultimate goal as it's shyt that he needs if he wants to be king.
In my mind, I'm thinking that whoever wins the back and forth between LF and Varys will ultimately decide who becomes the head nikka in charge at the end. Varys has no influence on the council now and has had to go underground but with the nikka sponsoring house Targaryan, this nikka still has a major fukking say when it's all said and done.
At the same time though I think Varys is more dangerous than LF. For me, LF seems to be motivated by personal gain - to be the king which I think stems from the fact that he holds a grudge for being too lowborn to be suited to Cat back in the days and then embarrassed himself trying to get at Brandon Stark. He even offers to be a match for Sansa at one point but again he's too low born to be matched so this nikka is creating chaos which aids his ascent from being a low born nikka to the head nikka in charge.
Varys' move have me like
because he's apparently backing the Targaryans but when Aerys was king, he was sowing seeds of destruction to bring the house down. I think it was Selmy who was saying Varys was feeding Aerys' paranoia that Rhaegar wanted to overthrow him. If that was true and Varys was for the realm as he says, then he would've let it play out because Aerys was a mad fukk. I have no idea what Varys' end game is- he says hes for the good of the realm but I don't believe that shyt for a minute.I've only just finished reading ADWD yesterday though and will probably have to read the whole thing again as there's probably a gang of shyt that went unnoticed.
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Adam3000
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That Theon chapter from Winds of Winter 
Malik
Superstar
As far as end game, I'm assuming this nikka LF whats to be king. He's playing the game of thrones and all the shyt that he has now (the wealth, the lordship, the castle, the house) are stepping stones towards him achieving his ultimate goal as it's shyt that he needs if he wants to be king.
In my mind, I'm thinking that whoever wins the back and forth between LF and Varys will ultimately decide who becomes the head nikka in charge at the end. Varys has no influence on the council now and has had to go underground but with the nikka sponsoring house Targaryan, this nikka still has a major fukking say when it's all said and done.
At the same time though I think Varys is more dangerous than LF. For me, LF seems to be motivated by personal gain - to be the king which I think stems from the fact that he holds a grudge for being too lowborn to be suited to Cat back in the days and then embarrassed himself trying to get at Brandon Stark. He even offers to be a match for Sansa at one point but again he's too low born to be matched so this nikka is creating chaos which aids his ascent from being a low born nikka to the head nikka in charge.
Varys' move have me like
I've only just finished reading ADWD yesterday though and will probably have to read the whole thing again as there's probably a gang of shyt that went unnoticed.
Its not crazy at all if you operate under the belief that Illyrio and Varys are secret Blackfyre supporters, and that Aegon V is a Blackfyre (a descendant of Daemon Blackfyre). The Golden Company was founded over in the Free Cities. Varys and Illyrio met in Free Cities as kids. Maybe they decided to present Aegon V as a "Targaryen" because the name Blackfyre is so hated in the realm from all their failed conquests. But the truth is......Daeron II Targaryen (the King all the modern Targaryens descended from) was said to be a lovechild between Aemon and Naerys......whereas Daemon Blackfyre was actually the real son of Aegon IV. That would technically make all the Targaryens illegitimate and the Blackfyres the real Targaryens
If you think like that, then all of Varys' moves make sense
Adam3000
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I'm not sure you really even need to go that far to make sense of it. Varys feeding into Aerys paranoia doesn't really go against anything that he has done since. Varys doesn't say he was a Rhaegar loyalist, he says he is for the realm. Perhaps he thought a power struggle between Aerys and Rhaegar would hurt the realm. There is no way he could have known exactly how mad Aerys would become....its not like Varys instructed him to kill the Stark men.Its not crazy at all if you operate under the belief that Illyrio and Varys are secret Blackfyre supporters, and that Aegon V is a Blackfyre (a descendant of Daemon Blackfyre). The Golden Company was founded over in the Free Cities. Varys and Illyrio met in Free Cities as kids. Maybe they decided to present Aegon V as a "Targaryen" because the name Blackfyre is so hated in the realm from all their failed conquests. But the truth is......Daeron II Targaryen (the King all the modern Targaryens descended from) was said to be a lovechild between Aemon and Naerys......whereas Daemon Blackfyre was actually the real son of Aegon IV. That would technically make all the Targaryens illegitimate and the Blackfyres the real Targaryens
Also, Varys instructed Aerys to keep the gates closed to Tywin Lannister, so that is consistent with his pro-Aerys behavior. No one needs to jump to any conclusion to make any sense of his behavior. The only jumping to conclusions that I can see is assuming that "pro-realm" Varys would want Rhaegar to overthrow the Mad King. I see no evidence for that.
I'm no book historian though.
Adam3000
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I'm gonna be honest though....when it is all said and done I have a strong feeling that there are going to be plot holes in the entire Varys/Mad King/Illyrio/Aegon/Dany/Viserys scenario. Any conclusion I can come up with in my head doesn't really fit the whole story from beginning to end.
I suppose it is possible that some of these plot holes might be cleaned up by taking on the "unreliable narrator" idea in terms of what Barristan and others say about Varys during the Mad King reign
I suppose it is possible that some of these plot holes might be cleaned up by taking on the "unreliable narrator" idea in terms of what Barristan and others say about Varys during the Mad King reign
Adam3000
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Searched around and found a couple Targ family trees. I'm gonna study these a bit and hope I can figure out what the fukk is going on:
As far as end game, I'm assuming this nikka LF whats to be king. He's playing the game of thrones and all the shyt that he has now (the wealth, the lordship, the castle, the house) are stepping stones towards him achieving his ultimate goal as it's shyt that he needs if he wants to be king.
In my mind, I'm thinking that whoever wins the back and forth between LF and Varys will ultimately decide who becomes the head nikka in charge at the end. Varys has no influence on the council now and has had to go underground but with the nikka sponsoring house Targaryan, this nikka still has a major fukking say when it's all said and done.
At the same time though I think Varys is more dangerous than LF. For me, LF seems to be motivated by personal gain - to be the king which I think stems from the fact that he holds a grudge for being too lowborn to be suited to Cat back in the days and then embarrassed himself trying to get at Brandon Stark. He even offers to be a match for Sansa at one point but again he's too low born to be matched so this nikka is creating chaos which aids his ascent from being a low born nikka to the head nikka in charge.
Varys' move have me like
I've only just finished reading ADWD yesterday though and will probably have to read the whole thing again as there's probably a gang of shyt that went unnoticed.
I don't think he really wants to be king though, i think thats too obvious and too out in the open for Littlefinger. He might be trying to set himself up as the new Tywin, establish House Baelish as the Lannisters of the East. He himself lamented that he hated being so lowborn that he couldn't get Cat and he couldn't have certain opportunities. He might want to become that gatekeeper and make sure that he is never looked at as lowborn again. In fact, I think he's done so much in this series that on Vayris and MAYBE Tyrion might be his equals, no one else is even close. Like you said the game will be won based off what those 2 do. Everyone else is just chess pieces.
I always wonder what kind of notes, maps, charts, etc he uses... or if it's all just in his head
George R.R. Martin knows how to stop 'Game of Thrones' from catching up to his books
By Kwame Opamon March 15, 2014 09:01 am
Much has already been said about George R.R. Martin not having a whole lot of time to finish his A Song of Ice and Fire series before the HBO adaptation eventually catches up. (Or, if you're a more morbid member of the fandom, you're hoping hard he doesn't actually die before spring finally comes.) Now, even though he's still not your bytch, the author himself is expressing concern, telling Vanity Fair this week that the pace with which the show is moving up on him is "alarming." Not very encouraging. But, even though he's spent much of his career "trying to avoid deadlines," he has a detailed plan for how the next few season can be stretched to give him some more time. Read on at Vanity Fair, but only if you don't fear spoilers.
Source: http://www.vanityfair.com/vf-hollywood/george-r-r-martin-interview
http://www.theverge.com/2014/3/15/5...-how-to-stop-game-of-thrones-from-catching-up
Adam3000
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No
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Adam3000
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So it was Egg's youngest daughter that took on the Baratheon name and by butterfly effect helped usurp the Targ name from the throne