A Song of Ice & Fire by George R.R. Martin: Book Discussion Thread

[Adam3000]

Been trying to find new theories that I never saw in the past, in my readings came upon a lot of talk about exactly how important the Isle of Faces is to the story. It seems like it is going to be critical, and enough so that GRRM has purposefully avoided mentioning it since book 1 because he didn't want to give away too much of the story.

Crazy how you never really see much speculation on it, but in the end it might be a major part of the outcome. I read some interview from before Storm of Swords came out and they asked him about the Isle of Faces and Green Men and he was kind of like "geez I can't sneak anything past you guys. They will come to the forefront in the future"

 

[beanz]

Been trying to find new theories that I never saw in the past, in my readings came upon a lot of talk about exactly how important the Isle of Faces is to the story. It seems like it is going to be critical, and enough so that GRRM has purposefully avoided mentioning it since book 1 because he didn't want to give away too much of the story.

Crazy how you never really see much speculation on it, but in the end it might be a major part of the outcome. I read some interview from before Storm of Swords came out and they asked him about the Isle of Faces and Green Men and he was kind of like "geez I can't sneak anything past you guys. They will come to the forefront in the future"

i read that same shyt the other day. its some online chatroom interview he did before he even released storm of swords. at the time he thought he was gonna wrap it up in 6 books.

 

[Adam3000]

i read that same shyt the other day. its some online chatroom interview he did before he even released storm of swords. at the time he thought he was gonna wrap it up in 6 books.

Reading more now, if I were forced to place money on a theory it would be that Rhaegar and Lyanna married on the Isle of Faces before the heart trees. This would then legitimize Jon. And Bran can be used as a vehicle to confirm this marriage since he could see it through the trees, and also may be the one to release him from his Nights Watch vows if the "he died" angle doesn't work out.

Could be more to it, or could be something completely different. This just sounded the most plausible.

Looks like GRRM did mention the Isle of Faces in The Princess And the Queen too, where a Targ flew his dragon to the Isle to consult with the Green Men. We know virtually nothing about the order of Green Men, now I am excited to find out more about them. Sounds like Dream of Spring material to me though

 

[Black Magisterialness]

Bran certainly will play a huge role and so will a lot of side characters, but unfortunately I think he is permanently stuck in the cave just like Bloodraven was and in the end he won't have anything to do with Winterfell or anything south of the wall. Rickon has that on lock.

Bran is prolly the most powerful of all the Starks, breh. Bloodraven gonna teach him what he needs to know to tell Jon how to beat the walkers. All the remaining Starks are taking something from these heavy hitters in the world.

Sansa getting that political know how from Littlefinger and we all pretty much know that she is learning how to play the game from him and learned how NOT to from Cersei.
Arya getting that straight assassin, Sam Fisher from Braavos and will prolly be sent off to kill Dany only to meet up with Tyrion and come back with them.
Bran is the magic indian
Jon gon have the 7 (Targ), the Old Gods (Stark) AND The Lord of Light on his side (Meli)
Rickon still got Shaggydog


So right there you got a future Maester of Whispers, A world class assassin, a dude connected to the entire neural network of the continent (Weirwoods) and the rightful heir to the throne of Westeros, King in the North, Azor Ahai, and Shaggydog......

In the grand scheme, Starks don't looks that weak at all.

 

[beanz]

Reading more now, if I were forced to place money on a theory it would be that Rhaegar and Lyanna married on the Isle of Faces before the heart trees. This would then legitimize Jon. And Bran can be used as a vehicle to confirm this marriage since he could see it through the trees, and also may be the one to release him from his Nights Watch vows if the "he died" angle doesn't work out.

Could be more to it, or could be something completely different. This just sounded the most plausible.

Looks like GRRM did mention the Isle of Faces in The Princess And the Queen too, where a Targ flew his dragon to the Isle to consult with the Green Men. We know virtually nothing about the order of Green Men, now I am excited to find out more about them. Sounds like Dream of Spring material to me though

i swear to god, i was just coming to that same conclusion in my head after u mentioned the isle of faces. i even started typing it but my 6pm relief came in early and we started chit chatting and i didnt finish it. that sounds EXTREMELY likely. especially if its true that lyanna was the knight of the laughing tree and ran off to the isle of faces with rhaegar being sent after the knight by his father. she was already smitten with him after hearing him sing and he probably fell madly in love after finding out she is thoro like that. maybe something in the isle of faces gave him a sign of his prophecy and he felt like lyanna was the one. very very possible in my opinion.

 

[beanz]

Bran is prolly the most powerful of all the Starks, breh. Bloodraven gonna teach him what he needs to know to tell Jon how to beat the walkers. All the remaining Starks are taking something from these heavy hitters in the world.

Sansa getting that political know how from Littlefinger and we all pretty much know that she is learning how to play the game from him and learned how NOT to from Cersei.
Arya getting that straight assassin, Sam Fisher from Braavos and will prolly be sent off to kill Dany only to meet up with Tyrion and come back with them.
Bran is the magic indian
Jon gon have the 7 (Targ), the Old Gods (Stark) AND The Lord of Light on his side (Meli)
Rickon still got Shaggydog


So right there you got a future Maester of Whispers, A world class assassin, a dude connected to the entire neural network of the continent (Weirwoods) and the rightful heir to the throne of Westeros, King in the North, Azor Ahai, and Shaggydog......

In the grand scheme, Starks don't looks that weak at all.

word up. i like the whole bloodraven story arc too. the fact that bloodraven is the only other half blood of the first men/ half targaryen and valyrian blood character to ever pop up in westeros before jon snow(if the r+l is true). bloodraven was even a warg which is why the rumor existed that he was a sorcerer and had a thousand eyes and 1. bloodraven is a very important character to this whole song of ice and fire. not to mention the fact he helped kill off all the blackfyre's and aegon might very well be a blackfyre. bloodraven might be the one who sees this before anybody else.

 

[Adam3000]

Reading further I am now 90% convinced that the archmaesters of the Citadel are responsible for the vast majority of chaos surrounding the Iron Throne and the attempted removal of the Targaryens from power

If we believe what we are told in AFFC, we already know that the maesters were responsible for killing off all the remaining dragons. They were also responsible for sending Aemon to the Wall where he was away from 'worldly' matters

Now, after reading the "Southron Ambitions" theory it is clear to me that they were responsible for many events leading to Roberts Rebellion as well (not the rebellion itself, that happened on its own). It seems probable that the maesters of all the major houses (especially Rickard Stark's maester) were in the ear of their lords convincing them to join up all the great houses through marriage, a practice that didn't exist until the Tully/Stark union. This was going to lead to an eventual uprising against the Targ rule, but Roberts Rebellion happened instead and basically accomplished the same thing.

So now that I believe there is a grand maester conspiracy, the question becomes what their motives are. Do they just hate magic? Were they also possibly responsible for the Doom of Valyria? Are the goals more benign, perhaps just lasting peace and elimination of ruling through fear (hence, getting rid of dragons and the Mad King)?

I think the happenings in the Citadel have moved up to my #2 most intriguing plotlines behind Branraven. With Sam, a sand snake, and a Faceless Man all hanging around there shyt is about to get whoa. I am just starting a re-read of the series and might have to skip the first 3 books for now so I can digest all the stuff I missed in books 4&5 while trying to read too fast

 

[Malik]

Theory I seen somewhere else. What if turns out that Aegon V is a Blackfyre but, the Blackfyres are the actual legitimate heirs

OK, crackpot theory alert. Put on the safety goggles.

*deep breath*

What if the Blackfyres are the actual legitimate claimants?

We know that Aegon IV legitimized his b*stards on his deathbed, in what appears to have been a giant "up yours" to Westeros. But what if he had good reason — beyond mere court gossip — that Daeron II really was the son of Aemon the Dragonknight and Naerys? I don't know if Naerys preceded Aegon IV in death, but what if she (or someone close to her who would know) confessed to him, also on his deathbed, that Daeron really was Aemon's? Aegon's legitimizing his b*stards could have stemmed from that — so other claimants would be viable — and, for whatever reason (he died before he could?) was unable or unwilling to publicize the truth himself. Maybe he died before he could make another declaration against Daeron, or he didn't want to be a laughingstock so he kept his mouth shut, but hoped that his legitimized b*stards would stake a claim.

Aemon the Dragonknight supposedly loved Naerys and was devastated when she married Aegon. The marriage was unhappy and of course he constantly cheated on her with mistresses. It was already rumored that Daeron was Aemon's, and Aemon fought a duel in Naerys' honor when her reputation was slandered. But what if there's some truth to that? We're obviously meant to know in the back of our minds that they loved each other, and it's really the strength of their reputations — his as a knight, hers as a devout — that made the rumor so scandalous and unbelievable.

Fast forward to Daemon Blackfyre. He has lords whispering in his ear that they prefer him to Daeron and think he should be king. What if he, like Aegon IV possibly, has decent evidence that Daeron is in fact a b*stard, while he himself was actually legitimized? This seems like it might be a stronger motivation to go to war than, "Daddy gave me the sword and these guys like me better." Daemon loses, his family gets packed off across the Narrow Sea and Daeron's descendants — Maekar, Aegon V, Jaehaerys II, Aerys II, Rhaegar, Dany, etc. — form the modern Targaryen backbone. Daeron II is the good guy who makes peace with Dorne and Daemon is forever synonymous with b*starddom.

Fast forward again to Illyrio and Varys and the possibility that they want to put a Blackfyre on the throne. Varys in particular says he wants what's best for the realm, but again, what if what's driving them isn't just factional/familial loyalty, but also the understanding that it's Daemon's legitimized line that are the true heirs, and Daeron's that are the b*stards?

I realize how batshyt crazy this is and that it's 99% likely incorrect. It just struck me as an interesting idea and yet another complexity in the theme of b*stards vs. legitimates. Sometimes the "real kings" (like Joffrey) are illegitimate and sometimes the "b*stards" like Jon are the real deal. This is especially true in the current timeline of the novels, but given the apparent importance that the Blackfyres will continue to have, I thought it was worth taking another look at Daeron and Daemon and Aegon IV's possible motivations besides sheer asshattery.

 

[Adam3000]

Brehs, my mind is racing I should never have started investing time in these fukking books again. Should have just let it ride until WoW comes out

Reading Sam chapter in AFFC, before Aemon dies when he is having his visions he tells Sam:

It must be you. Tell them. The prophecy...my brother's dream...Lady Melisandre has misread the signs. Stannis....Stannis has some of the dragon blood in him, yes. His brothers did as well. [fast forward]I allowed myself to hope...perhaps I wanted to...we all deceive ourselves, when we want to believe. Melisandre most of all, I think. The sword is wrong, she has to know that...light without heat....an empty glamour....the sword is wrong, and the false light can only lead us deeper into darkness, Sam. Danaerys is our hope. Tell them that at the Citadel. Make them listen.

Obviously the sword and glamour he is referring to is Stannis glowing sword which he claims is Lightbringer and proves that he is Azor Ahai. I'm pretty sure we all agree that Stannis is not Azor Ahai, so that seems to bode well for Aemon's dying prophecies.

We also know that one of Melisandre's prophecies has already been fulfilled by Dany. Not specifically the Azor Ahai one, but the "king's blood waking dragons from stone." The funeral pyre that birthed her 3 dragons was this prophecy. You could claim that she was the kings blood that was burned, or you could claim that since she married Khal Drago that he was the king's blood who was burned and sacrificed. We know the 3 dragon eggs were just considered to be stone. So this has been completed. While this doesn't mean that Dany is Azor Ahai, it does lend more evidence that Aemon's ramblings are based on truth.

Now, going back to his ramblings, the thing that has my mind racing is "the false light can only lead us deeper into darkness." What I get from this is somehow Melisandre and Stannis are going to mess up a spell or prophecy and either accidentally assist the Others, or if you subscribe to the 'Dragonstone is a volcano' theory I posted earlier, maybe set off a Doom of Westeros. Maybe he will awake an ice dragon which Old Nan spoke of in her tales.

 

[Adam3000]

@beanz @daze23 holy shyt....

We were arguing in the show thread about the morality of Stannis and the blood magic. Well I justsaw something that completely absolves him in the deaths of Robb, Balon, and Joffrey.

There is an official app for iOS called The World Of Ice and Fire. There are certain things the app confirms such as Bloodraven being Bran's dude and Robb's will legitimizing Jon and namong him heir. Well...the app also states that Melisandre had already seen the deaths of the 3 kings on her fires, and she used the leeches merely to trick Stannis into thinking she killed them so she could convince him to let her burn Edric Storm


This completely changes the game brehs. Confirmation that the Lannister, Freys, and Boltons were the only people responsible for the Red Wedding. Confirming that Melisandre is playing Stannis with parlor tricks to who knows what end. The fire visions are real, the magic is now in question.

 

[Bud Bundy]

Bran, Rickon, Arya, and Sansa are all still alive (and un-cat is sort of alive). does any other house/set have so many POV characters? I don't think the Starks were just fodder in this story

I agree Tyrion is a major character, and I'm not sure where he fits. I don't like the idea that him, Danny, and Jon are all Targaryens, and that's what the story is about. the Targaryens were an inbreeding monarchy, and not without their own flaws

again, I'm looking at this from 'outside the box' as far as story progression, finality, morals, etc. I agree that could be a fallacious way to look at it, but I expect the overall story to have a 'point'

edit: speaking of who's still 'alive'. last we saw Jon he was getting stabbed in a place that's usually considered fatal...

The only character who could revive that house is Ricckon or an out of left field Jon Snow so we shall see where that goes.

 

[beanz]

@beanz @daze23 holy shyt....

We were arguing in the show thread about the morality of Stannis and the blood magic. Well I justsaw something that completely absolves him in the deaths of Robb, Balon, and Joffrey.

There is an official app for iOS called The World Of Ice and Fire. There are certain things the app confirms such as Bloodraven being Bran's dude and Robb's will legitimizing Jon and namong him heir. Well...the app also states that Melisandre had already seen the deaths of the 3 kings on her fires, and she used the leeches merely to trick Stannis into thinking she killed them so she could convince him to let her burn Edric Storm


This completely changes the game brehs. Confirmation that the Lannister, Freys, and Boltons were the only people responsible for the Red Wedding. Confirming that Melisandre is playing Stannis with parlor tricks to who knows what end. The fire visions are real, the magic is now in question.

i dont have an iphone so i cant get that app, but definitely does change things. thats a crazy new twist tho, im surprised they put that out there without putting that reveal in the book.

 

[Adam3000]

i dont have an iphone so i cant get that app, but definitely does change things. thats a crazy new twist tho, im surprised they put that out there without putting that reveal in the book.

It's called something different on Android...its called "A Game of Thrones Guide"...its the same app though, once you download it the name is World of Ice and Fire. Costs $5 to unlock all the book content, it lists every character and place and house in the book and describes their role in the story. The character list takes forever to scroll it is so extensive

The app is put together by the pair from Westeros.org who work with GRRM on editing the books. They are also writing a World of Fire and Ice book to be released some time in the future

It isn't the only thing they confirm in the app, it also confirms that Robb named Jon his heir in his will and a few other small things.

 

[beanz]

It's called something different on Android...its called "A Game of Thrones Guide"...its the same app though, once you download it the name is World of Ice and Fire. Costs $5 to unlock all the book content, it lists every character and place and house in the book and describes their role in the story. The character list takes forever to scroll it is so extensive

The app is put together by the pair from Westeros.org who work with GRRM on editing the books. They are also writing a World of Fire and Ice book to be released some time in the future

It isn't the only thing they confirm in the app, it also confirms that Robb named Jon his heir in his will and a few other small things.

that last bit i figured to be what was in the will, i cant wait to see how its gonna come into play.

 

[duncanthetall]

Brehs, I dunno what the general concensus was for Dance with Dragons, but I'm nearing the end, and its gotten a lot better than I thought it was at first. Its gotten a shyt load more interesting. Just finished Asha's chapter where the banker showed up to Stannis with Theon, fake Arya, and Asha's people. Brehs. Hope that nikka Karstark gets burrrrrrrned. I mean, I'm pretty sure they had instructed the banker with the information to tell Stannis. Crazy how he got there in time, but I guess they've been waiting there in the "horrible storm" which actually seems to have saved their lives.

Starting a chapter with Victarion. I hope this dude doesn't die a lame death or die at all, man. This dude might need to calm down with the whole banging Dany thing, but he definitely deserves to serve her.