Yahoo Sports: “A closer look at MJ’s 1988 DPOY raises questions about its validity”

[ItWasWritten]

1. So Tom has access to 6 games, that nobody else on the world has, which he had to go to Europe to get, and do his personal tally - got it

2. Tom used 6 games, to account for a whole 82 game season - oh ok makes sense

3. If he did this for Mike, he would then need to go through every defensive player of the year runner up for that season and record and tally his findings - he himself has Eaton on the list who finished second that year , makes zero sense to not verify his as well

4. Michael Jordan lead the league in steals 3 times - he only one 1 defensive player of the year award - Steals and blocks ≠ DPOY

Rudy Gobert has now won DPOY 4x, he’s lead the league in blocks I think once

The top 3 steals leaders in nba history are Stockton, Chris Paul and Jason Kidd - none of them have a DPOY - I don’t think they’ve ever even been considered

But when nerds base their whole identify in stats they always come out looking foolish

Case in point:



Y’all really nerds dictate these talking points but when they get pressured they fold

5. I wonder how come Tom didn’t look more closely into the rookie of the year award that should have went to Carmelo ?

Why Carmelo Anthony Should Have Beaten LeBron James for NBA Rookie of the Year in 2004

A look back on why Carmelo Anthony should have won the 2004 NBA Rookie of the Year award over LeBron James.

www.sportscasting.com

Or perhaps look into why when the lakers were flailing, the refs stepped in with an astronomical gift to lakers in the form of free throw disparity - the likes of which I don’t think I’ve ever seen

https://fadeawayworld.net/lakers-massive-lead-free-throw-differential-last-season-including-playoffs

Or, maybe go back to 2020, when lebron was “pissed off” about his mvp first place votes not being enough, despite Anthony Davis leading the team in like 7 categories - did Lebron forget that AD completely changed their team from the year before ? Why didn’t AD get those votes ?

Ah, I know why

A quick twitter search and I found this

https://twitter.com/el_jefe562/status/1804596165574541546?s=46

Can we get some tape on that ?

 

[Professor Emeritus]

Build a team in 2k or real life? What track record has LeBron demonstrated that he’s someone to build a sustainable team around?

The fact that he's won titles with 3 completely different rosters and gone to the Finals with 3 other rosters?

First-run Cavs never even tried to build a "sustainable" team around him, they didn't add a single worthwhile long-term piece in his 7 years there. Heat were built around Wade whose injury issues meant that he was on his last legs. 2nd run Cavs were built around Kyrie who

He is an hired gun for short team volatile success rather than a set the culture dynasty leader like MJ, Magic, Bird, Kobe, Steph and Tim.

The shyt y'all convince yourself of is so fukking stupid.

Every player you named was lucky enough to be drafted onto a team (or in Magic and Kobe's case, force their way onto one) who put talented young pieces around them. Put Bron on those same teams and exactly what would keep them from being sustainable? Bron has NEVER had that sort of young talent around him except for Kyrie/Love, and Kyrie broke that up himself by being a head case.

LOL at you including Kobe, whose "dynasties" only lasted 3 years each, and the first one wasn't even built around him, it was built around Shaq. How was that "sustainable" success?

 

[Professor Emeritus]

Agree with this.

I think MJ has fewer blemishes on his resume, so he's better in that sense.

Yeah, I was thinking after I said that, which is more important? Fewer blemishes or higher highs? It could go either way, but MJ's highs are close enough to Bron that I think fewer blemishes would win out with most people.

However if you're picking one guy to build a team with, Bron seems like the best choice because of his versatility. Magic Johnson but bigger, more athletic, a better defender and better scorer.....Magic (I think) was tougher mentally....closer to MJ in that sense but not as much of a psychopath.

I'm not sure where you get "tougher mentally" from. Magic had the season he was feuding with his teammates, the complete collapse against the 40-42 Moses Rockets, and the Tragic Johnson series where he had major mental errors near the end of almost every loss. Got beat by 2nd-year Hakeem when the Lakers were at their peak too.

1980s just had fewer cable shoes and internet forums to drive all the hot takes.

 

[Professor Emeritus]

1. So Tom has access to 6 games, that nobody else on the world has, which he had to go to Europe to get, and do his personal tally - got it

He didn't say anywhere that "nobody else on the world" has access to these games.

And are you suggesting that he's lying regarding what he found in those games? He detailed which games they were and what he found, anyone with access to those games can check him on that. He's a journalist, if he's lying then it would fukk up his career.

2. Tom used 6 games, to account for a whole 82 game season - oh ok makes sense

First off, home games are what matter, so it's 41 games not 82. You're not even paying attention.

He used statistics to account for the whole season. The stats showed that MJ was being credited with FAR more steals and blocks at home than on the road. He used the 6-game sample to confirm visually what appeared true statistically - 16 of the steals in those 6 games alone were gifted to him. So the statistical evidence that 70-80 steals might have been gifted to him over 41 home games was confirmed by the visual evidence of 16 fake steals in just 6 games.

3. If he did this for Mike, he would then need to go through every defensive player of the year runner up for that season and record and tally his findings - he himself has Eaton on the list who finished second that year , makes zero sense to not verify his as well

Once again, statistically he showed MJ getting 70+ more steals and 40+ more blocks at home than on the road. None of the runners-up had even as close as large a disparity. So what would he have to "confirm"?

4. Michael Jordan lead the league in steals 3 times - he only one 1 defensive player of the year award - Steals and blocks ≠ DPOY

That was the only season Jordan averaged 3+ steals, and it was also his career high in blocks. More important, it was the season after he had openly bytched about not winning DPOY and complained that Cooper didn't have as many steals/blocks as he did. So yes, steals and blocks DID drive the narrative that year.

Rudy Gobert has now won DPOY 4x, he’s lead the league in blocks I think once

The top 3 steals leaders in nba history are Stockton, Chris Paul and Jason Kidd - none of them have a DPOY - I don’t think they’ve ever even been considered

It's not the 1980s anymore. Steals and blocks mattered a lot more back then. Outside of Michael Cooper, every winner from 1984-1989 was either the steals leader or the blocks leader....and the one time it wasn't the steals leader, MJ bytched about it.

 

[10bandz]

1. So Tom has access to 6 games, that nobody else on the world has, which he had to go to Europe to get, and do his personal tally - got it

2. Tom used 6 games, to account for a whole 82 game season - oh ok makes sense

3. If he did this for Mike, he would then need to go through every defensive player of the year runner up for that season and record and tally his findings - he himself has Eaton on the list who finished second that year , makes zero sense to not verify his as well

4. Michael Jordan lead the league in steals 3 times - he only one 1 defensive player of the year award - Steals and blocks ≠ DPOY

Rudy Gobert has now won DPOY 4x, he’s lead the league in blocks I think once

The top 3 steals leaders in nba history are Stockton, Chris Paul and Jason Kidd - none of them have a DPOY - I don’t think they’ve ever even been considered

But when nerds base their whole identify in stats they always come out looking foolish

Case in point:



Y’all really nerds dictate these talking points but when they get pressured they fold

5. I wonder how come Tom didn’t look more closely into the rookie of the year award that should have went to Carmelo ?

Why Carmelo Anthony Should Have Beaten LeBron James for NBA Rookie of the Year in 2004

A look back on why Carmelo Anthony should have won the 2004 NBA Rookie of the Year award over LeBron James.

www.sportscasting.com

Or perhaps look into why when the lakers were flailing, the refs stepped in with an astronomical gift to lakers in the form of free throw disparity - the likes of which I don’t think I’ve ever seen

https://fadeawayworld.net/lakers-massive-lead-free-throw-differential-last-season-including-playoffs

Or, maybe go back to 2020, when lebron was “pissed off” about his mvp first place votes not being enough, despite Anthony Davis leading the team in like 7 categories - did Lebron forget that AD completely changed their team from the year before ? Why didn’t AD get those votes ?

Ah, I know why

A quick twitter search and I found this

https://twitter.com/el_jefe562/status/1804596165574541546?s=46

Can we get some tape on that ?

Klutch nerds will forever hold an L

 

[10bandz]

He didn't say anywhere that "nobody else on the world" has access to these games.

And are you suggesting that he's lying regarding what he found in those games? He detailed which games they were and what he found, anyone with access to those games can check him on that. He's a journalist, if he's lying then it would fukk up his career.






First off, home games are what matter, so it's 41 games not 82. You're not even paying attention.

He used statistics to account for the whole season. The stats showed that MJ was being credited with FAR more steals and blocks at home than on the road. He used the 6-game sample to confirm visually what appeared true statistically - 16 of the steals in those 6 games alone were gifted to him. So the statistical evidence that 70-80 steals might have been gifted to him over 41 home games was confirmed by the visual evidence of 16 fake steals in just 6 games.






Once again, statistically he showed MJ getting 70+ more steals and 40+ more blocks at home than on the road. None of the runners-up had even as close as large a disparity. So what would he have to "confirm"?






That was the only season Jordan averaged 3+ steals, and it was also his career high in blocks. More important, it was the season after he had openly bytched about not winning DPOY and complained that Cooper didn't have as many steals/blocks as he did. So yes, steals and blocks DID drive the narrative that year.






It's not the 1980s anymore. Steals and blocks mattered a lot more back then. Outside of Michael Cooper, every winner from 1984-1989 was either the steals leader or the blocks leader....and the one time it wasn't the steals leader, MJ bytched about it.

he ignored the twitter link

 

[scarhead]

Lebron is in my Mt. Rushmore so no hate but it’s just funny the length Lebron stans have to go and the efforts they have to put in all in a desperate attempt to discredit MJ’s GOAT status whereas, one can easily just pull up 2011 Finals footages in HD where Bron was in his prime athletic years and had star studded roster but folded to the Mavs.

Again, although MJ is my GOAT, I do believe LBJ is an all time great to me that’s anywhere from Top 2 to 5 depending on how I feel like looking at things and I rarely comment on these stan wars threads but it’s just funny to see paragraphs upon paragraphs and pages and pages of back and forths…like damn yall need to go outside and get some fresh air.

And please don’t quote me. I have no further interest outside of these 2 cents. If you believe Lebron is the GOAT, that’s cool with me too.

 

[Everythingg]

Yes you will defend a lie. I already said you can find a few games. Youve been saying since yesterday that you can find all 41 home games easily online and that he cherry picked games to prove his point. You said he only used certain games because they cant be verified. Youve been saying this with no idea of what your talking about you just assumed we could find all of the games online which you cant. then based your theory to defend Mj on that. You also keep asking the same questions repeatedly after ive already answered them. He answered the question youre asking and ive told you what he said. Not what i think but what he said. This started from Jaren Jacksons dpoy numbers. People thought his defensive stats were cooked so they went through and checked them and found out it wasnt "home cooking". So he got the idea after that to check the most historic statistical dpoy award which to his knowledge was the 88 Mj award. Mj wasnt singled out he had the most historic statistical dpoy season so thats why it was chosen. And his opinion on kobe is his opinion just like your opinion on Lebron is your opinion. i havent dodged anything im just tired of repeating answers ive given you just because you dont like the answers. Almost Everyone in this thread jordan fan or not and many reliable sources admit "home cooking" happened and its a hot topic now because many people including myself didnt know it was going on.


Edit: If they did the same for any nba player i would say they cheated for them too including lebron. The assists are too subjective. 1 person can say it is an assist and another can say it isnt and it isnt cheating because it’s so subjective. Giving 24 second violations to someone as a steal is not subjective it’s cheating.

Yea I thought games were more readily available and they’re not. So what? I found up to 5 games by lazily trying for 5 mins but a “reporter” with NBA ties couldnt so he had to go all the way to Eastern Europe to find film? I even said throw out MJ winning the DPOY, MJ still eclipses everything Bron did in his career by the achievements of KDs top 3 SF of all time HoF career. All Lebron has over MJ is longevity and that’s with questionable connections to steroids.

The “reporting” Tomcat did on Kobe/Dirk showed that he was uses stats to push an agenda. When the stats said Dirk > Kobe he wanted to report it as proof but when it said Rudy Gay > Dirk/Kobe he didn’t. Thats agenda pushing and that’s the same shyt he’s trying to pull here. Questioning MJs DPOY, saying Lebron is chasing MJ, then implying Lebron was “robbed” of DPOY shows what he was trying to do and other star had the achievements of previous stars diminished so that they could be elevated until Lebron.

 

[RoCKetSity256]

Yea I thought games were more readily available and they’re not. So what? I found up to 5 games by lazily trying for 5 mins but a “reporter” with NBA ties couldnt so he had to go all the way to Eastern Europe to find film? I even said throw out MJ winning the DPOY, MJ still eclipses everything Bron did in his career by the achievements of KDs top 3 SF of all time HoF career. All Lebron has over MJ is longevity and that’s with questionable connections to steroids.

The “reporting” Tomcat did on Kobe/Dirk showed that he was uses stats to push an agenda. When the stats said Dirk > Kobe he wanted to report it as proof but when it said Rudy Gay > Dirk/Kobe he didn’t. Thats agenda pushing and that’s the same shyt he’s trying to pull here. Questioning MJs DPOY, saying Lebron is chasing MJ, then implying Lebron was “robbed” of DPOY shows what he was trying to do and other star had the achievements of previous stars diminished so that they could be elevated until Lebron.

nothing against you personally i just know you arent credible. you will definitely lie. You fabricated a whole story to defend mj thats "so what". You keep comparing mj and lebron not me. They cheated for mj they juiced his stats up. Get over it breh. your opinon of Lebron is your opinion his opinion of kobe is his opinion neither bothers me. like whoever you like.

 

[Everythingg]

nothing against you personally i just know you arent credible. you will definitely lie. You fabricated a whole story to defend mj thats "so what".

It’s more about the medias credibility and understanding if information they’re presenting is being given with an agenda in mind. In this case (as usual when it comes to Bron) it was…

You keep comparing mj and lebron not me. They cheated for mj they juiced his stats up. Get over it breh. your

The author compared MJ and Bron. That’s why he questioned the DPOY MJ had, implied Lebron got robbed of one, and put Lebron chasing (MJ) the ghost in the title. And yes you’ve already said home players got home cooking.

opinon of Lebron is your opinion his opinion of kobe is his opinion neither bothers me. like whoever you like.

Opinions don’t bother me either. Now the media presenting skewed information to lead people in a certain direction that benefits them or the ones that pay them? Well yea that bothers me. And that was my point. That this piece was about diminishing MJ to boost Bron. If you rather focus on a league that home cooked, MJ was also home cooked for then that’s cool too I guess….

 

[fifth column]

The fact that he's won titles with 3 completely different rosters and gone to the Finals with 3 other rosters?

First-run Cavs never even tried to build a "sustainable" team around him, they didn't add a single worthwhile long-term piece in his 7 years there. Heat were built around Wade whose injury issues meant that he was on his last legs. 2nd run Cavs were built around Kyrie who







The shyt y'all convince yourself of is so fukking stupid.

Every player you named was lucky enough to be drafted onto a team (or in Magic and Kobe's case, force their way onto one) who put talented young pieces around them. Put Bron on those same teams and exactly what would keep them from being sustainable? Bron has NEVER had that sort of young talent around him except for Kyrie/Love, and Kyrie broke that up himself by being a head case.

LOL at you including Kobe, whose "dynasties" only lasted 3 years each, and the first one wasn't even built around him, it was built around Shaq. How was that "sustainable" success?

Stop typing and move around, Lebron has only served himself in the NBA. What has he done for the league as the face?

 

[FabTrey]

I love watching people talk about shyt they saw when they were 12 (probably more like 7) and pretending like they were learned students of the game.

Breh, when you were watching in real time you had NO fukkING IDEA who deserved the DPOY. How many Rockets games did you see that season? How many Jazz games? Talking about "I remember the whole season" when you saw other teams 1-2 times on national TV tops and didn't know what the fukk you were watching because you hadn't even gone through puberty yet and couldn't name a single set on offense or defense.

Come on now, this "We actually watched the games!" jumped the shark a long time ago.

I was born in 70s breh, and I knew a lot about the game growing up in a family of basketball addicts. I did nothing but watch basketball because my Pistons were contenders. Sure, I might not have seen every single Rockets or Jazz game, but I wasn't clueless either. Who didn't know about Hakeem or Eaton back then? All we ever talked about was basketball. I knew every top player by their jersey numbers and stat lines. I collected cards and talked hoops all the time. Life was simple: play basketball, watch basketball.

The DPOY was a merry-go-round award anyway. It was always the usual suspects, and MJ was always in the mix. No one cared if he finished 10th or 5th. The fact was, he was a beast on both ends.

As a lifelong Pistons fan, I never liked MJ early on, but he was different. Everybody knew he was different. No one questioned his greatness on both ends. So this revisionist history just makes us laugh. Back then, MJ really was that dude who walked on water. It's like questioning Ali's greatness. Who does that?

 

[Professor Emeritus]

I was born in 70s breh, and I knew a lot about the game

Breh, if you were both in 1975 then you were 12 years old when that season started, if you were born in 1979 then you were 8. There was zero chance that you were watching a game at 9-10 years old and could see jack shyt about who deserved DPOY from just watching the games, even teenagers are pretty ignorant about the intricacies of the game, much less children.

Sure, I might not have seen every single Rockets or Jazz game, but I wasn't clueless either. Who didn't know about Hakeem or Eaton back then?

There were only 15 nationally televised regular season NBA games on network TV that year. A few more on cable, but not many. It's unlikely that you saw more than 1-2 Houston or Utah games that entire year, if even that.

All we ever talked about was basketball. I knew every top player by their jersey numbers and stat lines. I collected cards and talked hoops all the time.

So you were going by stat lines just like we are now, except we have 10x as much information.

And we KNOW that MJ's stat lines were false now. Back in 1988, you thought they were legit.

The DPOY was a merry-go-round award anyway. It was always the usual suspects, and MJ was always in the mix.

MJ got ZERO votes for the All-Defensive teams the year before this breh. He ONLY became a candidate when he started bytching about deserving the award. So clearly your memory is faulty.

I never liked MJ early on, but he was different. Everybody knew he was different. No one questioned his greatness on both ends. So this revisionist history just makes us laugh. Back then, MJ really was that dude who walked on water.

MJ was great, but he was also the beneficiary of the biggest advertizing campaign starting from his rookie year. Of course he was the guy who "walked on water", you were besieged by a CONSTANT stream of advertizements telling you that he was different. No matter how good Michael Cooper or Mark Eaton or Hakeem Olajuwon were at defense, they weren't getting no ads like that.

So what makes you think, as a 9-10 year old inundated by that much advertizing and knowing so little about the defensive side of the game, that you could be objective at all regarding this issue?

 

[fifth column]

Breh, if you were both in 1975 then you were 12 years old when that season started, if you were born in 1979 then you were 8. There was zero chance that you were watching a game at 9-10 years old and could see jack shyt about who deserved DPOY from just watching the games, even teenagers are pretty ignorant about the intricacies of the game, much less children.







There were only 15 nationally televised regular season NBA games on network TV that year. A few more on cable, but not many. It's unlikely that you saw more than 1-2 Houston or Utah games that entire year, if even that.







So you were going by stat lines just like we are now, except we have 10x as much information.

And we KNOW that MJ's stat lines were false now. Back in 1988, you thought they were legit.







MJ got ZERO votes for the All-Defensive teams the year before this breh. He ONLY became a candidate when he started bytching about deserving the award. So clearly your memory is faulty.






MJ was great, but he was also the beneficiary of the biggest advertizing campaign starting from his rookie year. Of course he was the guy who "walked on water", you were besieged by a CONSTANT stream of advertizements telling you that he was different. No matter how good Michael Cooper or Mark Eaton or Hakeem Olajuwon were at defense, they weren't getting no ads like that.

So what makes you think, as a 9-10 year old inundated by that much advertizing and knowing so little about the defensive side of the game, that you could be objective at all regarding this issue?

Y’all Bron stans logic makes no sense when it comes to the marketing of MJ by Nike, Gatorade etc… which came 1st the chicken or the egg?

If MJ wasn’t different then where is the next campaign push behind another athlete to make them the goat? Lebron can’t sell no shoes like that and his game aesthetics is Karl Malone with a 40 vert. Plus ain’t nobody trying to be like a passive aggressive man child whose mentality weak when it comes to competition.

 

[Professor Emeritus]

Y’all Bron stans logic makes no sense when it comes to the marketing of MJ by Nike, Gatorade etc… which came 1st the chicken or the egg?

The team representing Jordan negotiated with Nike to focus their marketing campaign on him, rather than the shoe, before his rookie season even started.

Yes, MJ was an amazing player, but let's not forget that he was the #3 pick in the draft, we're not even talking about a consensus #1. But it was a combination of right timing (the 1980s were the perfect time to start personality-driven marketing), the right team behind him (if they hadn't pushed for an MJ-focused campaign, Nike would have done a traditional campaign), AND being a generational player.

If MJ wasn’t different then where is the next campaign push behind another athlete to make them the goat?

It happens all the time, but the ecosystem is far more flooded now. Back in the 1980s you had Nike's marketing team, you had the NBA itself, you had ESPN, and you had their broadcast partners. 90% of the national sports scene was driven by that small group, and they all had a vested interest in pushing Jordan. As cable talk shows proliferated and the internet became important, suddenly you had a lot more voices out there, and half of them are as interested in tearing down players as they are in pumping them up.