FukkaPaidEmail
Retired Hoodrat whisperer
This isn’t true at all.
Yahoo Sports: “A closer look at MJ’s 1988 DPOY raises questions about its validity”
- Thread starter HandyWithTheSteel
- Start date
Rell84shots
Veteran
I have never seen people work so hard to discredit one man in order to elevate another. The irony of these people talking about a machine being behind MJ, while trying to cook the books to help Lebron.
UpAndComing
Veteran
Yes it is. The Older fans pre-MJ say Kareem, Julius Erving, and Oscar Robertson is the GOAT
The younger crowd say that Lebron and Kobe are the GOAT. shyt just 2 years ago there's a young crowd who says Paul George is the GOAT
Julius Erving was the Michael Jordan of his day in the 70s/80s, and no one on this board even talks about him. It is what it is
viktordoomsecretwars
Superstar
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Sunalmighty
Superstar
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I see the author of "Nobody Touches Jordan" has entered the thread to offer his completely sane commentary.
They weren't the best defensive team that year (Pistons, Jazz, maybe Rockets were better) and they didn't have one of the worst rosters in the entire league. Charles Oakley was one of the best defensive big men inside, Dave Corzine was a solid rim protector inside, and Grant/Pippen were both already very good defensive players even though they were young. Having bigs like Oakley, Corzine, and Grant inside and then MJ and sometimes Pippen to disrupt on the perimeter is a great defensive lineup.....and they still weren't as good as the Pistons or the Jazz on that end.
Did you not read the analysis at all? MJ's home/road discrepancy was the largest by far, the others weren't even close.
"However, Jordan’s home/road disparities stood out even among his peers that season. According to Stathead.com, Jordan posted 165 steals at home (by far the most in the NBA) compared to just 94 on the road (tied for fourth). That gap of 71 steals blew away the competition, with the next largest gap among the top 15 league leaders in steals being 47."
"Though Jordan didn’t lead the league in blocks, a similar trend emerges in that key defensive category. Jordan’s 84 blocks at home ranked eighth most in the league, a highly unusual place to find a guard. On the road, his total of 47 blocks fell all the way down to 21st (tied), a more reasonable rung on the ladder for someone his size."
In road games, MJ's steals were no different than a ton of players - Fat Lever, Alvin Robertson, John Stockton, Mark Jackson, Clyde Drexler, Michael Adams, and Derek Harper. In fact, John Stockton had 11 more road steals than MJ and Fat Lever had 22 more road steals than MJ, and that's despite him openly trying to stat-pad steals all season long. It was only due to the massive home bias that Jordan outpaced everyone else in steals that season.
And his road blocks weren't impressive at all, just 1.1 a game. It was his ridiculous rate of home blocks that elevated his #'s. And since he was 8th in home blocks but just 21st in road blocks, it is clear that other players weren't benefitting from the same level of discrepancy.
So the author discounts the Bulls just coincidentally happened to be arguably the best defensive team in the NBA that year despite having one of the worst rosters in the entire league. Interesting.
They weren't the best defensive team that year (Pistons, Jazz, maybe Rockets were better) and they didn't have one of the worst rosters in the entire league. Charles Oakley was one of the best defensive big men inside, Dave Corzine was a solid rim protector inside, and Grant/Pippen were both already very good defensive players even though they were young. Having bigs like Oakley, Corzine, and Grant inside and then MJ and sometimes Pippen to disrupt on the perimeter is a great defensive lineup.....and they still weren't as good as the Pistons or the Jazz on that end.
His entire argument is based on counting stats and that the Bulls scorekeepers were homers. Just out of curiousity. Has he done similar analysis for other star defensive players that season as well?
Hakeem? You think the Houston Rockets scorekeepers were not homers as well, manipulating stats? Alvin Robertson? Cooper? Mark Eaton? You think the score keepers for their teams didn't manipulate?
Did you not read the analysis at all? MJ's home/road discrepancy was the largest by far, the others weren't even close.
"However, Jordan’s home/road disparities stood out even among his peers that season. According to Stathead.com, Jordan posted 165 steals at home (by far the most in the NBA) compared to just 94 on the road (tied for fourth). That gap of 71 steals blew away the competition, with the next largest gap among the top 15 league leaders in steals being 47."
"Though Jordan didn’t lead the league in blocks, a similar trend emerges in that key defensive category. Jordan’s 84 blocks at home ranked eighth most in the league, a highly unusual place to find a guard. On the road, his total of 47 blocks fell all the way down to 21st (tied), a more reasonable rung on the ladder for someone his size."
In road games, MJ's steals were no different than a ton of players - Fat Lever, Alvin Robertson, John Stockton, Mark Jackson, Clyde Drexler, Michael Adams, and Derek Harper. In fact, John Stockton had 11 more road steals than MJ and Fat Lever had 22 more road steals than MJ, and that's despite him openly trying to stat-pad steals all season long. It was only due to the massive home bias that Jordan outpaced everyone else in steals that season.
And his road blocks weren't impressive at all, just 1.1 a game. It was his ridiculous rate of home blocks that elevated his #'s. And since he was 8th in home blocks but just 21st in road blocks, it is clear that other players weren't benefitting from the same level of discrepancy.
so he was credited with a whopping 16 additional steals according to this dude? what other metrics were included in DPOY consideration 36 years ago? i guess this shifts the landscape of Jordan's legacy
16 additional steals in just the 5 games they had tape on is a huge number.
If the home/road discrepancy is any indication, it's more like 70 additional steals and 40 additional blocks over the course of the season. So if the road #'s reflect his true output, then he averaged 2.2 steals/game (4th in the league) and 1.1 blocks/game (21st in the league) that season, not the kind of #'s that would have led Jordan to getting the DPOY considering that he was a risk-taking defender who didn't lock anyone down like that.
FunkDoc1112
Heavily Armed
Bruh, how are you younger than me and not aware that defensive box plus minus and defensive win shares are the two most WORTHLESS advanced stats out thereI watched an uploaded at least 50 games from that season on Youtube before the NBA copyright Nazi's took down my channel.
Let me lay my ashes on this hit piece real quick.
Not only did Jordan deserve to win the award, he was the obvious , slam dunk choice, no pun intended.
(1) Led the league in defensive box plus/minus
(2) Led the league in steals. And became the only player to have 200+ steals and 100+ blocks in a season, tying his record from the previous season
(3) Had 131 blocks. No guard in NBA history has ever even come close to this. He had more blocks than 17 starting Centers
(4) Was 2nd in defensive win shares
And Jordan's defense had a clear impact on his team.
The Bulls were
1st in fewest points allowed per game -- Despite having no other great defensive player of note on the team. FACTS
3rd in defensive rating
The Bulls starting 5 in that season was --- Jordan, Oakley, Paxson, Brad Sellers, Dave Corzine and Horace Grant with a rookie Pippen coming off the bench.
Corzine was one of the worst defensive centers in the league. He was literally a cone and food for everyone in the paint.
Brad Sellers and Paxson were both terrible defenders. Horace Grant and Pippen were below average defenders as rookies.
Oakley was the only semi-good defender in the Bulls starting 5 and even he was very undersized and used to get dominated in the low-post by taller big men, which is one of the reasons the Bulls traded him for Bill Cartwright.
So Jordan was really the only great defender on his team and led his team to be arguably the best defensive team for that regular season while averaging 35ppg on 54% shooting. Someone is obviously not telling the truth here, namely Tom Habestrogh
Don't let these dudes on the Klutch Sports , LeBron payroll decieve you. "Home-biased" stats. What a mongrel. The entire point of this is to discredit Michael Jordan, its not sincerly written.
If that 1987/1988 season was played by ANY other player other than Michael Jordan it would not have been questioned. Strange how that works
Even the creator of Box Plus Minus said it's a horrible stat that should be ignored. You know who else leads the league in Defensive Box Plus Minus and Win Shares by a wide margin every year? NIKOLA fukkING JOKIC
It's because DBPM is literally just the leftovers from BPM-OBPM, and due to a quirk in how some of the stats are weighed for big men (the stat figures out a player's position by a % of box score stats they get when they're on the floor), Jokic's assist count actually inflates his defensive stats Even the face of CACalytics, Daryl Morey, has said all public facing defensive advanced stats are awful and even the internal ones NBA scouts and GMs use aren't any good either. Citing advanced stats that didn't even exist in 88 to make Jordan's "slam dunk" case is already dumb, but doubly so when it's defensive shyt. A perimeter player like Jordan's impact doesn't even compare to big men; and not only that, but MJ was an undisciplined gambler in 88 who actually got considerably better on defense AFTER his DPOY season.
Face the facts - MJ shyt on Michael Cooper, campaigned for DPOY based solely on steals and blocks, and then hunted those stats all year while the media vouched for him the whole time. And then they went right back to focusing on big men, as they should have.
Sunalmighty
Superstar
what im saying is, folks are making it seem as if THIS (steals) is the metric that got him DPOY. my question in another post was, what exactly placed a player in consideration for DPOY 36 years ago because it might be different today. thats all im saying, is it steals only or were there other things16 additional steals in just the 5 games they had tape on is a huge number.
If the home/road discrepancy is any indication, it's more like 70 additional steals and 40 additional blocks over the course of the season. So if the road #'s reflect his true output, then he averaged 2.2 steals/game (4th in the league) and 1.1 blocks/game (21st in the league) that season, not the kind of #'s that would have led Jordan to getting the DPOY considering that he was a risk-taking defender who didn't lock anyone down like that.
It was though.
As was already pointed out, Jordan didn't even make the All-Defensive team the previous year. He wasn't a lockdown defender at all. His case was built entirely on those steal/block #'s, without those there is no way he is being picked over guys like Hakeem and Eaton.
Once again, as others have already pointed out to you the steals/blocks numbers were a BIGGER part of the conversation 36 years ago, not less. Back then, a lot of voters used to just look at box score stats without nearly the nuance they do today.
FunkDoc1112
Heavily Armed
Steals, blocks and rebounds pretty much. Different time, also defense really wasn't taken seriously until the Bad Boy Pistons started scheming to stop MJ; rim protection was seen as the most important part of defense; you'd have to be exceptional with man-to-man D to get it as a guard.
The whole shyt with MJ started cuz Michael Cooper won DPOY in 87 because he would lock up other team's opposing guards, and then MJ was like "
But I had way more steals than him, that's not fair" in an interview at the start of the next season. Remember how Derrick Rose did his whole "Why can't I be MVP?" thing before the 2010-11 season? Similar thing here. He planted the seed and by his own admission, started trying to run the steals #'s up
This. Mike was that nikka but the score keeper was WILDIN
Sunalmighty
Superstar
It was though.
As was already pointed out, Jordan didn't even make the All-Defensive team the previous year. He wasn't a lockdown defender at all. His case was built entirely on those steal/block #'s, without those there is no way he is being picked over guys like Hakeem and Eaton.
Once again, as others have already pointed out to you the steals/blocks numbers were a BIGGER part of the conversation 36 years ago, not less. Back then, a lot of voters used to just look at box score stats without nearly the nuance they do today.
aside from winning the DPOY, he did receive DPOY VOTES 8 additional seasons though. wasn't lock down at all may be a bit of a stretch.
Before that season, he had only received a single vote for DPOY his entire career and hadn't gotten a single vote for the All-Defensive teams.
The votes he got after that season were BECAUSE OF the false image his stats had created. MJ was a good, disruptive defender, but he wasn't a lockdown defender on the same level as the top defenders in the league like Michael Cooper or Gary Payton were.
If you think he was lockdown, can you give an example?