Wilt Chamberlain and Jordan had an argument about who was the goat at the 50 greatest(no kobe stans)

[William F. Russell]

The issue with this entire debate is that you're acting like you can control for all of these factors. Since we don't have a time travel machine, there can be no verifiable objective sense of which players are better than others in vastly different eras. Essentially, the only real way to talk about this debate is to judge players by their performance in the context in which they played. No player ever has dominated the talent pool he had to play with before or since Wilt. Given his circumstances, he performed the best over his career, greater than any other player in their respective context. Therefore, there is a definite argument for Wilt being #1.

Wilt wasn't even the best player of his era. :GhostfaceStare:

Unless you're talking about "best" player purely in the sense of talent, with accolades and accomplishments set aside. Then you'd have one hell of an argument.

But even then, Wilt was always outplayed in the biggest games (i.e., him having the reputation of "wilting" in the finals,etc.). He didn't even have as many MVPs as his (superior) contemporary, Bill Russell, nevermind championship rings.

 

[Professor Emeritus]

The issue with this entire debate is that you're acting like you can control for all of these factors. Since we don't have a time travel machine, there can be no verifiable objective sense of which players are better than others in vastly different eras. Essentially, the only real way to talk about this debate is to judge players by their performance in the context in which they played. No player ever has dominated the talent pool he had to play with before or since Wilt. Given his circumstances, he performed the best over his career, greater than any other player in their respective context. Therefore, there is a definite argument for Wilt being #1.

But he didn't.

Name ONE postseason where Wilt offensively dominated his completion in a manner that proves he's the GOAT.

Hell, if "Dominating the competition" is the criteria, why the hell ain't George Mikan in more of these GOAT conversations?

The myth of Wilt Chamberlain's unstoppable offense

 

[sfgiants]

But Kobe healed bring 5 titles to LA

so did derek fisher

 

[VegasCAC]

Wilt wasn't even the best player of his era. :GhostfaceStare:

Unless you're talking about "best" player purely in the sense of talent, with accolades and accomplishments set aside. Then you'd have one hell of an argument.

But even then, Wilt was always outplayed in the biggest games (i.e., him having the reputation of "wilting" in the finals,etc.). He didn't even have as many MVPs as his (superior) contemporary, Bill Russell, nevermind championship rings.

Best player debates are about individual awards and accomplishments. In terms of who you would want anchoring your team, I think Russell has to be considered the GOAT. But in terms of individual basketball ability, Wilt was by far the best of his era.

But he didn't.

Name ONE postseason where Wilt offensively dominated his completion in a manner that proves he's the GOAT.

Hell, if "Dominating the competition" is the criteria, why the hell ain't George Mikan in more of these GOAT conversations?

The myth of Wilt Chamberlain's unstoppable offense

Wilt ran into Boston superteams in the postseason during most of his prime. Besides that, that's sort of a narrow criteria to determine GOATness: the regular season matters just as much. Don't be one of those "Ringzzzzzz" retards, everyone with a brain knows that postseason success is primarily based on team play.

But even disregarding that, in 63-64 he averaged 34 pts 25 boards on 54% shooting. That's GOAT level. There's one.

Mikan should be in some of these conversations IMO.

Of course there isn't, however one can use reason and logic to make sense of the distorted picture by weighing up all the conditions. Those conditions being the state of competition, TP, pace/style of play and development of schemes.


Except this is not true at all. He has a less than impressive postseason resume (both individually and from a team perspective), when you compare him to the likes of Jordan, Cap, LeBron and Shaq.

There are too many differences to make any sense of the "distorted picture". Any attempt at objective analysis of players over 70 years of the sport is foolhardy because there are uncountable factors you have to, and can't control for. Stop trying to make any definitive claims comparing players that played 50 years apart, it's wild conjecture.

Team success is inconsequential to this debate. But let's talk about individual statistics.

Wilt's career total postseason averages are 22.5ppg 24.5rpg, and 4apg on 52% shooting.

Shaq's are 24ppg, 11rpg, 3apg on 56% shooting.

Cap's are 18ppg, 10rpg, 2.3 apg on 48% shooting.

Jordan's are 33ppg, 6.4rpg, and about 6 apg on 48.7% shooting.


Wilt is at least comparable if not downright superior in terms of individual postseason performance to all of those players.

 

[William F. Russell]

Best player debates are about individual awards and accomplishments. In terms of who you would want anchoring your team, I think Russell has to be considered the GOAT. But in terms of individual basketball ability, Wilt was by far the best of his era.



Wilt ran into Boston superteams in the postseason during most of his prime. Besides that, that's sort of a narrow criteria to determine GOATness: the regular season matters just as much. Don't be one of those "Ringzzzzzz" retards, everyone with a brain knows that postseason success is primarily based on team play.

But even disregarding that, in 63-64 he averaged 34 pts 25 boards on 54% shooting. That's GOAT level. There's one.

Mikan should be in some of these conversations IMO.



There are too many differences to make any sense of the "distorted picture". Any attempt at objective analysis of players over 70 years of the sport is foolhardy because there are uncountable factors you have to, and can't control for. Stop trying to make any definitive claims comparing players that played 50 years apart, it's wild conjecture.

Team success is inconsequential to this debate. But let's talk about individual statistics.

Wilt's career total postseason averages are 22.5ppg 24.5rpg, and 4apg on 52% shooting.

Shaq's are 24ppg, 11rpg, 3apg on 56% shooting.

Cap's are 18ppg, 10rpg, 2.3 apg on 48% shooting.

Jordan's are 33ppg, 6.4rpg, and about 6 apg on 48.7% shooting.


Wilt is at least comparable if not downright superior in terms of individual postseason performance to all of those players.

People truly underestimate the athleticism and skill of Russell. He was just as good an athlete and basketball as Wilt. And his postseason averages were just as good, if not better than Wilt's.

 

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

There are too many differences to make any sense of the "distorted picture". Any attempt at objective analysis of players over 70 years of the sport is foolhardy because there are uncountable factors you have to, and can't control for. Stop trying to make any definitive claims comparing players that played 50 years apart, it's wild conjecture.

You can make definitive claims on what 'conditions' certain players benefited from. It most certainly isn't conjecture. You sound like somebody who doesn't know their history or doesn't know how to use some cotdamn sense.

But let's talk about individual statistics.

Wilt's career total postseason averages are 22.5ppg 24.5rpg, and 4apg on 52% shooting.

Shaq's are 24ppg, 11rpg, 3apg on 56% shooting.

Cap's are 18ppg, 10rpg, 2.3 apg on 48% shooting.

Jordan's are 33ppg, 6.4rpg, and about 6 apg on 48.7% shooting.


Wilt is at least comparable if not downright superior in terms of individual postseason performance to all of those players.

Wilt played in the fastest-paced era in history, where the league average FGA was between 100-110 a game. He had more possessions against worse defenses while averaging 46-47 minutes a game. You can't just take their raw box score #s without appying the right context. A general minute/pace equalizer and his box score #s would pale in comparison - especially since both Shaq's and Cap's playoff averages are weighed down by playing into their late-30s (Wilt average 47 mins in the PS, whereas Shaq and Kareem only averaged 37 mins).

Furthermore, the difference between Shaq's, Jordan's and Cap's respective regular season and playoff #s are nearly identical, whereas Wilt's drop from 23.6 ppg per 36 mins in the regular season to 17.2 ppg per 36 mins in the post season - that's a 27.2% drop off.

Jordan averaged 28 ppg per 36 mins in the postseason
Kareem averged 23.4 ppg per 36 mins in the postseason
Shaq averaged 23.3 ppg per 36 mins in the postseason
LeBron averages 23.9 ppg per 36 mins in the postseason
Hakeem aveages 23.5 ppg per 36 mins in the postseason
Wilt averaged 17.2 ppg per 36 mins in the post season.

And that's even BEFORE we take into account the difference in pace, competition/TP and development of players/schemes, that Wilt benefitted from over those aforementioned players. Wilt was not dominating his peers more than his top-5 OAT counterparts like you're claiming.

 

[Professor Emeritus]

Wilt ran into Boston superteams in the postseason during most of his prime. Besides that, that's sort of a narrow criteria to determine GOATness: the regular season matters just as much. Don't be one of those "Ringzzzzzz" retards, everyone with a brain knows that postseason success is primarily based on team play.

No, the regular season does NOT matter "just as much". How you perform against shytty teams when everyone is playing at 70% effort is NOT as important as how you perform against elite teams when everyone is playing at 100% effort. And in the fukking 1960s, you couldn't even call regular season basketball 40% effort on the defensive end - they ran up and down the court shooting the first shot they got and straight didn't give a shyt.

But even disregarding that, in 63-64 he averaged 34 pts 25 boards on 54% shooting. That's GOAT level. There's one.

So 1964 is the absolute best you could come up with?

First off, in 1964 the lane was only 12 feet wide. So Wilt Chamberlain could park himself right next to the basket and they practically dunk from there without even having to step in the lane. Can you imagine how much Shaq would dominate in a fukking 12-foot wide lane where he could just sit next to the basket all game? There was a reason they moved the lane out to 16 feet the next year.

In 1964 Wilt only played two rounds of playoffs.

First, he was matched up against 6’9”, 225lb 2nd-year center Zelmo Beaty and 6'9" 205lb White guy Bob Pettit. There were actual centers who only weighed 200 pounds in 1964. Wilt averaged 39ppg, but the Warriors only barely won the series in seven games.

Then he was matched up against 6'10", 215lb Bill Russell (no one else in the Celtics' top-8 was over 6'7"). Wilt averaged 29ppg but they got washed and the series was over in 5 games.

That's Wilt's greatest postseason. Winning 5 games and losing 7 while only facing ONE guy over 6'9".

How the hell is Wilt offensively unstoppable now when back in 1964, with a 12-foot wide lane and only one guy on the court over 6'7", he couldn't even break 30ppg while his team got rocked?


Here's some highlights from the best game of that Finals, which went 98-95 Celtics.


This the NBA Finals. This not a rec league game. This is the NBA Finals. This is not a rec league game. Try saying that to yourself over and over so you don't forget.





I gotta narrate the first three minutes.

0:24 - Wilt tips off against Russell who looks like he's giving up 5 inches to him. Wilt fails to control the tip, but the Celtic it goes to loses control of the ball and a White Warrior get it, hilariously dribbling further into the backcourt while crouching and staring at the ball.

0:32 - Some White guy buries a 16-foot jump shot. His defender doesn't even leave his feet, doesn't put his hand up, doesn't challenge the shot at all. This is the basketball highlight of the first four minutes.

0:49 - WHAT DA fukk WAS THAT??? I can't even describe that - if some a$$hole tried that shyt in the gym with you you'd walk off the court and find a new team.

1:12 - Another White guy bricks an open jump shot (again, no challenge at all), and Wilt benefits from an extremely weak loose ball foul call on the rebound. This is the supposedly "physical" 1960s, right?

1:30 - Wilt barely even grazes the rim on the single worst-looking underhanded free throw I have ever seen in my life.

1:40 - I'm fukking dying at this point. A White Celtic just drove into the lane, kicked himself in the ass with his own feet, and missed the entire basket from only five feet away. He literally air-balled it from five feet without anyone even challenging. And the game just started so his legs are fresh! But Wilt doesn't box out, Russell gets the rebound and the put-back layup.

2:00 - Wilt sets up right at the edge of the key, which remember is only five feet from the hoop. They loft a pass to him, which Russell can't do anything about because he's just too short. Wilt catches the ball, takes one dribble while looking at the ball, then drops the ball in the basket. Russell doesn't even try to challenge the shot.

2:20 - The Celtics throw a pass to Russell posting up. Wilt appears to have been taking a nap. Russell misses the lay-in, which Wilt challenges by putting his arms around Russell's sides, but then gets the tip-in when Wilt doesn't even jump for the rebound.

2:30 - Warriors pretty hilariously bounce the ball off each other while passing in the wrong direction in an unforced error, but the Celtics don't get it, maybe because the attempted pass was so dumb it surprised even them.

2:40 - Warrior drives to the hole and loses the ball. Celtics get a fast-break lay-in on the other end.

3:00 - White Warrior drives to the hole in a give-and-go with Wilt, and hilariously slams the ball off the side of the backboard because the presence of Russell frightens him. Wilt gets the rebound and gets fouled.

Ref does a disco move in response to the foul that has me dying.

3:30 - Wilt completely bricks another underhand free throw.


The game goes on like that.

Someone gotta make gifs of this shyt.

Team success is inconsequential to this debate. But let's talk about individual statistics.

Wilt's career total postseason averages are 22.5ppg 24.5rpg, and 4apg on 52% shooting.

Shaq's are 24ppg, 11rpg, 3apg on 56% shooting.

Cap's are 18ppg, 10rpg, 2.3 apg on 48% shooting.

Jordan's are 33ppg, 6.4rpg, and about 6 apg on 48.7% shooting.

Wilt is at least comparable if not downright superior in terms of individual postseason performance to all of those players.

No he was not.

First off, you're ignoring that Wilt only shot 47% from the line, so bad it cost his team big games left and right.

Second, Wilt was the only one of those guys who played with a 12-foot lane. Wilt was the only one of those guys who played in an era were there fewer than 5 Black men in the entire league over 6'9". And Wilt was the only one of those guys who played 48 minutes/game in an up-and-down league where they just threw up shots left and right. After 1965, when they widened the lane and more big men and Black players started joining the league, Wilt only averaged 22ppg in two postseason runs with the Warriors and then 15.8ppg in five years with the Lakers. And that was STILL with a wildly inflated pace, as Gil pointed out.

Third, postseason success DOES matter. Of course your team matters too, but Wilt had some stacked teams during those runs. If he couldn't even dominate against a Celtics team that was pretty much playing ONE guy over 6'7", how the hell he going to be the GOAT in some other era?

Ya'all get moist about ppg and regular season scoring records. You ignore that fact that the actual play is a joke and the contribution to success is weak at best.

 

[LeMAO]

if Booker can score 70, im pretty sure Wilt can. here we go again with Wilt downplaying.

 

[GoFlipAPack]

so did derek fisher

 

[LeMAO]

It seems like every thread when Wilt Chamberlain is brought up there are bunch of up-votes to comments which espouse the beliefs of Bill Simmons. Bill Simmons is not the ultimate authority on basketball. Bill Simmons also was not around to watch Russell or Chamberlain play. Bill simmons isn't an unbiased subjective observer who should be cited as support in a debate.

Misconception #1
"Wilt only dominated because of his size and era"

Instead of analyzing the size of that era to modern times, I will instead use some other comparisons. Babe Ruth is considered by most baseball journalists to be the greatest baseball player ever. He played from 1918 to 1935 or nearly a century ago. He NEVER played a against African Americans or latinos. He played against vastly inferior competition and yet his stats are held in high regard and no one questions his ability. I compare him to Chamberlain because they both produced stats that were exponentially higher than the competion. Ruth's numbers were so ridiculous that they have only been approached by Players who were said to be using performance enhancing drugs (Bonds). Yet no one questions the legitimacy of those numbers.

When people think of wilt chamberlain they imagine some 60s version of shaq who just dunked on everyone. Wilt Chamberlain had a fully developed game. He had a jumpshot, fadeaway, and shot fingerolls. He was an excellent passer as well as defender. This was in addition to his vastly superior athletic abilities. Wilt Ultimate offensive force

Misonception # 2
"Wilt didn't perform in the playoffs"

Wilt Playoff Scoring

For Wilts career he averaged 30.1 ppg in the regular season and 22.5ppg in the playoffs. Some have used this evidence of a drop off in performance during playoff time This just simply isn't true. Wilt chamberlains career has 2 distinct halves. For the first half of his career he was a scoring machine. After this he matured into a player who was a defensive anchor and offensive facilitator. This is evidenced by a DRAMATIC decrease in FG attempted per game as well as the fact that he was a league leader in assists. In his first 4 years in the playoffs he averaged 28.3 FG attempts per game and 34.6 ppg. His next 4 years in the playoffs he averaged 18.2 FG attempts per game and 24.9ppg. Then for the final 5 seasons of his playoff career he averaged 11.4 fg attmepts per game and 15.8 ppg. His playoff number are skewed because the majority of the games were played during his "facilitator years". He played 52 playoff games during his "scoring machine era' where attempted a high number of Fgs per game, and he played 141 GAMES where during his "facilitator era" later in his career where he shot a SUBSTANIALLY less number of FGs per game.
Wilt Chamerlain Passing abilities
Besides scoring he posts pretty much the same number in rebounds and other major statistics.

Misconception #3
"Bill Russell shut Wilt down and was better than Wilt as evidenced by his 11 championship rings"
First of all PLAYERS DO NOT WIN CHAMPIONSHIPS, TEAMS DO. Lebron beasted in cleveland but couldn't win until he went to miami. Kevin garnett beasted in Mn but did not win until he to the celtics. Jordan beasted in the 80s but didn't succeed until pippen developed into a top 10 player. Russell had a vastly superior team throughout his career. According to win share Russells teamates were worth 11 more wins per season :Russell teamates. Russell had the benefit of playing for Red auerbach who is a top 3 greatest coach of all time while Wilt had a revolving door of coaches in his career. Russell also had the benefit of only being responsible for playing defense, While Wilt's teams relied on him for OFFENSE and DEFENSE.

Assorted Misconceptions
"Wilt wasn't respected among his peers who thought he was a poor teammate and competitor"
HOF Rick Barry on Wilt Chamberlain
"Wilt is playing better than I used to -- passing off, coming out to set up screens, picking up guys outside, and sacrificing himself for team play." -- Bill Russell, Great Moments in Pro Basketball, (by Sam Goldaper) p.24

"Wilt Chamberlain wasn't that strong and would get handled by shaq
Arnold Schwartzenegger on How strong Wilt was

crdeit to prince_D

 

[The_Third_Man]

hold on, people are saying Jordan wouldn't dominate in this era?

posters here talking about "the pool of talent" and "teams being stacked" in the 60s?


seriously?

 

[Ripp]

GOAT REQUIREMENTS

1st: Requirement: Has to score over 70+ in a game with actual video proof

2nd requirement: Has to win a ring

3rd requirement: Has to have a Finals MVP

Hmmm, has anyone ever done all 3?

The only GOAT requirement is to be named Micheal Jeffery Jordan

 

[dh86]

Why didn't they just guard Wilt with 6'4" guys then, if being 6'8" is as good as being 6'11"?

When 6'8" and 6'9" ballers were able to keep Wilt under control in the postseason and keep him from dominating offensively in the 1960s and 1970s, why not even taller, bigger, more skilled guys in the 2010s?

And there are FAR more tall guys with actual ability now than there were then. We were going over the lists in a previous thread - the Oklahoma City Thunder alone had twice as many tall guys with ability on their roster last year than the ENTIRE NBA had during Wilt's 50ppg season. Think about that.






Tristan Thompson is bigger, and a much better defender, than nearly all the centers that Wilt was failing to dominate the playoffs of the 1960s and 1970s. TT is 6'9" and 240lb and plays defense well. Give me the entire list of guys who were 6'9", 240lb and played defense well that Wilt "dominated".

And TT doesn't even have a dream of sniffing an all-star game as a center. Whereas when Wilt came into the league, there were all-star centers who were 6'7" and 6'8" who didn't have half of TT's athleticism.

If you were over 6'9" and Black and in the NBA in the early 1960s, there was a 50-50 chance you were going to the Hall of Fame. And if you weren't HOF you were probably still getting an All-star nod at some point unless you got into drugs/gangs. There were THAT few Black athletes allowed into the NBA back then. And Wilt still in the end only picked up two titles and wasn't even his team's leading scorer, or even close, in either one.

Every legitimate center in the league has run a train on Tristan this year lol what the fukk

 

[dh86]

Why didn't they just guard Wilt with 6'4" guys then, if being 6'8" is as good as being 6'11"?

When 6'8" and 6'9" ballers were able to keep Wilt under control in the postseason and keep him from dominating offensively in the 1960s and 1970s, why not even taller, bigger, more skilled guys in the 2010s?

And there are FAR more tall guys with actual ability now than there were then. We were going over the lists in a previous thread - the Oklahoma City Thunder alone had twice as many tall guys with ability on their roster last year than the ENTIRE NBA had during Wilt's 50ppg season. Think about that.

The man who won Finals MVP at age 35 vs a 24 year old Kareem and recieved offers to play until age 54 gets disrupted in his physical prime by Tristan Thompson in coli comedy

 

[PS5 Pro]

GOAT REQUIREMENTS

1st: Requirement: Has to score over 70+ in a game with actual video proof

2nd requirement: Has to win a ring

3rd requirement: Has to have a Finals MVP

Hmmm, has anyone ever done all 3?

Somebody get me back in the green so I can neg this fool

Spoiler

David Robinson? Even tho my gut is telling me Sean Elliott won the mvp that finals???