Why is it so hard for the Democratic Party to take accountability?

[Goat poster]

Most of you are hopeless


I'm done insulting myself by taking part in this debate.

Yall go ahead and go down with that weak ass ship known as the Democratic Party.

Yall nikkas is worse than Cleveland Browns fans

At least they hold the coaches and GM's accountable at times


Yall like battered and abused wives lashing out at sane folks that tell them they husband ain't shyt

 

[Outlaw]

Most of you are hopeless


I'm done insulting myself by taking part in this debate.

Yall go ahead and go down with that weak ass ship known as the Democratic Party.

Yall nikkas is worse than Cleveland Browns fans

At least they hold the coaches and GM's accountable at times


Yall like battered and abused wives lashing out at sane folks that tell them they husband ain't shyt

Why is it so hard for cacs to answer the question why their brethren vote for Republicans as a voting bloc?

Y’all want to talk about accountability but not look in the mirror

 

[Pull Up the Roots]

‘bad actor’ = ‘I can’t refute anything you said, so I’m gonna cry about it instead.’


If you actually had a point, you’d be refuting what I said instead of whining about "bad faith." Go ahead, explain how the dems, with every advantage (more money, more institutional power, a deeply unpopular opponent, favorable mainstream media coverage, a fear based narrative) except Twitter, still managed to fumble this hard. I’ll wait.
These idiots were actually out there parading fukking Liz Cheney around thinking that would get them votes

Oh, so we the voters are supposed to ‘hold Republicans accountable’… by doing what exactly? Voting for a Democratic Party that ran on nothing but ‘Orange Man Bad’ and still lost? , how does that even make sense?The Democrats held the White House, controlled the Senate, outspent Trump by hundreds of millions, and STILL couldn’t stop him. They had every advantage and still fumbled the bag. But somehow, it’s on us to "hold Republicans accountable"? With what? Hope? A sternly worded tweet? Let me give you a newsflash If the Democrats were actually competent, we wouldn’t be in this position. They ran a weak, uninspiring campaign, refused to deliver meaningful change, and expected people to show up out of fear rather than excitement. That’s not on the voters, that’s on them.

This is so silly. Why do you refuse to acknowledge the billions in free media Trump got from mainstream outlets, independent media, and so-called citizen journalists? You can't buy that kind of publicity. Elon Musk literally turned Twitter into Trump HQ, while Facebook, Instagram, and YouTube algorithms constantly boosted his content. Trump didn't need to spend big because he was getting wall-to-wall coverage for free. Your analysis isn't really worth much if you can't acknowledge this simple point.

FB/Instagram, Google/YouTube, Twitter and Amazon. All of the platform holders bent the knee and played a role in shaping reality on their platforms to favor him. If there was a way to break down all that free publicity, and estimate the monetary value, it would likely exceed the $6 billion from his 2016 campaign multiple times over, but you want to harp on the misleading notion that they outspent him.

And no, the Democrats didn't have "every advantage." That's a delusional take. They faced a hostile media environment. Major networks gave Trump a platform at every turn. Social media companies bent the knee and handed him the spotlight and an algorithm that favored him. Meanwhile, GOP state legislatures worked overtime to suppress Democratic voters through targeted voter ID laws, reduced polling locations, and aggressive gerrymandering.

Claiming Democrats had more institutional power in 2024 is just not true, either. Republicans controlled the Supreme Court with a 6-3 conservative super-majority that consistently ruled in their favor, while red state governors and attorney generals aggressively pushed voter suppression laws, voter roll purges, and legal challenges to federal policies. State legislatures were dominated by GOP trifectas that gave them control over election laws and redistricting. In Congress, they held the Senate, but it was a 50-50 split w/ a +1 tie-breaker - a slim majority. The reality is, outside of the White House, Republicans held far more power at every level of government. Suggesting otherwise is just gaslighting.

Favorable mainstream media coverage? You can't be serious. The media constantly scrutinized her while bending over backwards to normalize and "both sides" Trump. Instead of holding him accountable, they ran with the "Trump is more disciplined this time" narrative, while sane-washing him to make him more palatable. Every slip-up or misstep by Harris was amplified, while Trump's dangerous rhetoric was reported on as if he was a normal candidate. If anyone got favorable coverage, it was Trump.

Like, he was straight up pushing Nazi eugenics rhetoric and the MSM was whitewashing it.




As for the idea that Harris's campaign was just "Orange Man Bad," that's revisionist nonsense. The 2024 Democratic campaign focused heavily on unity, democracy, and protecting basic rights. They ran more positive ads about unification and policy proposals than negative attack ads, which you'd know if you actually paid attention.

In Michigan, her campaign ran ads that touted stronger labor and union support, lowering taxes on the middle-class, home-ownership initiatives, building more homes, paid family and medical leave and child-care funding, and they said they didn't want it and voted for Trump. fukk them. fukk anyone still pushing that bullshyt.

They were fukking stupid for pandering to Liz Cheney and the Never Trump crowd. Courting those people was a colossal waste of time. Propping up Bush-era war criminals like dikk Cheney and pretending Liz Cheney was some hero of democracy likely alienated some Dem voters while winning zero actual votes from those people, too. Appealing to people who will never vote for a Democrat was a ridiculous strategy that backfired. It's why I don't agree with you that we need to chase racist Trump voters.

 

[Drip Bayless]

fukk outta here. These clowns are eroding rights daily but you out here on some “if only the Dems DID” when “the Republicans ARE.”

JD Vance and company told you prior to the election that it was going to be about fukk your laws, we are going to do what we feel when elected. And they are doing so but your “lets give equal accountability to Dems” will be your daily tally.

That shyt is trash and I dont give two shyts about the dunderheads who cosign your dumb ass

You’re just repeating yourself ad nauseam
I have a litany of posts talking about how evil the Republicans are. Either you didn’t read them or you’re exhibiting a level of intellectual dishonesty that rivals Trump and his goons. Nor are you even able to make the most elementary of connections, that the dems incompetence is a large part of the circumstances that made way for the Republicans to seize such power. If I’m such an idiot it should be no problem for you and your ilk to explain why I’m wrong and explain why no one should ever blame a the democratic party for losing instead of repeating the same strawman that I’m a secret Trump supporter and the false dilemma that any one who criticizes the Democratic Party is a Trump supporter. You don’t prove someone is an idiot by calling them an idiot. You explain why they are wrong, y’all have a bunch of posts in here but then act like it’s beneath you or you don’t have time to form a logical argument. Anyway this will be my last post to you, it’s clear you are not capable of refuting a single thing I’ve said. Don’t bother posting I’ll write your next post below and save you the trouble, “Republicans are evil so we should never, ever, ever criticize the dems. I disagree with this so that makes me an idiot. End proof.”
Anyway I’m sure you won’t read any of this so here’s a meme. Let me speak to you in a language you might understand

 

[NYC Rebel]

You’re just repeating yourself ad nauseam
I have a litany of posts talking about how evil the Republicans are.

And my focus is around what they are currently doing and its consequences on my day to day.

You already revealed yourself when unable to understand government knowing the Republicans had the house and not bringing up how McConnel practically scammed the Judicial branch into their hands. Your timeline & understanding of government has long shown to be ass.

Dems have plenty of shortcomings, but to the degree of a party that has a willingness to cheat, buck the system, & cater to the lowest rung of American society that goes back to the origins of the slave codes.

 

[Drip Bayless]

FB/Instagram, Google/YouTube, Twitter and Amazon. All of the platform holders bent the knee and played a role in shaping reality on their platforms to favor him. If there was a way to break down all that free publicity, and estimate the monetary value, it would likely exceed the $6 billion from his 2016 campaign multiple times over, but you want to harp on the misleading notion that they outspent him.

And no, the Democrats didn't have "every advantage." That's a delusional take. They faced a hostile media environment. Major networks gave Trump a platform at every turn. Social media companies bent the knee and handed him the spotlight and an algorithm that favored him. Meanwhile, GOP state legislatures worked overtime to suppress Democratic voters through targeted voter ID laws, reduced polling locations, and aggressive gerrymandering.

Claiming Democrats had more institutional power in 2024 is just not true, either. Republicans controlled the Supreme Court with a 6-3 conservative super-majority that consistently ruled in their favor, while red state governors and attorneys general aggressively pushed voter suppression laws, voter roll purges, and legal challenges to federal policies. State legislatures were dominated by GOP trifectas that gave them control over election laws and redistricting. In Congress, it was a 50-50 split w/ a +1 tie-breaker. The reality is, outside of the White House, Republicans held far more power at every level of government. Suggesting otherwise is just gaslighting.

Favorable mainstream media coverage? You can't be serious. The media constantly scrutinized her while bending over backwards to normalize and "both sides" Trump. Instead of holding him accountable, they ran with the "Trump is more disciplined this time" narrative, while sane-washing him to make him more palatable. Every slip-up or misstep by Harris was amplified, while Trump's dangerous rhetoric was reported on as if he was a normal. If anyone got favorable coverage, it was Trump.

Like, he was straight up pushing Nazi eugenics rhetoric and the MSM was whitewashing it.




As for the idea that Harris's campaign was just "Orange Man Bad," that's revisionist nonsense. The 2024 Democratic campaign focused heavily on unity, democracy, and protecting basic rights. They ran more positive ads about unification and policy proposals than negative attack ads, which you'd know if you actually paid attention.




They were fukking stupid for pandering to Liz Cheney and the Never Trump crowd. Courting those people was a colossal waste of time. Propping up Bush-era war criminals like dikk Cheney and pretending Liz Cheney was some hero of democracy likely alienated some Dem voters while winning zero actual votes from those people, too. Appealing to people who will never vote for a Democrat was a ridiculous strategy that backfired. It's why I don't agree with you that we need to chase racist Trump voters.

First of all I repped you, we will likely have to agree to disagree but thank you for being one of the few here capable of engaging in a good faith debate without resorting to name-calling or parroting logical fallacies ad nauseum. It's refreshing to see someone actually address the points at hand and disheartening that out of all the detractors I was only able to conduct a debate with two people, I mean I know this is the internet and thecoli, but this thread is seven pages long and only two people were actually willing to debate me like adults. Very sad.

Now regarding your argument. I will concede that the acquisition of twitter by Musk was a huge obstacle for the dems. And when we factor in the billions spent on that acquisition and the fact that was a big part of Trump getting elected, we can consider that purchase price as part of the republicans campaign fundraising/spending. Regarding Google, Meta, and Amazon. Amazon is not a social media platform so I'm not sure why you grouped them in, we're talking about advertising not just Big Tech. Second, big tech bent the knee once Trump gained re-entry to office, not before the election was finished. They enacted these policies and donated to Trump's inauguration fund after he won. The tech oligarchs prioritize profit above all else, they would not choose a side unless they were absolutely sure they would be on the winning side. I would ask you provide evidence of Amazon, Google, and Meta, tipping the scales in Trump's favor prior to the election's conclusion. The proliferation of right wing content is not necessarily evidence of bias since these social media platforms prioritize engagement to drive profit and the algorithm reflects this. Look at all the podcasts Trump did, Nelk Boys, Rogan, Theo Von, Logan Paul, etc. And she went on "Call Her Daddy" (swear I've never heard that shyt in my life) and "All the Smoke" The fact that their content was boosted in my opinion has more to do with them tapping into the influencer market in a way the dems did not (see my examples from earlier about how they should've pivoted their strategy of spending on traditional ads when they witnessed the rise of several big podcasters like Joe Rogan shilling for Trump years before this election happened (Rogan was shilling all the way back in 2020). Overall leftist content is not promoted on YT, but the dems are no leftists.

As for the Democrats not having "every advantage," I will also concede that they did not have every advantage, they had most of them imo. I will cede your point about the Supreme court, that is correct that was an advantage in the GOP's favor. They were the incumbent party and held a majority in the Senate leading up to the election. That's a fact. They also had the backing of all mainstream media outlets except Fox News and a significant portion of the entertainment industry (Beyonce, Meg Thee Stallion, who were bigger names than any artists that shilled for the GOP). I will cede that they did not have all the advantages, but claiming they were at an overall disadvantage is disingenuous. Trump had been indicted 4x and impeached twice before this election in addition to the January 6. debacle. While it's true that Trump received a lot of attention, much of it was negative. The only advantage he held with the mainstream media is the constant barrage of criticism and sensationalism arguably played a role in galvanizing his base, portraying him as an outsider fighting against a biased establishment. That shyt from the Times is deplorable, but they did endorse her at the end of the day. You mean to tell me that CNN, NBC, ABC, PBS, CBS, Politico, Vox, NPR, etc. didn't support the dems? A lot of the criticism from left leaning platforms was literally coming from her own party! She was notoriously evasive when asked questions, even Van Jones spoke on it, His fellow CNN commentator, former Barack Obama White House adviser Van Jones, admitted that "the word salad stuff gets on my nerves. I think that some of [Harris'] evasions are not necessary." At what point is it no longer dikkriding Trump, but the honest admission that she was not a good candidate!

https://www.politico.com/news/2024/10/05/harris-30-days-00182592

Your assertion that characterizing Harris's campaign as solely "Orange Man Bad" is revisionist nonsense is not accurate imo. While the Harris campaign did emphasize themes of unity and protecting basic rights, it did so as an antithesis to the GOP's stoking of culture wars. This focus on identity politics was another crucial mistake, since the majority of Americans do not give a fukk about trans rights, shyt a lot of them dont even care about women's rights, another centerpoint of the campaign. And they undermined their own strategy by flip flopping on key issues like fracking, which Trump pointed out to his benefit! While Trump capitalized on the economic hardship that is visibly palpable in this country, Kamala was wasting precious airtime dedicating policy that effects less than 1% of the country. And to act like they did not dedicate at least half of their airtime to attacking Trump is straight up disingenous. Do you know how many times we heard Trump is a threat to democracy?! Far more than I heard talk of alleviating the economic hardship that is obviously plaguing this country.

Regarding your last point about Cheney, It's important to clarify that my critique isn't about pursuing Trump's base but rather addressing the significant number of previous Democratic voters who abstained in the recent election. The 2024 election saw a notable decline in dem voter turnout compared to 2020, which played a crucial role in the outcome. You allude to it in your post, "Propping up Bush-era war criminals like dikk Cheney and pretending Liz Cheney was some hero of democracy likely alienated some Dem voters while winning zero actual votes from those people, too"

 

[Drip Bayless]

@Pull Up the Roots pt 2 of my response:

And lastly, the most obvious point, they would've won easily if they stopped supporting genocide. I know Trump is worse on genocide, but politics rarely makes sense, like I keep explaining, it's about how people feel, and unfortunately the dems base hold them to a higher standard than the republicans who we all know are evil. "Nearly a third of US voters who cast their ballots for former President Joe Biden in 2020 decided against voting for Kamala Harris in the 2024 presidential elections because Biden supported Israel's war on Gaza, a new poll has shown."
"That reason surpassed the economy, immigration, healthcare, and abortion, all of which have historically been major voter issues in past presidential elections. Foreign policy is often a low factor in voter turnout."
""The Democratic Party needs to come to terms with the real reasons it lost the presidency in November, including that after over a year of unprecedented protests and calls for Biden to stop sending weapons to Israel, party leadership failed to listen to its own voters who overwhelmingly want their government to end its complicity in Israel’s genocide in Gaza," IMEU said."

So in summation, I will concede that my saying the dems had every institutional advantage was wrong, and that they are held to a much higher standard, but to portray the contrary as if they had no advantages, or even lacked the majority of the advantage, that I do not agree with.

 

[2 Up 2 Down]

This.

But a lot of these cats think that college campus politics can be applied to the entire country.

Put the hackeysack down and realize the progressives y'all champion are taking money from billionaires too.

I honestly don't understand why some of y'all like moderates so much. It reminds me of regular people voting for Republicans. Makes no sense whatsoever other than you are afraid of change.

 

[Geek Nasty]

It's because the democratic party has been running the Clintonista strategy since the 90s and don't ahve the connection with their base to know why it doesn't work any more. Shifting to the middle and expecting voters to fall in line like Republicans behind whoever you put up doesn't work for a party based on actual economic issues, not loyalty, racism, and sticking it to libs.

Even right now they're still going full blown corporate dems behind the scenes thinkin gthey'll just strategize their way out of any hole. I was listening to a corporate dem strategist this week recommending that the Democratic Party just needs a non-commital way to say they believe in the same issues their base and moderates do. Literally implied that the solution was just misleading the base better.

 

[Drip Bayless]

I honestly don't understand why some of y'all like moderates so much. It reminds me of regular people voting for Republicans. Makes no sense whatsoever other than you are afraid of change.

Bingo. That's a human thing though to be afraid of change to an extent. There were plenty of people who wanted to stay slaves or second class citizens in the last two centuries, because they didnt believe we would ever win and chose the comfort of subjugation to the discomfort of fighting for a better future. We just dont hear about them because they've been relegated to back annals of history. History is for the trailblazers

 

[2 Up 2 Down]

Leftists live in a false reality. This country largely does not want any sort of progressive policies as if they did, they would support the idea regardless of the party or individual that it’s aligned to and not have to be fed a bullshyt exit poll question to be tricked into objectivity.

That's a falsehood that is pushed by establishment Dems to make an excuse for the loss

Ballot measures deliver big wins for progressive policy priorities

From education to abortion rights, minimum wage to family leave, progressive policy measures fared quite well in 2024, even amid Republican victories.

www.msnbc.com

Tim Walz's progressive policies popular with Republicans in swing states

While the Trump campaign and GOP lawmakers attack the VP candidate's record, polling suggests his policies have significant support.

www.newsweek.com

Majority of Americans support progressive policies such as higher minimum wage, free college

From government-mandated paid maternity leave to tuition free college, the CNBC All-America Economic Survey reveals a surprising American appetite for some very progressive policies.

www.cnbc.com

https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-partisan/wp/2018/07/24/remember-democrats-progressive-policies-are-popular/

Progressive Ideas Remain Popular. Progressive Presidential Candidates Are Losing. Why? (Published 2020)

In state after state, voters say they support liberal policies like single-payer health care, canceling student debt and the Green New Deal. But many are voting for Joe Biden, who has proposed largely moderate ideas.

www.nytimes.com

 

[Formerly Black Trash]

It doesn't matter

I think it's already over

Midterms won't matter

Trump is not following the rule of law and is emboldened by the sc decision

It's up to the states and/or agencies going rogue to save us

 

[KamikazePilot]

This isn’t true. There is a difference between neoliberal Dems and MAGA. MAGA is conservative populism mixed with libertarianism. Neoliberals suck but we’re seeing the gutting of the middle class by MAGA. It’s funny cause MAGA supporters are so caught up in the populism that they are ignoring how Trump is fukking their lives up.

Neoliberal Dems and Repubs are the same and we could see that in how Kamala kept trying to get Republican votes.

While the platforms might be slightly different MAGA or should I say trump is much close to your typical neoliberal than he is a populist, the MAGA base populism is just using the American Racial Hierarchy to steal money and give it to billionaires and Israel, there’s a reason the democrats are not doing much to stop this, because they Both serve the same people. The middle class has been getting gutted and Biden led the most massive transfer of wealth to the billionaires ever.

 

[Marc Spector]

That's a falsehood that is pushed by establishment Dems to make an excuse for the loss

Ballot measures deliver big wins for progressive policy priorities

From education to abortion rights, minimum wage to family leave, progressive policy measures fared quite well in 2024, even amid Republican victories.

www.msnbc.com

Tim Walz's progressive policies popular with Republicans in swing states

While the Trump campaign and GOP lawmakers attack the VP candidate's record, polling suggests his policies have significant support.

www.newsweek.com

Majority of Americans support progressive policies such as higher minimum wage, free college

From government-mandated paid maternity leave to tuition free college, the CNBC All-America Economic Survey reveals a surprising American appetite for some very progressive policies.

www.cnbc.com

https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-partisan/wp/2018/07/24/remember-democrats-progressive-policies-are-popular/

Progressive Ideas Remain Popular. Progressive Presidential Candidates Are Losing. Why? (Published 2020)

In state after state, voters say they support liberal policies like single-payer health care, canceling student debt and the Green New Deal. But many are voting for Joe Biden, who has proposed largely moderate ideas.

www.nytimes.com

The key indicator in all of this data is these are likely voters who were polled i.e people who are already invested in the political machine. The vast majority of Americans do not vote and the vast majority of non voting Americans are a combination of ignorant, selfish, underserved, under represented and conditioned to buy into the Puritanical, conservative, meritocratic view on labor and education, no matter how inefficient and false that view is. you might could convince me that the majority of Americans aren’t explicitly against progressive policies, but they are certainly not for them in any way where these opinions form the basis of a voting bloc, either.

 

[Pull Up the Roots]

too many words breaks the post

You're conceding the core of my argument but still trying to frame the Democrats as having most of the advantages, which isn't true for the reasons I laid out.

Big Tech wasn't neutral. Facebook and YouTube prioritized right-wing content because it drove engagement and profit. Far-right influencers dominated the algorithm the entire election cycle. That's why people like Ben Shapiro consistently dominated Facebook's most-viewed posts during the cycle. The claim that tech only shifted to Trump *after* the election is false.

As far as Amazon, they're not just an online retailer, it's a tech giant with massive influence over the digital advertising ecosystem. A ton of sites and ad servers run on AWS, which means Amazon controls a huge chunk of the infrastructure that powers online ads. Bezos also owns the Washington Post. You can't have a conversation about Big Tech and advertising w/o mentioning them. Same with Patrick Soon-Shiong and the LA Times.

And calling Trump's mainstream media coverage "negative" ignores the actual framing. Sure, there were criticisms, but they constantly normalized him and legitimized his candidacy. The media loved amplifying right-wing attacks and repeating GOP narratives about her competence. Even after four years in office, and an insurrection, Trump still got the full benefit of being framed as the outsider under attack, which only helped to energize his base.

The bar was so low for Trump that all it took for him to be labeled as "disciplined" was to limit his hateful rhetoric to two unhinged rants a day instead of five.

As far as the identity politics claim, she deliberately avoided centering her campaign on her race and gender. It was her opposition that weaponized identity, questioning her Blackness and claiming she was "pretending" to be Black for political gain. If anyone leaned into identity politics, it was her critics, not her. And framing her campaign messaging as purely reactionary ignores the real policies she ran on. She didn't run explicitly on trans rights either, and the women's issues she emphasized were directly tied to the very real threats to reproductive freedom, not niche culture war battles. Like, you are being incredibly uncharitable here. And like every other critic on here using misleading right-wing framing as the base of your criticism.

Why has Kamala Harris downplayed her gender and race on US campaign trail?

Experts say that Harris has avoided highlighting ‘identity politics’, as election rivals paint her as a ‘DEI hire’.

www.aljazeera.com

Opinion: Kamala Harris is ignoring identity politics

If elected in November, Vice President Kamala Harris would make history in several ways as the 47th President of the United States — most notably as the first woman president,...

mndaily.com

https://www.politico.com/news/2024/08/30/harris-cnn-interview-race-gender-00176929

And on Gaza, we agree, Democratic leadership alienated key parts of their base by ignoring calls to stop funding genocide.