"What's the 'most work' Black Americans put in towards the Pan African movement?" -generic-username

[get these nets]

Im just stating facts because lies/opinions like the ones I highlighted at the start of this thread have been going on too long without being seriously checked




It's a combo of both



true...and that's what this thread will do





I never said other groups didn't partake in forms of Pan-Africanism; Im just making it clear that Aframs are the founders of it's modern triangular form, where the entire african diaspora falls under ONE people (black) and that they have showed the most pan-africanist spirit; domestically and internationally






again, these ARE NOT involved with TRIANGULAR (modern pan-africanism) concerns of the afro-atlantic (USA mainland + rest of the Americas + Africa)

Thanks, but why would the USA be at the center of your definition of pan africanism?

This isn't a slight, but in current coli climate I have to preface the comment that way......the % of enslaved Africans sent to the modern day United States was 5% of the estimated total. On what basis would a person objectively list the USA mainland as it's own separate base of the Afro-Atlantic in a triangle?...and list the other 95% as a base?

If that's your definition, then it would ignore measures and actions taken across other colonies (former colonies) and Africa.
I thought you would include measures taken between people/organizations/govt.s of different countries or across different regions and Africa as Panafricanism.
I could see North America,Caribbean,Central America, + South America being seen as separate bases and cooperation between any of these regions AND African territory being in the definition.

Because of the ties that colonies had over the Euro flag that flew over them, there are probably examples of Africans in Cuba (Caribbean) linking up with Africans in Venuzuela(South America) about matters relating to West Africa.

You would not consider this an example of triangular Panafricanism?

 

[IllmaticDelta]

Thanks, but why would the USA be at the center of your definition of pan africanism?

it's not necessarily at the center; it's just that pan-africanism as an ideology is formulated to cover wherever "afros" exist

This isn't a slight, but in current coli climate I have to preface the comment that way......the % of enslaved Africans sent to the modern day United States was 5% of the estimated total.

mainland USA holds the largest "Black" ethnicity outside of continental africa

On what basis would a person objectively list the USA mainland as it's own separate base of the Afro-Atlantic in a triangle?...and list the other 95% as a base?

USA mainland has always been seen as it's own cluster. The "rest of the americas" is made up of the Caribbean, Central America and South America; where slavery birthed the ethnic groups in those areas. The majority of that you can break up into the West Indies and Latin America.

Pan-Africanism is a worldwide movement that aims to encourage and strengthen bonds of solidarity between all indigenous and diasporan ethnic groups of African descent. Based on a common goal going back to the Atlantic slave trade, the movement extends beyond continental Africans with a substantial support base among the African diaspora in the Caribbean, Latin America, the United States and Canada.[1][2] It is based on the belief that unity is vital to economic, social, and political progress and aims to "unify and uplift" people of African descent.[3] The ideology asserts that the fate of all African people and countries[clarification needed] are intertwined. At its core Pan-Africanism is a belief that “African people, both on the continent and in the diaspora, share not merely a common history, but a common destiny".[4] Pan-Africanist intellectual, cultural, and political movements tend to view all Africans and descendants of Africans as belonging to a single "race" and sharing cultural unity. Pan-Africanism posits a sense of a shared historical fate for Africans in the Americas, West Indies, and, on the continent itself, has centered on the Atlantic trade in slaves, African slavery, and European imperialism.[5]

If that's your definition, then it would ignore measures and actions taken across other colonies (former colonies) and Africa.
I thought you would include measures taken between people/organizations/govt.s of different countries or across different regions and Africa as Panafricanism.

that's a form of intra continental-pan africanism but it's not of the modern form

I could see North America,Caribbean,Central America, + South America being seen as separate bases and cooperation between any of these regions AND African territory being in the definition.

Because of the ties that colonies had over the Euro flag that flew over them, there are probably examples of Africans in Cuba (Caribbean) linking up with Africans in Venuzuela(South America) about matters relating to West Africa.

You would not consider this an example of triangular Panafricanism?

Not triangular. The african slaves in cuba were no longer continental africans but Afro-Cubans. Same for the ones in Venezuela. That would only be Pan-America(s) or Pan-Latin American if/since there were no post-slave trade, rooted; FREE continental Africans, involved.

 

[IllmaticDelta]

Andrew Jackson Foster (1925–1987)

was a missionary to the deaf in Ghana, Rwanda and other countries in Africa from 1956 until his death in 1987. In 1954, he became the first Deaf African American to earn a bachelor's degree from Gallaudet University and the first to earn a master's degree from Eastern Michigan University. He soon earned a second master's degree from Seattle Pacific Christian College (now called Seattle Pacific University) also in education. He founded Christian Mission for the Deaf African in 1956 and eventually set out for Accra, Ghana, where he established the first school for the deaf on the entire continent of Africa.

 

[Swahili P'Bitek]

You're right, that is a form of Pan-Continental Africanism but not of the Triangular type. Modern Pan-Africanism is based on the triangular relations/connections of the entire afro-diaspora.

The example I gave was just modernised but it can be still be taken back to the the formation of Sons of Africa in the 1700s.Some of the members, like Equianoh who knew he was an Igbo and Cuguanoh who knew he was a Fanti, and others like them who were enslaved in the West Indies advocated for the abolishment of African Chatell Slavery and the Slave trade worldwide. Their unique experiences made them say "Stop Enslaving Africans" Not " Stop Enslaving Igbo, Fanti people etc." And this message was passed across the Atlantic.

Now, did these men influence Delaney,Booker T & Du Bois? Of course not, their experiences in America did. Same goes for Blyden, Mzumbo Lazare,Stanley Williams,JJ Thomas(All Trinidad) and countless others who sought trans-atlantic connections between the Americas,Europe and Africa due to their unique experiences in the West Indies.All parties have had an interpretation and hand in Pan Africanism, some more than others, but the arguments quoted in the OP lack knowledge of it and want to pin point an origin of Pan African concept which is very difficult/nearly impossible considering the diversity of Africans in the continent and Americas.

 

[Supper]

The example I gave was just modernised but it can be still be taken back to the the formation of Sons of Africa in the 1700s.

Free African Union Society founded by a mixture of African born freed slaves and free black creoles(AAs) in Newport RI still predates the SOA by at least 6 years.
Free African Union Society - Wikipedia

 

[IllmaticDelta]

The example I gave was just modernised but it can be still be taken back to the the formation of Sons of Africa in the 1700s.Some of the members, like Equianoh who knew he was an Igbo and Cuguanoh who knew he was a Fanti, and others like them who were enslaved in the West Indies advocated for the abolishment of African Chatell Slavery and the Slave trade worldwide. Their unique experiences made them say "Stop Enslaving Africans" Not " Stop Enslaving Igbo, Fanti people etc." And this message was passed across the Atlantic.

Now, did these men influence Delaney,Booker T & Du Bois? Of course not, their experiences in America did. Same goes for Blyden, Mzumbo Lazare,Stanley Williams,JJ Thomas(All Trinidad) and countless others who sought trans-atlantic connections between the Americas,Europe and Africa due to their unique experiences in the West Indies.All parties have had an interpretation and hand in Pan Africanism, some more than others, but the arguments quoted in the OP lack knowledge of it and want to pin point an origin of Pan African concept which is very difficult/nearly impossible considering the diversity of Africans in the continent and Americas.

This is why I keep pointing out the concept/distinction of triangular pan-africanism. Sons Of Africa's agenda (mainly africans in british colonies), would not incorporate/cover let's say, slaves in latin america or "black" people in East/North East Africa. Modern, Pan-Afrincanism, incorporated the entire "afro" world.

An Ethiopian seeing themselves within the mix of people who descend from west and west-central africans in the atlantic slave trade; only happens, because of the modern triangular concept from Aframs.

 

[Swahili P'Bitek]

This is why I keep pointing out the concept/distinction of triangular pan-africanism. Sons Of Africa's agenda (mainly africans in british colonies), would not incorporate/cover let's say, slaves in latin america or "black" people in East/North East Africa. Modern, Pan-Afrincanism, incorporated the entire "afro" world.

An Ethiopian seeing themselves withing the mix of people who descend from west and west-central africans in the atlantic slave trade; only happens, because of the modern triangular concept from Aframs.

But benito sylvian and haiti had links with Ethiopia since the days of the battle of adowa (1897). And introduced Menelik to concepts of Negritude as well.

 

[Swahili P'Bitek]

Free African Union Society founded by a mixture of African born freed slaves and free black creoles(AAs) in Newport RI still predates the SOA by at least 6 years.
Free African Union Society - Wikipedia

And with the argument being laid out in this thread, it isn't supposedly pan African since it was solely made for Afro-Americans?

 

[IllmaticDelta]

But benito sylvian and haiti had links with Ethiopia since the days of the battle of adowa (1897). And introduced Menelik to concepts of Negritude as well.

Afram Ethiopianism was fully widespread and pan-african in the 1800s

Abyssinian Baptist church, currently located in Harlem, New York, was founded in 1808 when a group of black parishioners left First Baptist Church of New York due to the imposition of racially-segregated seating. Reverend Thomas Paul, an African American minister from Boston, Massachusetts, assisted the group consisting of African Americans and Ethiopian immigrants in establishing a church. The group named the new church Abyssinian after Abyssinia, the ancient name of Ethiopia.

but one thing you're leaving out: Menelik told the Haitians, unlike Bayen w/Aframs; he wasn't "black" but instead, caucasian.

Third, Jonas illustrates how Adwa became a symbol for African, and African-American, resistance despite Menelik himself. Menelik saw Adwa as a way to solidify his rule and preserve his independence. The desire to see Ethiopia as a symbol of resistance came from others. Benito Sylvain of Haiti, a pan-African visionary, traveled to Ethiopia in 1904 to help celebrate Haiti's hundredth anniversary of independence. As Haiti was home of the first successful slave revolt, Sylvain saw a kindred spirit in Menelik. Far from finding a receptive audience, Menelik agreed that the "the negro should be uplifted" but noted that he was of little value as he was Caucasian. For a leader who had secured his position with the Dervishes against Italy by appealing to common "blackness" this suggests a malleable definition of race which Menelik would adopt based on his political goals. Much of the symbolism surrounding Adwa came from others, such as W.E.B. DuBois and others in the global African diaspora, after the end of the First World War.

When Ethiopia Stunned the World | Origins: Current Events in Historical Perspective

Emperor Menelik II of Ethiopia did deny his being black. He is repeatedly reported to have said, “I am not a Negro at all; I am a Caucasian.” No historian has ever controverted that. Not even Harold Marcus, Menelik’s own biographer.[iii] Not even the more contemporary writers such as Raymond Jonas[iv] denied the fact that the emperor said it explicitly. All the existing historical evidence substantiates that he said it, and said it clearly and loudly.

Opinion: ‘Did Menelik II really say he is Caucasian?’ - Addis Standard


menelik was no pan-africanist with the haitians

 

[get these nets]

@IllmaticDelta ,
this page (7) has a post about a WELL accomplished African American traveling to West Africa as an educator. Andrew W. Foster. Thanks or the information about this brother.
Under your own definition, this would NOT be an example of Pan Africanism , yet you have his story in a thread about PanAfricanism. After you dismissed earlier hypotheticals about what is or isn't "triangular pan Africanism"
This thread, it's origin and some of your comments are confusing.

 

[IllmaticDelta]

@IllmaticDelta ,
this page (7) has a post about a WELL accomplished African American traveling to West Africa as an educator. Andrew W. Foster. Thanks or the information about this brother.
Under your own definition, this would NOT be an example of Pan Africanism , yet you have his story in a thread about PanAfricanism.

it's pan-africanism because he's helping a fellow "black" people that don't belong to his ethnic group

After you dismissed earlier hypotheticals about what is or isn't "triangular pan Africanism"
This thread, it's origin and some of your comments are confusing.

what I said was that the examples you posted were limited/non-triangular i.e.

africa + africa (no americas included)
latin america + latin america (no continental africa, west africa or mainland usa; included)

.....so for example; Somalis dealing with kenyans IN AFRICA is a form of Continental Pan-Africanism but it doesn't include other africans or the new world. When I speak of Triangular Pan-Africanism (modern); Im talking like what Booker T dealt with

 

[get these nets]

it's pan-africanism because he's helping a fellow "black" people that don't belong to his ethnic group






what I said was that the examples you posted were limited/non-triangular i.e.

africa + africa (no americas included)
latin america + latin america (no continental africa, west africa or mainland usa; included)

.....so for example; Somalis dealing with kenyans IN AFRICA is a form of Continental Pan-Africanism but it doesn't include other africans or the new world. When I speak of Triangular Pan-Africanism (modern); Im talking like what Booker T dealt with

I WROTE
If that's your definition, then it would ignore measures and actions taken across other colonies (former colonies) and Africa.
I thought you would include measures taken between people/organizations/govt.s of different countries or across different regions and Africa as Panafricanism.

YOU WROTE
"that's a form of intra continental-pan africanism but it's not of the modern form"

 

[IllmaticDelta]

I WROTE
If that's your definition, then it would ignore measures and actions taken across other colonies (former colonies) and Africa.
I thought you would include measures taken between people/organizations/govt.s of different countries or across different regions and Africa as Panafricanism.

YOU WROTE
"that's a form of intra continental-pan africanism but it's not of the modern form"

"I thought you would include measures taken between people/organizations/govt.s of different countries or across different regions and Africa as Panafricanism."

You know what; I skipped over than "and" part lol.

if it's all taking place ONLY within continental africa/african groups = intra african - pan africanism

it it's africa + nations outside of africa = closer to the modern form depending on how many of the macro regions are involved

back to the examples you gave:

Because of the ties that colonies had over the Euro flag that flew over them, there are probably examples of Africans in Cuba (Caribbean) linking up with Africans in Venuzuela(South America) about matters relating to West Africa.

Not triangular. The african slaves in cuba were no longer continental africans but Afro-Cubans. Same for the ones in Venezuela. That would only be Pan-Afro America(s) or Pan- Afro Latin American since there were no post-slave trade, rooted; FREE continental Africans, involved.

 

[get these nets]

"I thought you would include measures taken between people/organizations/govt.s of different countries or across different regions and Africa as Panafricanism."

You know what; I skipped over than "and" part lol.

if it's all taking place ONLY within continental africa/african groups = intra african - pan africanism

it it's africa + nations outside of africa = closer to the modern form depending on how many of the macro regions are involved

Yet, the example on this page of the well accomplished AA man becoming an educator in West Africa is posted by you as an (unrestricted,unlabeled) form of PanAfricanism. And when I asked you "how?" you said "because he's helping people from ethnic group he doesn't belong to. "

triangles, where?, other macro regions, where?

Can you see why I asked you what the true intention of this thread was?

If the intention of this thread is to trace all the antecedents of, and the roots of PanAfrican activity, let's get it. But like I've said before we have to be willing to go where the evidence takes us.

 

[IllmaticDelta]

Yet, the example on this page of the well accomplished AA man becoming an educator in West Africa is posted by you as an (unrestricted,unlabeled) form of PanAfricanism. And when I asked you "how?" you said "because he's helping people from ethnic group he doesn't belong to. "

because he (afram) is doing something for the well being of someone outside his ethnic group (africans). Triangular Pan-Africanism by definition covers the entire afrodiaspora. The afram doctor working in various countries in Africa is just one example of "work" being done. That's why I gave you examples of Aframs in America with Latinos/West Indians/Africans in Afram spaces along with the Afram "black" concept (needed for uniting the afro world at large) and the "work" being done/spreading, outside the USA. Your'e suppose to take all of this in totality. Not something singular (non-triangular) as a Nigerian working with a Beninese or a Puerto Rican working with a Dominican.

triangles, where?, other macro regions, where?

bolded big below

Pan-Africanism is a worldwide movement that aims to encourage and strengthen bonds of solidarity between all indigenous and diasporan ethnic groups of African descent. Based on a common goal going back to the Atlantic slave trade, the movement extends beyond continental Africans with a substantial support base among the African diaspora in the Caribbean, Latin America, the United States and Canada.[1][2] .

that's basically;

mainland USA + continental africa + the rest of the americas

Can you see why I asked you what the true intention of this thread was?

I already laid out the intentions:

1.who founded MODERN ( triangular based) pan-africanism
2. who put the most work in which would therefore show and prove who has been the most Pan-Africanist

If the intention of this thread is to trace all the antecedents of, and the roots of PanAfrican activity, let's get it. But like I've said before we have to be willing to go where the evidence takes us.

the intention is to show who founded MODERN (triangular based) Pan-Africanism
.

Basically who/what ethnic group in the diaspora laid this agenda down

The ideology asserts that the fate of all African people and countries[clarification needed] are intertwined. At its core Pan-Africanism is a belief that “African people, both on the continent and in the diaspora, share not merely a common history, but a common destiny".[4] Pan-Africanist intellectual, cultural, and political movements tend to view all Africans and descendants of Africans as belonging to a single "race" and sharing cultural unity. Pan-Africanism posits a sense of a shared historical fate for Africans in the Americas, West Indies, and, on the continent itself, has centered on the Atlantic trade in slaves, African slavery, and European imperialism