What was Africa like before colonialism? any documentaries or books you can recommend

[yates]

Do you know what an ibibio or an ijaw is? Not after googling,off the top of your head. What about the Annang?

There are thousands of groups scattered through west Africa that you guys don't even know exist til this day even with the advent of the internet.



Most of you guys knowledge of Africa comes from Europeans, that only peacefully interacted with the most developed societies in Africa.

Majority of indigenous west Africa people didn't have writing system to record the fact that the neighboring people were still hunter-gatherers, and I don't think they were as interested in that information as we currently are to even want to record it.

But we do have word of mouth knowledge and stories that were passed down from generation to generation that allowed us to know our history and the history of our area.

Farming was not the norm of the land in majority of those stories, it was seen as mythical... That's how novel it was, it was so rare people had to make up mythology on why we were able to do it. And we weren't a small group of people, we were one of the most populous groups in West Africa.

Breh in this thread you’ve already exposed the fact that u didn’t know the difference between a pastoralist and a hunter gatherer.

it seems like you conflate rural living with hunter gathering when the two are not the same. None of those groups you mentioned are hunter gatherers

Hunter gathers hunt wild animals for food. West Africa arguably has the scarcest wildlife in africa so what exactly would they have been hunting

Only hunter gathers in Africa are the san people in the south, the pygmies in central Africa and some nilotes in east Africa.

Go and educate yourself before talking shyt breh

 

[ignorethis]

But you said several times they had several forms of power...
So, by your own admission, they had religious, economic and military power... Now, you're saying they didn't have any.
You're contradicting yourself yet again.


Oh ok, now it's clearer. It's a number distinction.

Monaco - Wikipedia

Monaco is ~2 sq km (that's 0.780 sq mi) and has 38,682 inhabitants. Is Monaco not a principality? Is the Prince of Monaco not a prince?

Given the fact that a multitude of European kingdoms were smaller in size and in men than African kingdoms & empires, can you still justify that African rulers of these kingdoms were not kings?

In 1312, it is estimated that the Mali Empire was as large as 500,000 sq mi.
At approximately the same time, Mansa Abu Akari Keira II left the empire commanding some 2,000 ships equipped with both oars and sails.
Two centuries later, in 1500, the Songhai Empire: 540,000 sq mi.
France today (and no French king had the control of France as we know it) is 248,573 sq mi.
At the beginning of the 1500s, the King of Jolof had a company of 8 000 to 10 000 mounted men.

Don't these African rulers meet your criteria of "area one rules over"?



Do you realize that you're constantly moving the goalposts? First it's: their power being religiously rooted prevent them from being kings, then you say a king really is just the richest and most powerful politically, now it's about the area one rules over... And everytime, African Kings and Emperors meet the criterias you set and change to knock them down

Some had military power they were closer to warlords than "kings", some had religious power they were closer to Imams and popes than "kings", some had economic power they were closer to the modern day super elite/billionaires, than "kings".

The consolidation of those power structures into one major one like European royalty wasn't as common in Africa as it was in Europe. I'm not saying it never happened, but it didn't happen a lot compared to Europe.

You guys are caught up with the term "king" when anybody from West Africa with a little knowledge can tell you that kings were not really a thing in majority of West Africa.

Structured democratic governments were actually more common than "kingdoms", even the Europeans were surprised and took note of that when they arrived. Those democratic governments had small areas of influences, but there were hundreds of them if not thousands.

 

[ignorethis]

Breh in this thread you’ve already exposed the fact that u didn’t know the difference between a pastoralist and a hunter gatherer.

it seems like you conflate rural living with hunter gathering when the two are not the same. None of those groups you mentioned are hunter gatherers

Hunter gathers hunt wild animals for food. West Africa arguably has the scarcest wildlife in africa so what exactly would they have been hunting

Only hunter gathers in Africa are the san people in the south, the pygmies in central Africa and some nilotes in east Africa.

Go and educate yourself before talking shyt breh

People were still hunting wild animals before the Europeans arrived.

Hell people were still hunting wild animals 200 years after the Europeans arrived. Have you ever read "Things Fall Apart"? It basically considered the best recording of precolonial Africa ever written by an African who actually witnessed it.

In the book, hunting wild animals was a thing. Farming was also a thing. You hunted for meat and hides, and farmed crops. Some people had cattle but that wasn't the norm everywhere either.

There were groups that hunted but were unable to farm crops, those groups searched for wild growing food (this became less common as agriculture and trade spread).

 

[MischievousMonkey]

Some had military power they were closer to warlords than "kings", some had religious power they were closer to Imams and popes than "kings", some had economic power they were closer to the modern day super elite/billionaires, than "kings".

The consolidation of those power structures into one major one like European royalty wasn't as common in Africa as it was in Europe. I'm not saying it never happened, but it didn't happen a lot compared to Europe.

You guys are caught up with the term "king" when anybody from West Africa with a little knowledge can tell you that kings were not really a thing in majority of West Africa.

Alright. So we do agree that there were Kings and Emperors in Africa

By the way, I'm from West Africa too, albeit not the same region as you. And most of my knowledge I got from the oral traditions of my elders, that I cross-checked with what international observers of these times (most of them Arabs) noticed.

This dude

Spoiler

Yoro Dyao - Wikipedia

was an African who recorded by writing the oral history of my region, so no contamination by external sources.

So your ad verecundiam argument trying to paint us as non-Africans who don't know what the fukk they're talking about doesn't work. You're not better placed than us.

What you're doing is that you're inductively extending the fragmented knowledge of the history of your family and people over a whole continent, without realizing that Africa's history doesn't fit in what you know about it.

 

[ignorethis]

Alright. So we do agree that there were Kings and Emperors in Africa

By the way, I'm from West Africa too, albeit not the same region as you. And most of my knowledge I got from the oral traditions of my elders, that I cross-checked with what international observers of these times (most of them Arabs) noticed.

This dude

Spoiler

Yoro Dyao - Wikipedia

was an African who recorded by writing the oral history of my region, so no contamination by external sources.

So your ad verecundiam argument trying to paint us as non-Africans who don't know what the fukk they're talking about doesn't work. You're not better placed than us.

What you're doing is that you're inductively extending the fragmented knowledge of the history of your family and people over a whole continent, without realizing that Africa's history doesn't fit in what you know about it.

From my first post I stated that African societies varied, I stated 20 post ago some people had titles similar to "kings" but they were not the majority.

Your people might have had lineal royalty, but that was not the norm in majority of West Africa.

So it's weird when people try to apply those cultures to all of West Africa, when a lot us were proud of history even though it though it didn't result in major empires that could rival European and Asian ones.

 

[yates]

People were still hunting wild animals before the Europeans arrived.

Hell people were still hunting wild animals 200 years after the Europeans arrived. Have you ever read "Things Fall Apart"? It basically considered the best recording of precolonial Africa ever written by an African who actually witnessed it.

In the book, hunting wild animals was a thing. Farming was also a thing. You hunted for meat and hides, and farmed crops. Some people had cattle but that wasn't the norm everywhere either.

There were groups that hunted but were unable to farm crops, those groups searched for wild growing food (this became less common as agriculture and trade spread).

Just typing up a whole load of bullshyt not pertinent to this discussion.
We are talking about west africa.

post an excerpt of this book confirming hunter gathering societies in west Africa.

you won’t tho because u can’t

 

[tuckgod]

Pre Colonial Africa by Cheik Ante Diop

 

[Self_Born7]

Africa was and still is the richest continent... along with the most beautiful people since creation. Our media and government will tell you otherwise... thats its a shyt hole poor country,

A lot of these countries in the West would be third world countries, if they didn't robbed Africa blind. Look at France for example, they still collecting colonial taxes from several african nations till this day.

 

[Samori Toure]

Alright. So we do agree that there were Kings and Emperors in Africa

By the way, I'm from West Africa too, albeit not the same region as you. And most of my knowledge I got from the oral traditions of my elders, that I cross-checked with what international observers of these times (most of them Arabs) noticed.

This dude

Spoiler

Yoro Dyao - Wikipedia

was an African who recorded by writing the oral history of my region, so no contamination by external sources.

So your ad verecundiam argument trying to paint us as non-Africans who don't know what the fukk they're talking about doesn't work. You're not better placed than us.

What you're doing is that you're inductively extending the fragmented knowledge of the history of your family and people over a whole continent, without realizing that Africa's history doesn't fit in what you know about it.

That is excellent analysis and that is exactly what he has done. He has taken his limited knowledge about his own people and their history and tried to extend it over all the ethnic groups in West Africa. The wackiest part is that he actually thinks that since his Igbo family, ancestors and societies lived in an insulated small villages controlled by chiefs and without kings; then all the other West African societies must have been structured the same way.

He has still not figured out that the Igbos were an exception to how other West African ethnic groups lived. The Igbos were actually even an exception to how other West African forest belt societies like the Ubini (Benin), Akan and Yoruba lived; because those groups lived in structured societies of Kings, trade, diplomats, standing armies, etc.

 

[Samori Toure]

So you're cosign the lie that colonizing improved the life of Africa. Like I said I can't cosign this?

He does not know what the Hell he is writing about in regards to the West Africa. He didn't even know that almost the entirety of West Africa were covered by massive Empires and Kingdoms.


The surprising part to me is that he actually saying that life is better for Igbos since colonialism. Apparently he thinks that the White man brought them civilization.

 

[ignorethis]

He does not know what the Hell he is writing about in regards to the West Africa. He didn't even know that almost the entirety of West Africa were covered by massive Empires and Kingdoms.


The surprising part to me is that he actually saying that life is better for Igbos since colonialism. Apparently he thinks that the White man brought them civilization.

Igbos had civilization before the Europeans, it involved human sacrifice and slavery but it was a civilization.

Am I glad that we left that form of civilization? Yes, most Igbos are. It's what allowed us to advance and compete in modern day Africa, other group didn't advance and because of that they have no power in modern Africa.

You have to understand the reality of African history and development, Africans didn't end the slave trade in Africa, Europeans empires did because it interfered with imperialism. That's a good thing isn't it? Good and bad things came with imperialism.

Lol you guys are hilarious, people actually in Africa directly descended from these people aren't ashamed of the history.

Y'all are so ashamed of your ancestors not being Europeans, you guys deny and revise things that real Africans can tell you is the truth.

I was the same way when I was younger, "we weren't really engaging in human sacrifice and cannibalism, the white people made that up!" Then my parents had to tell me, "Are you stupid? that's how actually was, we lived in the bush, we did a lot of backwards shyt"

 

[ignorethis]

That is excellent analysis and that is exactly what he has done. He has taken his limited knowledge about his own people and their history and tried to extend it over all the ethnic groups in West Africa. The wackiest part is that he actually thinks that since his Igbo family, ancestors and societies lived in an insulated small villages controlled by chiefs and without kings; then all the other West African societies must have been structured the same way.

He has still not figured out that the Igbos were an exception to how other West African ethnic groups lived. The Igbos were actually even an exception to how other West African forest belt societies like the Ubini (Benin), Akan and Yoruba lived; because those groups lived in structured societies of Kings, trade, diplomats, standing armies, etc.

That's the thing, Yoruba societal structure you're referring to was a remnant of middle eastern/Islamic influence, same thing with Benin.

And the people that followed that structure didn't even control all of Yorubaland. Yorubas had bush men too, bush men weren't recognizing kings.

Even their "kings" had the same level of power as a "chief" which is why even modern day Yorubas have mostly abandoned the phrase "king" and transitioned to chieftaincy culture because it's consider more "African".

Chieftaincy culture was widespread and indigenous to West and Central Africa, royal culture was not.

 

[Samori Toure]

Igbos had civilization before the Europeans, it involved human sacrifice and slavery but it was a civilization.

Am I glad that we left that form of civilization? Yes, most Igbos are. It's what allowed us to advance and compete in modern day Africa, other group didn't advance and because of that they have no power in modern Africa.

You have to understand the reality of African history and development, Africans didn't end the slave trade in Africa, Europeans empires did because it interfered with imperialism. That's a good thing isn't it? Good and bad things came with imperialism.

Lol you guys are hilarious, people actually in Africa directly descended from these people aren't ashamed of the history.

Y'all are so ashamed of your ancestors not being Europeans, you guys deny and revise things that real Africans can tell you is the truth.

I was the same way when I was younger, "we weren't really engaging in human sacrifice and cannibalism, the white people made that up!" Then my parent had to tell me, "Are you stupid? that's how actually was, we lived in the bush, we did a lot of backwards shyt"

Yeah you have to be trolling Igbos, because civilization means civilized. Civilization is characterized by a complex societal structure featuring urban development, trade taxes, architecture, etc., etc., etc.

You just wrote that Igbos were doing human sacrifices and engaging in cannibalism, which is opposite of being civilized. That is actually uncivilized behavior. That is barbarism.


Naw. Other West African societies were not doing that crap. If what you wrote is true then I am happy that the White man brought you Igbos civilization.

 

[Samori Toure]

That's the thing, Yoruba societal structure you're referring to was a remnant of middle eastern/Islamic influence, same thing with Benin.

And the people that followed that structure didn't even control all of Yorubaland. Yorubas had bush men too, bush men weren't recognizing kings.

Even their "kings" had the same level of power as a "chief" which is why even modern day Yorubas have mostly abandoned the phrase "king" and transitioned to chieftaincy culture because it's consider more "African".

Chieftaincy culture was widespread and indigenous to West and Central Africa, royal culture was not.

I am busting up laughing that you are stating that Igbos were a backwards people before the arrival of White men. But there is a lot of proof to show that the other Africans were very advanced at the time the Europeans arrived. Check out Kongo and Angola at the arrival of the Europeans.

Central African Kingdom of Kongo and Angola

M'Banza Kongo is the ruins of the palace of the ManiKongo (King of Kongo). It is a World Heritage site with Unesco.

Mbanza Kongo, Vestiges of the Capital of the former Kingdom of Kongo

 

[ignorethis]

Yeah you have to be trolling Igbos, because civilization means civilized. Civilization is characterized by a complex societal structure featuring urban development, trade taxes, architecture, etc., etc., etc.

You just wrote that Igbos were doing human sacrifices and engaging in cannibalism, which is opposite of being civilized. That is actually uncivilized behavior. That is barbarism.


Naw. Other West African societies were not doing that crap. If what you wrote is true then I am happy that the White man brought you Igbos civilization.

You have a very eurocentric view of "civilization" like I already said.

The Incas and the Mayans weren't civilizations then...

The Egyptians weren't a civilization then...

Stop trying to make Africa into Europe.

Banking, taxes, and even democracy could coexist with human sacrifice and cannibalism (even though it seems cannibalism was mostly taboo).