What ruined Marvel comics?

[Supa]

The bolded would be true if Manga wasn't taking over the culture and dominating the charts.

I'm surprised how many young black men are into manga and anime. And it's not just nerds.

RDCWorld are like the most popular black content creators and heavy into that shyt and they an bytchless incels.

Marvel got to get back on their shyt. People buying Manga in America.

I was waiting for this point. Manga is what made me quit American superhero comics.

I kinda lost interest when Jim Lee and Chris Claremont left X-Men. I was reading X-Men again during the Joe Madureira run and I left when he did. I was also getting a bit over things when the Onslaught story was running across all of Marvel

I used to have manga from way back like Appleseed or whatever they had in the comic shops. They were still in Japanese so it was for the art. Around the late 90's you started having regular people doing "scanlations" of manga and posting them online. Naruto came out in 1999 and it really got the ball rolling in making manga popular stateside.

Manga just felt superior to comics in every way. You got 18-20 page chapters weekly with no ads. You got a linear story which would eventually end. There's no retcons and no changing writers/artists so there's a consistent vision. They're more diverse in regards to storytelling. The stories are self contained within their own universe so there's no convoluted cross overs. The biggest thing is there a clear distinction between the art and the business. You never feel like you're reading a manga that has the publishers hands on it. You never feel like the writer is focused on the real world and letting it seep into the story so there's no pandering. It's truly an escapist medium.

I don't ever see a time where Marvel or DC can beat out manga. You can't keep recycling the same characters for decades.

 

[Easy-E]

I was waiting for this point. Manga is what made me quit American superhero comics.

I kinda lost interest when Jim Lee and Chris Claremont left X-Men. I was reading X-Men again during the Joe Madureira run and I left when he did. I was also getting a bit over things when the Onslaught story was running across all of Marvel

I used to have manga from way back like Appleseed or whatever they had in the comic shops. They were still in Japanese so it was for the art. Around the late 90's you started having regular people doing "scanlations" of manga and posting them online. Naruto came out in 1999 and it really got the ball rolling in making manga popular stateside.

Manga just felt superior to comics in every way. You got 18-20 page chapters weekly with no ads. You got a linear story which would eventually end. There's no retcons and no changing writers/artists so there's a consistent vision. They're more diverse in regards to storytelling. The stories are self contained within their own universe so there's no convoluted cross overs. The biggest thing is there a clear distinction between the art and the business. You never feel like you're reading a manga that has the publishers hands on it. You never feel like the writer is focused on the real world and letting it seep into the story so there's no pandering. It's truly an escapist medium.

I don't ever see a time where Marvel or DC can beat out manga. You can't keep recycling the same characters for decades.

Yea, I'm holding on, but, I'm gonna start looking for atleast one to read

 

[Mr. Negative]

was what one of the last overt "tumblr" comics marvel had planned.


safespace and snowflake if I remember correctly

and then they were black and doing that "they/them" shyt

I wanna add that outside of some creator induced fukkery (aaron on Avengers for example) Marvel has been MUCH better the last few years.

 

[hex]

Long story short, execs.

The writers/artists were allowed to basically do whatever they wanted until around the early/mid-90's. Then it seems like the corporate types realized how much money could be milked from comics so they OD'ed with cross overs, a million spin-offs, "collector's" issues, etc.

Fred.

 

[Mowgli]

• Too many confusing alternate timelines and convoluted stories
• Too many characters constantly dying/coming back to life
• Too many reboots and #1's, so regular people don't know where to start
• Too many villains becoming good guys, so the heroes have no one left to fight but each other
• Comics and general are trying too hard to be Watchmen. Edgelords messed the game up
• The suits forcing writers to push/sabotage certain characters b/c of the movie rights

These ^^^

Even though I can only pick 3, I'll sum up my answers.

All the "events" since the last Secret Wars was the fight off bad sales--along with the constant reboots (even Captain Marvel was getting rebooted a handful of times)--so, the comics cannot retain talent and the hacks take over.

The movies fukked up canon/continuity because they don't understand the comic and film audience isn't the same, so, they will try to make any change the movies have. Example, T. Coates changed the Black Panther comics to fit with the movie.

They fukked up X-Men and flopped HARD with Inhumans because of the movie rights. We haven't had any great F4 runs for he same reason.

Because ppl all want to "speak on the moment," they miss the part of comics being about comic book. Yes, talk about the times. But, they had Sam Wilson fighting Border Patrol and going on Twitter dealing with #NotMyCaptainAmerica every issue, not, actually being a super hero. Which is the biggest problem with black superheroes--we always being tortured by white people.

She-Hulk had perfect art, but, they always threw in some men hating shyt. I love female superheroes, but, I cannot read a book without some white women or black feminist putting that in there.

Cool with a book or two, but, damn near every female comic character is a version of 3 women.

"Wokeness" isn't a problem, it's a symptom of the problem.

This dude;

is writting Blade, but, he also wrote this horseshyt;

Bonus: Stop switching out characters with their friends (Electra was Daredevil) or their kids (Miles--I could never get into his books because they all were rehashes of old Spiderman stories) or mentees (Ironheart).

Marvel must pay shyt and their audience must be considered retarded because the same writers make a name with marvel then use their bankability to write their own independent books which show alot more imagination.

 

[PoorAndDangerous]

I was never able to get into the standard marvel comics. There were too many issues and intertwining stories you had to know, I'd go buy a comic at the book store and just be lost, and the writing wasn't great. But I love graphic novels like the Watchmen, Batman The Long Halloween, From Hell, etc. Wonder if they'd be more successful just focusing on one-off stories like that.

 

[AquaCityBoy]

Manga weirdos got in this thread.

 

[calh45]

Long story short, execs.

The writers/artists were allowed to basically do whatever they wanted until around the early/mid-90's. Then it seems like the corporate types realized how much money could be milked from comics so they OD'ed with cross overs, a million spin-offs, "collector's" issues, etc.

Fred.

This.

It was over the moment they stepped on their most popular brand by letting Wanda say no more mutants and then a few years later the execs stepped on the X-Men ever more because Disney wanted them back from Fox. The Avengers were in the backseat of comic fandom until those two things happened.......and to go a step further they're going to water everything down to PG-13 stories because they want everything to have a broad appeal. I'm willing to bet the next Deadpool movie is gonna be HORRIBLE because of it. I don't care what guarantee they gave Ryan Reynolds.

 

[nightwing2016]

Man, I clicked like six options and they said you could only chose three. One of the issues is that the editors have been a sleep at the wheel for at least three decades otherwise trash like the Draco would have never ever been published in an x-men book. The constant major events that have no lasting impact on the universe or the characters. I remember the first secret wars the events in that event echoed in the books for years like spidey’s black suit leading to venom or colossus breaking up with kitty pryde and it impacting the team stuff mattered.

I don’t mind politics but many of the writers seem I’ll equipped to really discuss race in any manner besides the police beat black people. Like miles morales who isn’t anywhere near a hood of a character as Peter goes to a charter school. With Bendis and other writers attempts to talk about race why isn’t that address? Why not discuss how race impacts opportunities such as a quality education in an insightful and intelligent way that breaks the monotony of always talking about the police?

All the writers aren’t comic book fans and seem to know little about the characters or their history. In 2015 the replacing of many of the classic characters with new ones lead to many of the replacements talking bad about their predecessors. I’m a wolverine fan so I picked up x-23’s book and they regularly trashed wolverine in that book and then proceed to rehash many of his stories to build up X-23 as a superior version of what Wolverine was supposed to be while downplaying what he went through with the weapon x program.

Don’t kill characters if you are going to bring them back next month. Because of the long continuity associated with many of these characters you have to treat writing them like writing a history paper you can’t just make stuff up and say well I like this story when it flies directly into the face of known continuity. Like when Bendis had kitty trashing Jean for being mean to her when she first joined the team even though she joins the team after she dies in the dark Phoenix saga and doesn’t really engage with Jean at all during the issues she was in the dark Phoenix saga.

 

[nightwing2016]

Yeah.. but manga/anime always has an ending planned. So you get a beginning, middle, ending.

Comics with big characters like Spidey, Wolve, Batman, Supes.. characters that their endings will only ever be alternate universe/elseworlds shyt


There are upsides and downsides to that I guess

It is also overwhelmingly one author. Which has it own pluses and negatives

 

[Doctor Doom]

Cause manga snatched it's chain.

 

[Mowgli]

This goes to the point earlier. Manga actually has narrative consistency. Also, characters age, die and have kids. They actually live lives and don’t stay stuck in the same regurgitated stories and problems.

I teach English in Japan and I asked a kid what their favorite anime was and they said Boruto. I was watching Naruto almost 20 years ago and that nicca had kids and a family just like me. Now his jit is front and center.

Meanwhile, Frankin Richards was a toddler for gotdamn 50 years lmao.

You get these one off stories of old superhero’s, Old Man Logan, Kingdom Come, Dark Knight Returns etc that are incredibly popular and legendary, why not run with it?

Marvel is scared to get off Jack Kirby and Stan Lee's dikk.

 

[nightwing2016]

Avatar is Korean, anime to me is purely a Japanese phenomenon like how jazz is African-American, other people can emulate the style but the true essence is with the people of origin. It's culturally engrained and readily understood on an unspoken level. I wanted to be an animator/painter growing up so I pay attention to these little things and realized early I can't do what the Japanese do in terms of animation.

Influence:

Original:

It's got a lot to do with genuine expression within the medium, the 80s with its clean approach is what I gravitated toward but building on generations of technology, technical ability and a genuine love for the craft solidified in the 90s as far as cel animation goes:

You can't tell me Japan wasn't hardbody when it came to putting their culture on the map when the 90s came around. When I see anime or any form of Japanese media from that era it tells me Japan came as a unified front utilizing damn near everything they did and taking it to another level. I don't ever remember seeing blows so fast afterimages were created used in any other format outside of Japanese animation and video games.

Italians did it with photography during futurism, but they didn't apply that concept to animation. That's what made anime what it is, the next step.

FLCL took it a step further and adapted manga to an anime format:

American animation ain't touching that kind of originality and innovation when it's all about revenue, not to mention the story telling. The cultural differences alone will make sure of that. A densely packed coming-of-age six episode series that still looks fresh compared to current Marvel animation.

Marvel been washed. And no, they ain't catching up.

I don’t think it is the animation part of it because the fight scenes in castelvania which was done by power house animation which is an American studio or the fight scenes spectacular Spider-Man like the fight at the opera house. the fight scenes in early comic books like all the fights between wolverine and sabertooth in the eighties and nineties is on par with the fight scenes you were getting in manga around the same time. Art has taking a drop in American comics because of the influx of tumblr style artist in the genre.

I mean you look at the popularity of my hero academia which is heavily influenced by American comicbooks and has an eighties new mutant feel to it there is something more there and I think it has more to do with storytelling than anything else.

 

[Amo Husserl]

I don’t think it is the animation part of it because the fight scenes in castelvania which was done by power house animation which is an American studio or the fight scenes spectacular Spider-Man like the fight at the opera house. the fight scenes in early comic books like all the fights between wolverine and sabertooth in the eighties and nineties is on par with the fight scenes you were getting in manga around the same time. Art has taking a drop in American comics because of the influx of tumblr style artist in the genre.

I mean you look at the popularity of my hero academia which is heavily influenced by American comicbooks and has an eighties new mutant feel to it there is something more there and I think it has more to do with storytelling than anything else.

The way I see it it's never just one thing, we try to make it so to get our points across without being long-winded sacrificing a lot of context.

Disney animation was top tier once upon a time, that time has passed, someone else soaked up the game, applied it to their way of doing things and have found success. Treasure Planet could have set a new standard, but from how I understand it CGI was more cost effective and had a shorter time to produce. Cool, at the end of the day it's business. American priorities regarding animation are different when it comes to pushing a product, take a look at those Hanna-Barbera cartoons.

Sticking purely to animation and quality of animation for a moment, Japan takes the cake. Power House Animation has a number of Koreans in the animation department:

Castlevania (TV Series 2017–2021) - IMDb

Castlevania (TV Series 2017–2021) cast and crew credits, including actors, actresses, directors, writers and more.

www.imdb.com

This goes back to my points about Avatar. The Japanese have a certain feel to their animation style that crystalized in the nineties was what I was getting at, it's distinctive and specific to how well they expressed their culture within the medium of animation at the time and that time came from years of technological and technical development from one generation to another, dedication to the essence of what anime is and what it means to them as a cultural expression was my point. When you can recognize that, you can separate the imitation from the genuine article. Korean animation is not Japanese animation.

Animation department of Spectacular Spider-Man:

The Spectacular Spider-Man (TV Series 2008–2009) - IMDb

The Spectacular Spider-Man (TV Series 2008–2009) cast and crew credits, including actors, actresses, directors, writers and more.

www.imdb.com

Not sure if this is what you mean:






My Hero clearly has better animation, check the credits.

Manga has come a long way, and the US had most everybody beat during the 80s on print. The culture of art in the US has been on a steady decline and the Tumblr artists haven't helped.

The post you quoted was a different way of pointing out the 10,000hr rule.

To make this animation look so real and lifelike in the 80s was game changing:

The manga was just as good from a technical aspect:

Mastery of technical ability complemented by technology backed by cultural values is what made anime so great in the nineties. The decline of technical ability complemented by technology backed by cultural values is what's making Marvel lose today. Dedication to the craft, not profits.

Storytelling, you have a culture that allows greater space for more diverse storytelling when it comes to Japan. Never mind the influence of that story telling, the fact that Spider-Man has yet to end is a problem. Marvel is warmed over, manga is damn near fresh out the oven every three to five years or so barring certain exceptions and even then the storytelling is compelling enough... another poster mentioned escapism.

I could go on, but I think you get my point: different cultural values lead to different outcomes, some better than others. What does Korean animation have to do with this? Korean animation doesn't come from the same culture as Japanese animation and can't be used as a substitute. Korean animation/art has similar qualities but there are nuances that make remove it from the Japanese tradition.

 

[nightwing2016]

The way I see it it's never just one thing, we try to make it so to get our points across without being long-winded sacrificing a lot of context.

Disney animation was top tier once upon a time, that time has passed, someone else soaked up the game, applied it to their way of doing things and have found success. Treasure Planet could have set a new standard, but from how I understand it CGI was more cost effective and had a shorter time to produce. Cool, at the end of the day it's business. American priorities regarding animation are different when it comes to pushing a product, take a look at those Hanna-Barbera cartoons.

Sticking purely to animation and quality of animation for a moment, Japan takes the cake. Power House Animation has a number of Koreans in the animation department:

Castlevania (TV Series 2017–2021) - IMDb

Castlevania (TV Series 2017–2021) cast and crew credits, including actors, actresses, directors, writers and more.

www.imdb.com

This goes back to my points about Avatar. The Japanese have a certain feel to their animation style that crystalized in the nineties was what I was getting at, it's distinctive and specific to how well they expressed their culture within the medium of animation at the time and that time came from years of technological and technical development from one generation to another, dedication to the essence of what anime is and what it means to them as a cultural expression was my point. When you can recognize that, you can separate the imitation from the genuine article. Korean animation is not Japanese animation.

Animation department of Spectacular Spider-Man:

The Spectacular Spider-Man (TV Series 2008–2009) - IMDb

The Spectacular Spider-Man (TV Series 2008–2009) cast and crew credits, including actors, actresses, directors, writers and more.

www.imdb.com

Not sure if this is what you mean:






My Hero clearly has better animation, check the credits.

Manga has come a long way, and the US had most everybody beat during the 80s on print. The culture of art in the US has been on a steady decline and the Tumblr artists haven't helped.

The post you quoted was a different way of pointing out the 10,000hr rule.

To make this animation look so real and lifelike in the 80s was game changing:

The manga was just as good from a technical aspect:

Mastery of technical ability complemented by technology backed by cultural values is what made anime so great in the nineties. The decline of technical ability complemented by technology backed by cultural values is what's making Marvel lose today. Dedication to the craft, not profits.

Storytelling, you have a culture that allows greater space for more diverse storytelling when it comes to Japan. Never mind the influence of that story telling, the fact that Spider-Man has yet to end is a problem. Marvel is warmed over, manga is damn near fresh out the oven every three to five years or so barring certain exceptions and even then the storytelling is compelling enough... another poster mentioned escapism.

I could go on, but I think you get my point: different cultural values lead to different outcomes, some better than others. What does Korean animation have to do with this? Korean animation doesn't come from the same culture as Japanese animation and can't be used as a substitute. Korean animation/art has similar qualities but there are nuances that make remove it from the Japanese tradition.

I understand your point but I think the difference of the style of animation from something like castelvania compared to my hero academia would not influence the large disparities we are seeing between comic books and manga. The animation of the most iconic manga may have helped them spread past Japanese borders but it was only after they became popular in black and white in Japan first and even then due to translation houses most people get scans of manga long before they are animated and show their friends which was my case with my hero academia.

I mean look at one punch man and mob psycho both excellent stories that started as a webcomic by One and he can’t draw. What set it apart was the messaging of those stories, of the development of those characters. The popularity of those webcomics got the manga industry to give him an artist to draw his works for him so he could publish them in their books which lead to their animation once they maintained their popularity in the manga format.

In the nineties X-men and Spider-Man where selling damn near a million comics. I think spawn 300 hit a million comics. Spider-man doesn’t need to end they just need to stop trying to act like it is the 1980s and that he is a single broke college student. Him settling down and having kids works because of the huge fanbase Mayday Parker has.

You look at the art in something like immortal hulk and the story in it was A plus the explanation of why it wasn’t doing manga numbers can’t be the art. Or when house of x and power of x had a good story and good art was when they were released they were doing big numbers but nothing like manga. We like to say manga but if we are being real we are talking about Shonen which are really just battle comics and they focus on the same demographics as American comic books.

I think animation isn’t really the issue, young justice is also popular and features dc super heroes. Disney’s Pixar format is still really popular even in Tokyo where disneysea is argued as one of the best disney parks in the world. I think direct market issues, the varying writers and artist that make the quality of a book vary widely and the cost of the books impact them more than the quality of the books being animated even though I agree that japans animation is better.