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[PortCityProphet]

Orioles got tomato plants growing behind the bullpen

 

[Remote]

Terrible logic. He's been a top five pitcher AND hitter in the American League. Nobody can be more valuable than that.

Judge is going to win the award but by definition, Ohtani should win it every year he performs even close to this level. Nobody can be more valuable than him because he's literally the only one capable of doing what he's doing.

I have no problem is Ohtani's value if you're looking at it in terms of roster construction or even evaluating contracts.

But for awards, I feel he has an unfair advantage.

The Cy Young Award was created in 1956 specifically for this reason, even if it isn't explicitly stated. Because people recognized that pitching and hitting are different. And it's why prior to its creation, pitchers rarely were in consideration for MVP (the WW2 years being outliers)

 

[PortCityProphet]

Jays manager got his ass tossed

 

[Regular_P]

I have no problem is Ohtani's value if you're looking at it in terms of roster construction or even evaluating contracts.

But for awards, I feel he has an unfair advantage.

The Cy Young Award was created in 1956 specifically for this reason, even if it isn't explicitly stated. Because people recognized that pitching and hitting are different. And it's why prior to its creation, pitchers rarely were in consideration for MVP (the WW2 years being outliers)

This guy is his own category, which is why he's the most valuable. Nobody else can do what he does. Nobody can have more value than him.

 

[Remote]

This guy is his own category, which is why he's the most valuable. Nobody else can do what he does. Nobody can have more value than him.

If you took Ohtani's pitching WAR and hitting WAR to date this season it adds up to 7.9. (I'm using Fangraphs' WAR calculation)

Now that 7.9 combined WAR is still...STILL less than Aaron Judge's 8.9 as a hitter only.
But it would be higher than every other American League hitter. In fact, it's higher than every Major League hitter.

Now you're effectively saying that Shohei Ohtani can have (this year and in the future) merely average seasons as a pitcher and hitter...and combine those values to overshadow even the most elite seasons from single-position players.

Let me give you a real world example here.
Ohtani, in your mind and the minds of others here....could hit like Daulton Varsho, pitch like Merrill Kelly....and win the MVP every year.

That's just fukking preposterous.

 

[Regular_P]

If you took Ohtani's pitching WAR and hitting WAR to date this season it adds up to 7.9. (I'm using Fangraphs' WAR calculation)

Now that 7.9 combined WAR is still...STILL less than Aaron Judge's 8.9 as a hitter only.
But it would be higher than every other American League hitter. In fact, it's higher than every Major League hitter.

Now you're effectively saying that Shohei Ohtani can have (this year and in the future) merely average seasons as a pitcher and hitter...and combine those values to overshadow even the most elite seasons from single-position players.

Let me give you a real world example here.
Ohtani, in your mind and the minds of others here....could hit like Daulton Varsho, pitch like Merrill Kelly....and win the MVP every year.

That's just fukking preposterous.

I never said that. I said if he performs close to this level, he's always the most valuable.

 

[Remote]

I never said that. I said if he performs close to this level, he's always the most valuable.

Fine.
But my point is that people shouldn't be able to combine his values to win awards.

 

[Brozay]

If you took Ohtani's pitching WAR and hitting WAR to date this season it adds up to 7.9. (I'm using Fangraphs' WAR calculation)

Now that 7.9 combined WAR is still...STILL less than Aaron Judge's 8.9 as a hitter only.
But it would be higher than every other American League hitter. In fact, it's higher than every Major League hitter.

Now you're effectively saying that Shohei Ohtani can have (this year and in the future) merely average seasons as a pitcher and hitter...and combine those values to overshadow even the most elite seasons from single-position players.

Let me give you a real world example here.
Ohtani, in your mind and the minds of others here....could hit like Daulton Varsho, pitch like Merrill Kelly....and win the MVP every year.

That's just fukking preposterous.

he's hitting like Pete Alonso tho and pitching like a top 5 SP

"merely average seasons" what are you talking about? you seem better than this take

 

[Remote]

he's hitting like Pete Alonso tho and pitching like a top 5 SP

"merely average seasons" what are you talking about? you seem better than this take

Ohtani's offensive WAR is 3.5 to Judge's 8.9
Ohtani's pitching WAR is 4.4 to Gausman's 5.3

He's not close.
At all.

 

[Regular_P]

Fine.
But my point is that people shouldn't be able to combine his values to win awards.

You don't get to move the goalposts because this guy is a unicorn and the only player we've ever seen do both things at once.

 

[Brozay]

Ohtani's offensive WAR is 3.5 to Judge's 8.9
Ohtani's pitching WAR is 4.4 to Gausman's 5.3

He's not close.
At all.

basic math from the numbers you gave me would tell me he is very close

it’s also confusing that you think him playing both sides penalizes other players while you absolutely write his dual playing off completely as if it’s not something wholly unique to him and just amazing to watch. just an awful take tbh

 

[LurkGod]

Ohtani is second in the AL in home runs and 5th in ERA. You can favor Judge since he’s having a historic season but to say Ohtani isn’t close is asinine.

 

[Remote]

You don't get to move the goalposts because this guy is a unicorn and the only player we've ever seen do both things at once.

I'm not moving goalposts.
I never thought pitchers should be eligible for MVP.

 

[Remote]

basic math from the numbers you gave me would tell me he is very close

it’s also confusing that you think him playing both sides penalizes other players while you absolutely write his dual playing off completely as if it’s not something wholly unique to him and just amazing to watch. just an awful take tbh

It's only very close if a person doesn't understand how big a gap 1.0 WAR actually is.

 

[Remote]

Ohtani is second in the AL in home runs and 5th in ERA. You can favor Judge since he’s having a historic season but to say Ohtani isn’t close is asinine.

ERA might be the single worst stat in sports.