We are living in a world of illusion

[Marks]

Speaking of judgement, look at this synchornicity, uploaded today

straight from a "prosperity gospel" preacher


please overstand

Genesis 50:20

But as for you, you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, in order to bring it about as it is this day, to save many people alive.

 

[Koichos]

Listen: the lord taught me how to draw water from the wilderness and streams from desolate places @ThiefyPoo

While you are consumed with grammar I am consumed with the waters of the lord, waters that never dry

Ha! And I have not even begun to explain diqduq (Hebrew grammar) to you; it is much more complicated than I have let you know: I suppose that would be why schoolchildren spend 12-14 years studying diqduq in order to be able to identify the root that any specific verb is derived from. I may be a terrible pedant, but the reason why I keep going on and on about your erroneous transliterations is that correct pronunciation is critical in Hebrew: changing a single vowel or misplacing an accent (i.e., stress on the wrong syllable) can completely alter the meaning of a word. For example, saying יִרְאוּ yir'ʾU ('they will see') or even יִרְאוּ YIR'ʾu ('they will be afraid') instead of יְראוּ y'RUʾ (the imperative 'fear!') in the verse יְראוּ אֶת־ח׳ קְדֹשָׁיו כִּי אֵין מַחְסוֹר לִירֵאָיו (Tahillim 34:10) which is recited at the end of בִּרְכַּת הַמָּזוֹן—it is just ignorance!

 

[MMS]

Ha! And I have not even begun to explain diqduq (Hebrew grammar) to you; it is much more complicated than I have let you know: I suppose that would be why schoolchildren spend 12-14 years studying diqduq in order to be able to identify the root that any specific verb is derived from. I may be a terrible pedant, but the reason why I keep going on and on about your erroneous transliterations is that correct pronunciation is critical in Hebrew: changing a single vowel or misplacing an accent (i.e., stress on the wrong syllable) can completely alter the meaning of a word. For example, saying יִרְאוּ yir'ʾU ('they will see') or even יִרְאוּ YIR'ʾu ('they will be afraid') instead of יְראוּ y'RUʾ (the imperative 'fear!') in the verse יְראוּ אֶת־ח׳ קְדֹשָׁיו כִּי אֵין מַחְסוֹר לִירֵאָיו (Tahillim 34:10) which is recited at the end of בִּרְכַּת הַמָּזוֹן—it is just ignorance!

Learn me something: what is the foreign fire spoken of with Nadab and Abihu…why does it seem like Aaron sacrificed his sons?

 

[Koichos]

So all the times in the Bible when God requires/allows animal sacrifice, who is that talking?

And what were his people doing for forgiveness?

Prayer, repentance, fasting, charitable deeds...

א. וַיְהִי דְבַר־ה׳ אֶל־יוֹנָה שֵׁנִית לֵאמֹר: ב. קוּם לֵךְ אֶל־נִינְוֵה הָעִיר הַגְּדוֹלָה וּקְרָא אֵלֶיהָ אֶת־הַקְּרִיאָה אֲשֶׁר אָנֹכִי דֹּבֵר אֵלֶיךָ: ג. וַיָּקָם יוֹנָה וַיֵּלֶךְ אֶל־נִינְוֵה כִּדְבַר ה׳ וְנִינְוֵה הָיְתָה עִיר־גְּדוֹלָה לֵאלֹהִים מַהֲלַךְ שְׁלֹשֶׁת יָמִים: ד. וַיָּחֶל יוֹנָה לָבוֹא בָעִיר מַהֲלַךְ יוֹם אֶחָד וַיִּקְרָא וַיֹּאמַר עוֹד אַרְבָּעִים יוֹם וְנִינְוֵה נֶהְפָּכֶת: ה. וַיַּאֲמִינוּ אַנְשֵׁי נִינְוֵה בֵּאלֹהִים וַיִּקְרְאוּ־צוֹם וַיִּלְבְּשׁוּ שַׂקִּים מִגְּדוֹלָם וְעַד־קְטַנָּם: ו. וַיִּגַּע הַדָּבָר אֶל־מֶלֶךְ נִינְוֵה וַיָּקָם מִכִּסְאוֹ וַיַּעֲבֵר אַדַּרְתּוֹ מֵעָלָיו וַיְכַס שַׂק וַיֵּשֶׁב עַל־הָאֵפֶר: ז. וַיַּזְעֵק וַיֹּאמֶר בְּנִינְוֵה מִטַּעַם הַמֶּלֶךְ וּגְדֹלָיו לֵאמֹר הָאָדָם וְהַבְּהֵמָה הַבָּקָר וְהַצֹּאן אַל־יִטְעֲמוּ מְאוּמָה אַל־יִרְעוּ וּמַיִם אַל־יִשְׁתּוּ: ח. וְיִתְכַּסּוּ שַׂקִּים הָאָדָם וְהַבְּהֵמָה וְיִקְרְאוּ אֶל־אֱלֹהִים בְּחָזְקָה וְיָשֻׁבוּ אִישׁ מִדַּרְכּוֹ הָרָעָה וּמִן־הֶחָמָס אֲשֶׁר בְּכַפֵּיהֶם: ט. מִי־יוֹדֵעַ יָשׁוּב וְנִחַם הָאֱלֹהִים וְשָׁב מֵחֲרוֹן אַפּוֹ וְלֹא נֹאבֵד: י. וַיַּרְא הָאֱלֹהִים אֶת־מַעֲשֵׂיהֶם כִּי־שָׁבוּ מִדַּרְכָּם הָרָעָה וַיִּנָּחֶם הָאֱלֹהִים עַל־הָרָעָה אֲשֶׁר־דִּבֶּר לַעֲשׂוֹת־לָהֶם וְלֹא עָשָׂה:​

1A second message from Hashem came to Yonoh: 2'Stand up, go to that great city Nin'wéh, and make there the announcement that I shall tell you'. 3So Yonoh stood up and went to Nin'wéh, as Hashem had commanded him. Now Nin'wéh was an enormously large city—it was three days' walk across. 4Yonoh started to walk into the city and, when he had gone about one day's walk, he began to call out: 'Nin'wéh will be overthrown in forty days' time!' 5Now the people of Nin'wéh believed in ʾAlohim, so they declared a Public Fast and dressed themselves in sacking [see also Yir'm'yohu 6:26, ʾAstér 4:1 - in Scriptural times fasting was accompanied by the symbolic act of dressing in sacking, which was commonly worn as a sign of mourning and repentance], from the greatest to the least of them. 6When Nin'wéh's king heard about it, even he rose from his throne, removed his royal robes, dressed himself in sacking, and sat on ashes; 7on the advice of his officials he ordered that a proclamation should be made throughout Nin'wéh: 'Neither man nor livestock—both cattle and sheep—is to eat or drink anything [taʿanith - fasting]; 8all of them—both people and livestock—must cover themselves in sacking and cry out loudly to ʾAlohim [t'filloh - prayer]! All men must turn away from their wicked ways and abandon the violence in their hands [t'shuvoh - repentance]! 9Who knows, perhaps ʾAlohim will relent, and turn His blazing fury away from us and not destroy us?' 10And when ʾAlohim saw their deeds—that they had turned away from their wicked ways— ʾAlohim relented on the destruction He had decreed that He would bring upon them—and He did not do it.
(Yonoh 3:1-10)

The sacrificial offerings are not an essential and indespensible feature of Judaism without which the entire system collapses. They are not the only route to atonement and, even then, merely atoned for specific infringements (e.g., the defiant and willful sinner cannot atone by way of offerings, B'midhbor 15:30-31). The prophets speak frequently about the 'route' to atonement that they say Hashem prefers:

כִּי לֹא־דִבַּרְתִּי אֶת־אֲבוֹתֵיכֶם וְלֹא צִוִּיתִים בְּיוֹם הוֹצִיאִ אוֹתָם מֵאֶרֶץ מִצְרָיִם עַל־דִּבְרֵי עוֹלָה וָזָבַח: כִּי אִם־אֶת־הַדָּבָר הַזֶּה צִוִּיתִי אוֹתָם לֵאמֹר שִׁמְעוּ בְקוֹלִי וְהָיִיתִי לָכֶם לֵאלֹהִים וְאַתֶּם תִּהְיוּ־לִי לְעָם וַהֲלַכְתֶּם בְּכָל־הַדֶּרֶךְ אֲשֶׁר אֲצַוֶּה אֶתְכֶם לְמַעַן יִיטַב לָכֶם׃​

[So says Hashem, Yisroʾel's ʾAlohim:] I did not speak to your forefathers or command them about ʾoloh-offerings or sacrifices on the day that I brought them from the land of Missroyim, but I commanded them only about this one thing: 'Obey My Voice, and I will be your ʾAlohim and you will be My nation; and then you will walk in all the ways that I will command you and it will be well with you'. (Yir'm'yohu 7:22-23)

כִּי חֶסֶד חָפַצְתִּי וְלֹא־זָבַח וְדַעַת אֱלֹהִים מֵעֹלוֹת׃​

'For I delight in kindness rather than sacrifice and in closeness to ʾAlohim more than ʾoloh-offerings.' (Hosheʿa 6:6)

בַּמָּה אֲקַדֵּם ה׳ אִכַּף לֵאלֹהֵי מָרוֹם הַאֲקַדְּמֶנּוּ בְעוֹלוֹת בַּעֲגָלִים בְּנֵי שָׁנָה: הֲיִרְצֶה ה׳ בְּאַלְפֵי אֵילִים בְּרִבְבוֹת נַחֲלֵי־שָׁמֶן הַאֶתֵּן בְּכוֹרִי פִּשְׁעִי פְּרִי בִטְנִי חַטַּאת נַפְשִׁי: הִגִּיד לְךָ אָדָם מַה־טּוֹב וּמָה־ה׳ דּוֹרֵשׁ מִמְּךָ כִּי אִם־עֲשׂוֹת מִשְׁפָּט וְאַהֲבַת חֶסֶד וְהַצְנֵעַ לֶכֶת עִם־אֱלֹהֶיךָ׃​

'With what shall I approach Hashem and bow myself before the Supreme ʾAlohim? Shall I approach Him with ʾoloh-sacrifices or calves in their first year? Will Hashem be pleased by thousands of rams, or myriads of rivers of oil? Shall I give my own firstborn child [in payment] for my rebellion or the fruit of my own belly [in payment] for my soul's errors? Humankind, He has already told you what is 'good' and what it is that Hashem wants of you: only this—to act justly, to love kindness and to walk modestly with your ʾAlohim!' (Michoh 6:6-8)

בְּחֶסֶד וֶאֱמֶת יְכֻפַּר עָוֺן וּבְיִרְאַת ה׳ סוּר מֵרָע׃​

'Sin can be atoned through kindness and truth; one turns from wrongdoing through [showing] respect for Hashem.' (Mish'lé 16:6)

עֲשֹׂה צְדָקָה וּמִשְׁפָּט נִבְחָר לַה׳ מִזָּבַח׃​

'Charitable deeds and justice [are] more pleasing to Hashem than any sacrifice.' (Mish'lé 21:3)

לָהֵן מַלְכָּא מִלְכִּי יִשְׁפַּר עֲלָךְ וַחֲטָאָךְ בְּצִדְקָה פְרֻק וַעֲוָיָתָךְ בְּמִחַן עֲנָיִן הֵן תֶּהֱוֵה אַרְכָה לִשְׁלֵוְתָךְ׃​

'So, Your Majesty, may my advice be acceptable to you: your sins will be removed by charitable deeds and your wrongdoings [will be removed] by showing mercy to the poor—perhaps there will be [granted] an extension of your prosperity.' (Doniyyʾel 4:24)

The prophet Y'shaʿyohu sums all of this up in his opening chapter.

לָמָּה־לִּי רֹב־זִבְחֵיכֶם יֹאמַר ה׳ שָׂבַעְתִּי עֹלוֹת אֵילִים וְחֵלֶב מְרִיאִים וְדַם פָּרִים וּכְבָשִׂים וְעַתּוּדִים לֹא חָפָצְתִּי: כִּי תָבֹאוּ לֵרָאוֹת פָּנָי מִי־בִקֵּשׁ זֹאת מִיֶּדְכֶם רְמֹס חֲצֵרָי: לֹא תוֹסִיפוּ הָבִיא מִנְחַת־שָׁוְא קְטֹרֶת תּוֹעֵבָה הִיא לִי חֹדֶשׁ וְשַׁבָּת קְרֹא מִקְרָא לֹא־אוּכַל אָוֶן וַעֲצָרָה: חָדְשֵׁיכֶם וּמוֹעֲדֵיכֶם שָׂנְאָה נַפְשִׁי הָיוּ עָלַי לָטֹרַח נִלְאֵיתִי נְשֹׂא: וּבְפָרִשְׂכֶם כַּפֵּיכֶם אַעְלִים עֵינַי מִכֶּם גַּם כִּי־תַרְבּוּ תְפִלָּה אֵינֶנִּי שֹׁמֵעַ יְדֵיכֶם דָּמִים מָלֵאוּ: רַחֲצוּ הִזַּכּוּ הָסִירוּ רֹעַ מַעַלְלֵיכֶם מִנֶּגֶד עֵינָי חִדְלוּ הָרֵעַ: לִמְדוּ הֵיטֵב דִּרְשׁוּ מִשְׁפָּט אַשְּׁרוּ חָמוֹץ שִׁפְטוּ יָתוֹם רִיבוּ אַלְמָנָה: לְכוּ־נָא וְנִוָּכְחָה יֹאמַר ה׳ אִם־יִהְיוּ חֲטָאֵיכֶם כַּשָּׁנִים כַּשֶּׁלֶג יַלְבִּינוּ אִם־יַאְדִּימוּ כַתּוֹלָע כַּצֶּמֶר יִהְיוּ: ​

'Of what use to Me is your great number of sacrifices?' Hashem says—'I am fed up with ʾoloh-offerings of rams and the offals of fattened calves; the blood of oxen, lambs and goats does not give Me pleasure. When you come to appear in front of Me—who asked this of you, to come trodding through My courtyards? Do not bring any more of your senseless min'hoh-offerings—I find them a repulsive stench; Roʾsh Hodhash, Shabboth, even the Festival assemblies—I cannot tolerate corruption mixed with 'worship'. My soul detests your Roʾsh Hodhash and Festival observances, for they have become monotonous to Me; I can no longer put up with them. When you hold up your hands [a reference to the kohanim delivering the ceremonial bir'kath hakkohanim 'blessing' to the congregation as prescribed in B'midhbor 6:23-26] I shall hide My eyes from you; I will not hear you no matter how many t'filloth you say—for your hands are covered with blood! Wash, purify yourselves, remove the evil of your deeds from in front of My eyes, and stop doing wrong! Learn to do right, seek justice, protect victims, treat orphans justly, and support the claims of widows. Come, please, let us discuss this rationally,' Hashem says; 'even if your sins are like bright crimson, I shall bleach them as white as snow: even if they are as red as toloʿ [a bright scarlet dye] I shall make them like [the color of] wool!' (Y'shaʿyohu 1:11-18)

How much more clearly could Y'shaʿyohu have expressed the idea that Hashem prefers sincere prayer to the slaughter of animals?

What is the point of having a system of sacrifices in Judaism at the time?

Or was it all just “part of the story” we can learn from today?

Abraham looked up and there in a thicket he saw a ram caught by its horns. He went over and took the ram and sacrificed it as a burnt offering instead of his son. So Abraham called that place The LORD Will Provide. And to this day it is said, "On the mountain of the LORD it will be provided."

Maybe @Koichos can answer?

The sacrificial system was part of the Temple ritual (although many of the offerings brought were not animal offerings).

All offerings had to be performed in the Temple because it was unlawful to do them anywhere else (D'vorim 12:13-14).

The concept of prayer and repentance taking the place of animal sacrifice is written right there in the T'na"ch. Indeed, in his final chapter, Hosheʿa son of Bʾeri (who, according to the ğ'moroʾ—Treatise P'sohim, folio pei-zayin, column ʾalaf—was a greater prophet than any of his contemporaries Y'shaʿyohu, ʿAmos and Michoh) says exactly that; he gives some practical advice to those of 'Yisroʾel's descendants' who 'will be left without a king or a prince, sacrifices or obelisks, ʾefodh or t'rofim [i.e., left without a Temple] for many years' (see Hosheʿa 3:4-5):

כִּי ׀ יָמִים רַבִּים יֵשְׁבוּ בְּנֵי יִשְׂרָאֵל אֵין מֶלֶךְ וְאֵין שָׂר וְאֵין זֶבַח וְאֵין מַצֵּבָה וְאֵין אֵפוֹד וּתְרָפִים: אַחַר יָשֻׁבוּ בְּנֵי יִשְׂרָאֵל וּבִקְשׁוּ אֶת־ה׳ אֱלֹהֵיהֶם וְאֵת דָּוִיד מַלְכָּם וּפָחֲדוּ אֶל־ה׳ וְאֶל־טוּבוֹ בְּאַחֲרִית הַיָּמִים׃​

Yisroʾel's descendants will be left without a king or a prince, sacrifices or obelisks, ʾefodh or t'rofim for many years; but after that, Yisroʾel's descendants will repent and seek out Hashem their ʾAlohim and their Dowidhic king, and in those later times they will tremble for Hashem and for His goodness. (Hosheʿa 3:4-5)

:שׁוּבָה יִשְׂרָאֵל עַד ה׳ אֱלֹקֶיךָ כִּי כָשַׁלְתָּ בַּעֲוֺנֶךָ: עַל־כֵּן תֶּאֱבַל הָאָרֶץ וְאֻמְלַל כָּל־יוֹשֵׁב בָּהּ בְּחַיַּת הַשָּׂדֶה וּבְעוֹף הַשָּׁמָיִם וְגַם־דְּגֵי הַיָּם יֵאָסֵפוּ​

Yisroʾel, return to Hashem your ʾAlohim—your sins have caused you to stumble! Take words [i.e., prayers] with you and return to Hashem; say to Him: 'Oh please, forgive our sins and accept our good [deeds]—and we will pay with our lips in the place of [sacrificial] oxen.' (Hosheʿa 14:3)

 

[Koichos]

Learn me something: what is the foreign fire spoken of with Nadab and Abihu…why does it seem like Aaron sacrificed his sons?

Hashem specified what kinds of animals He wanted offered to Him (i) on what occasions and (ii) for what purposes, and anything else is classified as אֵשׁ זָרָה אֲשֶׁר לֹא צִוָּה אֹתָם ʾesh zoroh ʾashar loʾ ssiwwoh ʾothom ('foreign [i.e., 'unacceptable'] fire that He had not commanded them [to offer]')—and Wayyiq'roʾ 10:1 tells you what happened to Nodhov and ʾAvihuʾ when they offered 'ʾesh zoroh' on the Great Altar.

 

[MMS]

Prayer, repentance, fasting, charitable deeds...


The sacrificial offerings are not an essential and indespensible feature of Judaism without which the entire system collapses. They are not the only route to atonement and, even then, merely atoned for specific infringements (e.g., the defiant and willful sinner cannot atone by way of offerings, B'midhbor 15:30-31). The prophets speak frequently about the 'route' to atonement that they say Hashem prefers:


The prophet Y'shaʿyohu sums all of this up in his opening chapter.

How much more clearly could Y'shaʿyohu have expressed the idea that Hashem prefers sincere prayer to the slaughter of animals?


The sacrificial system was part of the Temple ritual (although many of the offerings brought were not animal offerings).

All offerings had to be performed in the Temple because it was unlawful to do them anywhere else (D'vorim 12:13-14).

The concept of prayer and repentance taking the place of animal sacrifice is written right there in the T'na"ch. Indeed, in his final chapter, Hosheʿa son of Bʾeri (who, according to the ğ'moroʾ—Treatise P'sohim, folio pei-zayin, column ʾalaf—was a greater prophet than any of his contemporaries Y'shaʿyohu, ʿAmos and Michoh) says exactly that; he gives some practical advice to those of 'Yisroʾel's descendants' who 'will be left without a king or a prince, sacrifices or obelisks, ʾefodh or t'rofim [i.e., left without a Temple] for many years' (see Hosheʿa 3:4-5):

Well said for the first time in this thread, I hear him in you.

I guess for us outsiders we must beware our own understandings lest they blind us

My first paladin died a lower yodh and a upper yodh leaning on a vav

 

[DoubleClutch]

Prayer, repentance, fasting, charitable deeds...


The sacrificial offerings are not an essential and indespensible feature of Judaism without which the entire system collapses. They are not the only route to atonement and, even then, merely atoned for specific infringements (e.g., the defiant and willful sinner cannot atone by way of offerings, B'midhbor 15:30-31). The prophets speak frequently about the 'route' to atonement that they say Hashem prefers:


The prophet Y'shaʿyohu sums all of this up in his opening chapter.

How much more clearly could Y'shaʿyohu have expressed the idea that Hashem prefers sincere prayer to the slaughter of animals?


The sacrificial system was part of the Temple ritual (although many of the offerings brought were not animal offerings).

All offerings had to be performed in the Temple because it was unlawful to do them anywhere else (D'vorim 12:13-14).

The concept of prayer and repentance taking the place of animal sacrifice is written right there in the T'na"ch. Indeed, in his final chapter, Hosheʿa son of Bʾeri (who, according to the ğ'moroʾ—Treatise P'sohim, folio pei-zayin, column ʾalaf—was a greater prophet than any of his contemporaries Y'shaʿyohu, ʿAmos and Michoh) says exactly that; he gives some practical advice to those of 'Yisroʾel's descendants' who 'will be left without a king or a prince, sacrifices or obelisks, ʾefodh or t'rofim [i.e., left without a Temple] for many years' (see Hosheʿa 3:4-5):

Yea I understand and agree with the concept on not needing animal sacrifices especially from a Christian point of view

But the point is, that it wasn’t a BAD thing or incorrect thing that was done

In hindsight you can say or think what you want
But the overall theme of sacrifice (animal or otherwise) is constant throughout the OT Bible narrative

Of course you say it was one of reasons for having a functioning temple

But if Prayer, repentance, fasting, charitable deeds... is really the ONLY way to please God then there would be no instances of Animal sacrifices in the Bible

Unless you believe

1. God changes over time
2. There is more than 1 God talking in the Bible (the “bad” one asking for sacrifices)
3. There is error in the scriptures

I think @MMS believes at least one of the above

Just because other false pagan religions practice similar type methods of animal sacrifices doesn’t make it a bad thing..... or an act that points to some type of demonic/ancestors summoning

Why would you try to put God in a box or change your conception of God based on what non believers do.

 

[MMS]

I think your bullet points are misleading @DoubleClutch

All meat/food offerings were meant to be consumed by either the priest(s) or the people present. God does not need our food. So when you see “sin and burnt offering” it is because then to slay one of your animals of your flock was only out of hunger and need not the cookout like we have today. So the idea of an altar as you know it was markedly different back then and eating without getting sick was also a big focus

God doesn’t change, there is no error in either OT/NT scriptures just errors in interpretation

In our modern world ancient people would be flabbergasted at the immense quantity of meat available on demand anytime as well as all of the creature comforts we have fashioned for ourselves. Today would appear to be paradise to them

 

[Koichos]

Yea I understand and agree with the concept on not needing animal sacrifices especially from a Christian point of view

But the point is, that it wasn’t a BAD thing or incorrect thing that was done

And that is why I do not experience any pangs of uneasiness when reciting prayers such as

כֵּן יְיָ אֱלֹהֵינוּ וֵאלֹהֵי אֲבוֹתֵינוּ יַגִּיעֵנוּ לְמוֹעֲדִים וְלִרְגָלִים אֲחֵרִים הַבָּאִים לִקְרָאתֵנוּ לְשָׁלוֹם, שְׂמֵחִים בְּבִנְיַן עִירֶךָ וְשָׂשִׂים בַּעֲבוֹדָתֶךָ—וְנֹאכַל שָׁם מִן הַזְּבָחִים וּמִן הַפְּסָחִים אֲשֶׁר יַגִּיעַ דָּמָם עַל קִיר מִזְבַּחֲךָ לְרָצוֹן​

'So, Hashem, our ʾAlohim, and ʾAlohim of our ancestors, will bring us to other holy days and pilgrimmage festivals that are coming in the future, rejoicing at the rebuilding of Your city and being happy in Your worship—and there we will eat from the festive offerings and the Pasah animals whose blood will be splashed against the panels of Your altar for Your favor...'

But the overall theme of sacrifice (animal or otherwise) is constant throughout the OT Bible narrative

Of course you say it was one of reasons for having a functioning temple

But if Prayer, repentance, fasting, charitable deeds... is really the ONLY way to please God then there would be no instances of Animal sacrifices in the Bible

Blood was only to be used on the Great Altar and must be poured away in the dirt otherwise (D'vorim 12:16, 12:24, 15:23, etc.). We are living in an era with no Temple and no altar and so 'offerings' are completely irrelevant to Jewish life. Historically—prayer, repentance, fasting and charitable deeds were performed along with sacrificial offerings; today—without a Temple, life goes on as it did during the 353, 354, 355, 383, 384 or 385 days a year for the entirety of the seventy years between the destruction of Sh'lomoh's Temple until the Second Temple's completion (prayer, repentance, fasting, charitable deeds, refraining from m'loʾchoh, etc.). Observant Jews pray for forgiveness in all three t'filloth recited every single day (morning, afternoon and evening)—and perform t'shuvoh for any particular offence committed.

The Torah itself emphasizes that, while there was going to come a time when it would no longer be possible for the blood-sacrifices to be performed, we would nevertheless still have 'atonement' and the Torah makes this clear by reiterating that the fasting provision and refraining from m'loʾchoh (e.g., on Yom Kippur) are to be a huqqath ʿolom—'an eternal statute'; though it never says that the sacrificial offerings were going to be performed 'forever'. Yom Kippur is actually just a [kind of] 'safety net', a day when we assemble as a nation in our botei k'nesiyyoth ('prayer-halls') and botei midhroshim ('study-halls') to make a generalized confession before Hashem of all the sins for which we have not already made atonement in one or more of the ways prescribed in the T'na"ch and to beg Him to forgive us.

Unless you believe

1. God changes over time

Chapter 3 of Malʾochi is the very place where Hashem says that He does not change (verse 6).

2. There is more than 1 God talking in the Bible (the “bad” one asking for sacrifices)

D'vorim 4:35 and 4:39 (see also M'lochim ʾAlaf 8:60) are the ultimate affirmation of Judaism's absolute monotheism.

:אַתָּה הָרְאֵתָ לָדַעַת כִּי ה׳ הוּא הָאֱלֹקִים אֵין עוֹד מִלְּבַדּוֹ​

You have been shown these things so you should know that Hashem—He is the ʾAlohim: there is no-one else apart from him! (D'vorim 4:35)

וְיָדַעְתָּ הַיּוֹם וַהֲשֵׁבֹתָ אֶל־לְבָבֶךָ כִּי ה׳ הוּא הָאֱלֹקִים בַּשָּׁמַיִם מִמַּעַל וְעַל־הָאָרֶץ מִתָּחַת אֵין עוֹד׃​

You must know this today and consider it in your mind that Hashem—He is the ʾAlohim in Heaven above and on the Earth below: there is no-one else! (D'vorim 4:39)

:לְמַעַן דַּעַת כָּל־עַמֵּי הָאָרֶץ כִּי ה׳ הוּא הָאֱלֹקִים אֵין עוֹד​

...in order that all the nations of the Earth know that Hashem—He is the ʾAlohim: there is no-one else! (M'lochim ʾAlaf 8:60)

כִּי מִי אֱלוֹהַּ מִבַּלְעֲדֵי ה׳
:וּמִי צוּר זוּלָתִי אֱלֹקֵינוּ​

For who is a God other than Hashem,
and who is a Rock apart from our God? (Tahillim 18:32)

3. There is error in the scriptures

Actually, there are several minor errors in the eleven K'thuvim ('[Other] Writings/Scriptures'), especially in the Book Div'ré Hayyomim ('the Chronicle') which was written by the scribe ʿAzroʾ who did not have access to the 'Royal Diaries'—which the prophet Yir'm'yohu made use of when he composed the Book M'lochim ('Kings')—but we are aware of those and we also know the reasons why they are there. Thus, for example, ʿAzroʾ gets ʾAhaz'yohu's age when he succeeded his father Yorom (or Y'horom) as king of Y'hudhoh incorrect: he gives it as forty-two (Div'ré Hayyomim Béth 22:2), but ʾAhaz'yohu was in fact only twenty-two years old (M'lochim Béth 8:26); his father had come to the throne at the age of thirty-two and reigned for eight years (M'lochim Béth 8:17; Div'ré Hayyomim Béth 21:5,20).

This means that ʾAhaz'yohu's father, Yorom (also known as Y'horom), was only forty years old when he died and was succeeded by his son. The scribe ʿAzroʾ makes another mistake in the case of Y'hoyochin (also known as Y'chon'yoh and as Kon'yoh), giving his age in Div'ré Hayyomim Béth 36:9 as only eight years old, when in fact he was actually ten years older than that (see M'lochim Béth 24:8). So who is right and who is wrong? Remember that Yir'm'yohu (who wrote M'lochim) was the son of a Head Kohen (Hil'qiyyohu—see, for example, Yir'm'yohu 1:1, M'lochim Béth 22:4, 22:8, 23:4, Div'ré Hayyomim Béth 34:9) and so he had access to the 'Royal Diaries'; but, by the time that ʿAzroʾ came to compose Div'ré Hayyomim—after the Return to Y'rusholayim—the Diaries were no longer in existence.

We Jews have never claimed that any part of the T'na"ch (the original Hebrew and Aramaic text of the twenty-four books that comprise the 'Bible') other than the Torah (the so-described 'Five Books of Moshah') was authored by the Creator Himself and must therefore be 'perfect' and free of any error. We have never made any such claim regarding the eight N'viʾim ('Prophetic Books'—i.e., the four 'Earlier Prophetic Books' Y'hoshuʿa, Shof'ṭim, Sh'muʾel, M'lochim and the four 'Later Prophetic Books' Y'shaʿyohu, Yir'm'yohu, Y'hazqeʾl, Taré ʿAsar) or the eleven K'thuvim ('Other Scriptures'—i.e., the three 'ʾAmath' books: Tahillim, Mish'lé, ʾIyyov; the five 'M'gilloth': Shir ha-Shirim, Ruth, ʾEichoh (or 'Qinoth'), Qohalath, ʾAstér; and the three post-exilic books: Doniyyeʾl, ʿAzroʾ-N'hamyoh, Div'ré Hayyomim).

The entire Torah (including the description of Moshah's own death and burial) was dictated word-by-word to Moshah by the Ribbono shal ʿOlom. Moshah only wrote it down; he did not actually compose any of the text. The opening verse of the book of D'vorim reads 'These are the things that Moshah spoke to all Yisroʾel...'; it does not use the first person '...that I spoke...', because Hashem composed the contents of the five Torah books Himself and dictated their contents word-by-word to Moshah at Mount Horev in the Sinai Desert.

וַיֹּאמֶר ה׳ אֶל־מֹשֶׁה
עֲלֵה אֵלַי הָהָרָה וֶהְיֵה־שָׁם
וְאֶתְּנָה לְךָ
אֶת־לֻחֹת הָאֶבֶן וְהַתּוֹרָה וְהַמִּצְוָה
אֲשֶׁר כָּתַבְתִּי
לְהוֹרֹתָם​

Then Hashem said to Moshah,
'Come up onto the mountain to Me and wait [literally, 'and be'] there,
and then I will give you
[i] the luhoth and [ii] the Torah and [iii] the miss'woh
that I have written
[for you] to teach to them'. (Sh'moth 24:12)

------------

(i) The five books of the Torah (B'reshιth, Sh'moth, Wayyiq'roʾ, B'midhbor and D'vorim) are books of the highest level of Divine involvement, composed by the Ribbono shal ʿOlom and dictated by Him, word for word, to Moshah Rabbenu ('our Teacher, Moshah') who then wrote it down.

(ii) The eight N'viʾim ('Prophetic Books'), i.e., Y'hoshuʿa, Shof'ṭim, Sh'muʾel, M'lochim, Y'shaʿyohu, Yir'm'yohu, Y'hazqeʾl and Taré ʿAsar, are books of the intermediate level of Divine involvement, in which the authors were influenced by the Ribbono shal ʿOlom to write even though He left it to them what they wrote.

(iii) The eleven K'thuvim ('Other Writings'), i.e., Tahillim, Mish'lé, ʾIyyov, Shir ha-Shirim, Ruth, ʾEichoh, Qohalath, ʾAstér, Doniyyeʾl, ʿAzroʾ-N'hamyoh and Div'ré Hayyomim, are books of the lowest level of Divine involvement—they are 'sacred literature', but the Ribbono shal ʿOlom neither composed them nor even directly influenced the authors to write them.​

 

[MMS]

@Koichos you're the first person to tell me you only believe in the infallibility of the five books of Moses and not the others

no Christian would claim books of the OT were not from the Holy spirit....but speaking of this topic: I have debated @Everythingg over the veracity of Kohaleth/Ecclesiastes and whether it should even be considered

In my experience, I do not think it should for similar reasons to other biblical apocrypha, what is your take on Ecclesiastes (specifically 3):

Bible Gateway passage: Ecclesiastes 3 - King James Version

To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven: A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted; A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up; A time to weep, and a time to...

www.biblegateway.com

Ive meditated on it, and something just seems off about it seems like luck that it made it in

Ecclesiastes - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Despite the acceptance by some of this structure, there have been many criticisms, such as that of Fox: "[Addison G. Wright's] proposed structure has no more effect on interpretation than a ghost in the attic. A literary or rhetorical structure should not merely 'be there'; it must do something. It should guide readers in recognizing and remembering the author's train of thought."[11]

Verse 1:1 is a superscription, the ancient equivalent of a title page: it introduces the book as "the words of Kohelet, son of David, king in Jerusalem."[12]

Most, though not all, modern commentators regard the epilogue (12:9–14) as an addition by a later scribe. Some have identified certain other statements as further additions intended to make the book more religiously orthodox (e.g., the affirmations of God's justice and the need for piety).[13]

It has been proposed that the text is composed of three distinct voices. The first belongs to Qoheleth as the prophet, the "true voice of wisdom",[14] which speaks in the first person, recounting wisdom through his own experience. The second voice belongs to Qoheleth as the king of Jerusalem, who is more didactic and thus speaks primarily in second-person imperative statements. The third voice is that of the epilogist, who speaks proverbially in the third person. The epilogist is most identified in the book's first and final verses. Kyle R. Greenwood suggests that following this structure, Ecclesiastes should be read as a dialogue between these voices.[14]

Spoiler

Ecclesiastes 3:17-19

17 I said in mine heart, God shall judge the righteous and the wicked: for there is a time there for every purpose and for every work.

18 I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.

19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.

Science eventually leads back to God

Actually, what you said isn't true. Genesis 1:1 KJV In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. God is not subject to time, space or matter as He is outside of it. If you choose to believe something came from nothing you would be a hypocrite. You believe the entire universe came...

www.thecoli.com

Isaiah 40:23-25

23 That bringeth the princes to nothing; he maketh the judges of the earth as vanity.

24 Yea, they shall not be planted; yea, they shall not be sown: yea, their stock shall not take root in the earth: and he shall also blow upon them, and they shall wither, and the whirlwind shall take them away as stubble.

25 To whom then will ye liken me, or shall I be equal? saith the Holy One.

We are living in a world of illusion

No young Breh. The real question is Jiqqa who ? :russ:

www.thecoli.com

 

[Koichos]

@Koichos you're the first person to tell me you only believe in the infallibility of the five books of Moses and not the others

Let's be clear about one thing: the T'na"ch in the original languages (mostly Hebrew with a few short passages in Aramaic) contains no errors in the Torah or N'viʾim sections (there are, however, a few minor errors in the K'thuvim section which I highlighted above)—but only the five books of the Torah were actually composed by the Creator and must therefore be 'perfect' and free of any error. I prefer to say that the Creator composed the text of the Torah and dictated its contents word-by-word to Moshah Rabbenu at Mount Horev in the Sinai Desert, who then put it into writing (i.e., wrote it down on parchment). The Torah was then transmitted to Moshah's successor, Y'hoshuʿa bin Nun... who transmitted it to Z'qenim... who transmitted it to N'viʾm... who transmitted it to ʾAn'shei K'nasath Hağ'dholoh...

מֹשֶׁה קִבֵּל תּוֹרָה מִסִּינַי וּמְסָרָהּ לִיהוֹשֻׁעַ
וִיהוֹשֻׁעַ לִזְקֵנִים
וּזְקֵנִים לִנְבִיאִים
וּנְבִיאִים מְסָרוּהָ לְאַנְשֵׁי כְנֶסֶת הַגְּדוֹלָה​

Moshah received the Torah [which includes both Torah sha-bich'thov and Torah sha-bʿal pah] from Sinai and transmitted it to Y'hoshuʿa,
and Y'hoshuʿa [transmitted it] to the Z'qenim ('Elders'),
and the Z'qenim [transmitted it] to the N'viʾim ('Prophets'),
and the N'viʾim transmitted it to the ʾAn'shei K'nasath Hağ'dholoh ('Men of the Great Synod')...

שִׁמְעוֹן הַצַּדִּיק הָיָה מִשְּׁיָרֵי אַנְשֵׁי כְנֶסֶת הַגְּדוֹלָה​

Shimʿon ha-Ssaddiq was one of the last members of the K'nasath Hağ'dholoh...

אַנְטִיגְנוֹס אִישׁ סוֹכוֹ קִבֵּל מִשִּׁמְעוֹן הַצַּדִּיק​

ʾAnṭig'nos of Socho received from Shimʿon ha-Ssaddiq...

יוֹסֵי בֶּן יוֹעֶזֶר אִישׁ צְרֵדָה וְיוֹסֵי בֶּן יוֹחָנָן אִישׁ רוּשָׁלַיִם קִבְּלוּ מֵהֶם​

Yosei ban Yoʿazar a man of Ss'redhoh, and Yosei ban Yohonon a man of Y'rusholayim, received from them...

יְהוֹשֻׁעַ בֶּן פְּרַחְיָה וְנִתַּאי הָאַרְבֵּלִי קִבְּלוּ מֵהֶם​

Y'hoshuʿa ban P'rah'yoh and Nittaʾi of ʾAr'bel received from them...

יְהוּדָה בֶּן טַבַּאי וְשִׁמְעוֹן בֶּן שֶׁטַח קִבְּלוּ מֵהֶם​

Y'hudhoh ban Ṭabbaʾi and Shimʿon ban Shaṭah received from them...

שְׁמַעְיָה וְאַבְטַלְיוֹן קִבְּלוּ מֵהֶם​

Sh'maʿyoh and ʾAvṭal'yon received from them...

הִלֵּל וְשַׁמַּאי קִבְּלוּ מֵהֶם​

Hillel and Shammaʾi received from them.

[מסכת אבות פרק א׳]​

no Christian would claim books of the OT were not from...

These minor inconsistencies present no problem for us Jews because we make no claim that the eleven K'thuvim are completely free of errors. In fact, many xian perversions and mistranslation actually change the text to read twenty-two in 'II Chronicles' 22:2 (as opposed to forty-two) and eighteen in 'II Chronicles' 36:9 (as opposed to eight; and some include a footnote indicating that the Hebrew original says forty-two in the first case and eight in the second case, whereas others do not even bother—thus concealing the error completely). The xians may like to delude themselves that their 'bible' is totally accurate and without error, but we have never made any such claim.

The xian doctrine of 'Inerrancy' (which holds that the Bible is totally accurate and without error of any kind) misleads xians—and even some unlearned Jews who have not been educated in the proper reading of the T'na"ch (and there is an 'official' Hebrew understanding of the text, generally speaking)—into the mistaken belief that there are not, and cannot be, any mistakes at all anywhere in the T'na"ch. But never forget that the T'na"ch was our sacred literature centuries before the xians purloined it and claimed it as their own—and then started pretending they know all there is to know about it, never mind the fact that they cannot even read the actual text for themselves!

...the Holy spirit....

The only 'spirit' the majority of xians ever have any contact with is the one that features in M'lochim ʾAlaf 22:20-22 & Div'ré Hayyomim Béth 18:19-21... anyway, that term does not exist in the T'na"ch and is an invention of the xians. The Hebrew for 'the holy spirit'—הרוח הקדוש [masc.] or הרוח הקדושה [fem.] (because רוח ru'ah is a noun of common gender in Hebrew, although it is most commonly treated as feminine and the second form given would be the more likely)—is not found anywhere, in any form, in the twenty-four books of T'na"ch.

but speaking of this topic: I have debated @Everythingg over the veracity of Kohaleth/Ecclesiastes and whether it should even be considered

As I have written in the past, the twenty-four books that comprise the T'na"ch (Bible) were selected and even their order determined by the ʾan'shei k'nasath hağ'dholoh (the 'Members of the Great Synod'), the legislative assembly who governed Yisroʾel during the Second Commonwealth period following ʿAzroʾ uN'hamyoh; the k'nasath hağ'dholoh ('Great Synod') flourished at the beginning of the Second Temple. Accordingly, the T'na"ch predates by four or five centuries 'Yavnah', the site near Gaza that Rabbon Gam'liyeʾl II d'Yavnah ('of Yavnah'), the great-great-grandson of Hillel I ha-Zoqen ('the Elder') who presided over the Synhedrion through fifteen generations from father to son, relocated the Great Synhedrion to around 90 CE from Y'rusholayim in the wake of the fall of the Second Temple in 68 CE.

The books that were excluded from the canon of the T'na"ch as unreliable and are now known as the 'apocrypha' (i.e., s'forim hissonim, 'external [i.e., heretical] books) were discarded by the ʾan'shei k'nasath hağ'dholoh ('Members of the Great Synod') in or soon after the time of the scribe ʿAzroʾ. Those texts are classed as 's'forim hissonim' by our Sages of antiquity (e.g., Treatise Sanhédhrin, folio ssaddi, column ʾalaf; folio quf, column béth) because some of the concepts they touch upon are inconsistent with Jewish theology and culture, so they were excluded from the Hebrew Canon and hidden away, strenuous efforts being made to discourage their study; as those texts were actively suppressed by the Jewish authorities in E"Y, no reliable copies exist and no one knows exactly what they originally said.

In my experience, I do not think it should for similar reasons to other biblical apocrypha,

M'gillath Qohalath (known as 'Ecclasiastes'), which was authored by King Sh'lomoh, is not one of those books that Jews consider to be apocryphal; it is the fourth of the five 'M'gilloth' (Scrolls)—i.e., Shir ha-Shirim (read on Pasah), Ruth (read on Shovuʿoth), ʾEichoh (or 'Qinoth', read [*twice] on Tishʿoh Bʾov), Qohalath (read on Sukkoth), ʾAstér (read [*twice] on Purim)—which comprise the second of the three minor sections of the eleven K'thuvim (between the first three 'ʾAmath' (Truth) books: Tahillim, Mish'lé, ʾIyyov; and the last three post-exilic books: Doniyyeʾl, ʿAzroʾ-N'hamyoh, Div'ré Hayyomim). Similar to the pure poetry books (Tahillim, Shir ha-Shirim, ʾEichoh (also called 'Qinoth')), Qohalath is one of the three 'wisdom' books (i.e., Mish'lé, ʾIyyov, Qohalath) which are all written in poetic style.

M'gillath Qohalath (Ecclasiastes) should not be confused with ban Siroʾ (called 'Ecclestiasticus' or 'ben Sirach' by the ğoyyim; note that this name is spelled בֶּן־סִירָא without any 'ch', i.e., ךְ), which is in fact one of the apocryphal books. It is, however, interesting to note that while Y'hoshuʿa ban Siroʾ is not included among the twenty-four books of the T'na"ch, there are eleven occasions in which the ğ'moroʾ does quote from it—Hagigoh, folio yudh-gimmal, column ʾalaf; Y'vomoth, folio sammach-gimmal, column béth; K'thubboth, folio quf-yudh, column béth; Bavoʾ Qammoʾ, folio ssaddi-béth, column béth; Bavoʾ Bath'roʾ, folio ssaddi-héth, column béth and folio quf-mem-wow, column ʾalaf; Sanhédhrin, folio quf, column béth; Niddoh, folio ṭéth-zayin, column béth. Still, it is not part of the Hebrew Canon.

Incidentally, Qohalath is one of the four books represented by the mnemonic יתק״ק (along with Y'shaʿyohu, Taré ʿAsar and Qinoth), in which the last-but-one verse is repeated after the final verse during ceremonial, public Scripture readings so as not to end on an unpleasant note:

ישעיהו Y'shaʿyohu,
תרי עשר Taré ʿAsar,
קינות Qinoth, and
קהלת Qohalath.

If this custom were not followed,

the reading of Y'shaʿyohu (66:24) would end with the words וְהָי֥וּ דֵרָא֖וֹן לְכָל־בָּשָֽׂר ('they will be a disgust to all people'),
the reading of Taré ʿAsar (Malʾochi 3:24) would end with the words פֶּן־אָב֕וֹא וְהִכֵּיתִ֥י אֶת־הָאָ֖רֶץ חֵֽרֶם ('in case I would come and attack the earth with héram [total destruction]'),
the reading of Qinoth (ʾEichoh 5:22) would end with the words קָצַ֥פְתָּ עָלֵ֖ינוּ עַד־מְאֹֽד ('You have been very angry with us'), and
the reading of Qohalath would end with the word רָֽע ('evil').

what is your take on Ecclesiastes (specifically 3):

Mish'lé, Shir ha-Shirim and Qohalath demonstrate Sh'lomoh's legendary wisdom.

Bible Gateway passage: Ecclesiastes 3 - King James Version

To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven: A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted; A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up; A time to weep, and a time to...

www.biblegateway.com

Ive meditated on it, and something just seems off about it seems like luck that it made it in

Ecclesiastes - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Spoiler

Ecclesiastes 3:17-19

17 I said in mine heart, God shall judge the righteous and the wicked: for there is a time there for every purpose and for every work.

18 I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.

19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.

Science eventually leads back to God

Actually, what you said isn't true. Genesis 1:1 KJV In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. God is not subject to time, space or matter as He is outside of it. If you choose to believe something came from nothing you would be a hypocrite. You believe the entire universe came...

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Isaiah 40:23-25

23 That bringeth the princes to nothing; he maketh the judges of the earth as vanity.

24 Yea, they shall not be planted; yea, they shall not be sown: yea, their stock shall not take root in the earth: and he shall also blow upon them, and they shall wither, and the whirlwind shall take them away as stubble.

25 To whom then will ye liken me, or shall I be equal? saith the Holy One.

We are living in a world of illusion

No young Breh. The real question is Jiqqa who ? :russ:

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Well, that is your loss and nobody else's.

 

[Marks]

Posted an interview with Hoffman awhile back but here's another longer one. Long as hell been warned:

 

[MMS]

Mish'lé, Shir ha-Shirim and Qohalath demonstrate Sh'lomoh's legendary wisdom.


Well, that is your loss and nobody else's.

is it really my loss? lets see how legendary it is under my lense:

Is Everything Vanity The Hebrew Meaning Of Hevel

The Hebrew Meaning of Hevel deepens reading of the Bible and gives emphasis on how to live a meaningful life.

www.patheos.com

The biblical book of Qohelet (known in Christian tradition as Ecclesiastes) begins with a bleak assertion. The traditional English translation reads, “Vanity of vanities, says the Preacher, vanity of vanities; all is vanity” (Eccl 1:2; cf. ASV, ESV, KJV, MEV, NRSV).

The Hebrew word translated “vanity” is הבל (hevel) and it appears five times in this single verse. In our modern parlance, “vanity” describes something that is worthless or futile; hence the choice of some translators to render הבל as “futility” (e.g., CSB, NASB, NJPS).

Similarly, the more recent Common English Bible translates הבלים הבל (havel havalim) - traditionally, “vanity of vanities” - as “perfectly pointless.”

Yet these translational choices do not quite grasp the fundamental meaning of the Hebrew. Rather than denoting meaninglessness or triviality, הבל means “vapor,” “mist,” or “whisp.”

For Qohelet, the problem is not that life has no meaning or is not worthwhile, but that it goes by like a vapor or mist. The Preacher bemoans the brevity of life on earth and the transience of existence, but this does not mean that life has no meaning.

On the contrary, the worship of God imbues one’s time on earth with purpose and value.

Lets just consider the names Hevel (Abel or Vanity) and Qohelet (Feminine Assembly)

Using my post about Sullam as a guide:

H(He) - The or Five Fingers
B (Bet) - House
L (Lamedh) - Shepherds crook or cattle prod

So Vanity also means the fingers of the house of the shepherd

While Qohelet

Qoph - The eye of a needle or Monkey
He - The or Five Fingers
Lamedh - Shepherds crook or cattle prod
Tav - End

So a Monkey's fingers shepherding the end also means a feminine assembly

Now lets look at the other place we see Hevel or Hebel - Qayin and Hebel and consider it with "Monkey Shepherding" in mind

Given this, the next verse presents the basic existential question with which the rest of the book is concerned: "What profit hath a man for all his toil, in which he toils under the sun?"

Qayin which conventionally means Acquired or Spear:

Qoph - The eye of a needle or Monkey
Yodh - Hand
Nun - Snake or Serpent

The Serpent’s Fate (Gen. 3:14-15)	Qayin’s Fate (Gen. 4:10-14)
Because you have made (asah) this…	What have you made (asah)?
Cursed are you…	Now you are cursed…
From all the cattle and every beast of the field…	From the ground, which opened its mouth to receive the blood of your brother by your hand.
Over your belly will you go, and dust you will eat all the days of your life.	If you work the ground, it will not continue to give its produce to you. A waverer and a wanderer shall you become in the Earth.
And I will put enmity between your seed and her seed… he will bruise your head, and you will bruise his heel…	It will come to pass, that anyone who comes upon me will kill me.
X	Rightly so. Whoever smites Qayin, seven times will I avenge him. And YHVH set upon Qayin a sign, lest anyone come upon him to kill him.

So a monkey whos hand is the serpent rose up against his brother, the fingers of the house of the shepherd (vanity or breath/mist)...

Also, a sign on a car with a Lamed on it means that the driver is a student of driving (the Lamed stands for lomed, learner).

Therefore a feminine troop of baboons shepherding "the end" apparently leads to death and thorny reciprocity

We are living in a world of illusion

It astonishes me that anyone can think that, with our reputation for logical and analytical thinking, we would oppose such ideas so vehemently if they were in any way supported by the Tanach. how could anyone believe what? the Jesus being sinless part? millions of Muslims believe it and they...

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Spoiler

Who are Reuels girls then....could they be defined as a "Feminine assembly"

We are living in a world of illusion

surely we are all sons of God :banderas: And yet, the Torah (D'vorim 14:1) specifically describes Yisroʾel as בָּנִים לַה׳ אֱלֹקֵיכֶם ('sons of Hashem your ʾAlohim'), something that it says of no other nation.

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[MMS]

@Koichos I know you read what I wrote earlier, I'm alittle dismayed that you dont see any parallels yet or express deeper interest in Sullam...


something I meditated on that is building off of the "female assembly" post and its link to Cain and Abel with respect to the history of the Old Testament. A lady in a group that I follow said that the last day to some would be like a sledgehammer. The first story that came to mind was of Sisera and the battle in Judges 5 also called "The Song of Deborah and Barak" or "The Song of Bee and Lightning"

Bible Gateway passage: Judges 5 - King James Version

Then sang Deborah and Barak the son of Abinoam on that day, saying, Praise ye the LORD for the avenging of Israel, when the people willingly offered themselves. Hear, O ye kings; give ear, O ye princes; I, even I, will sing unto the LORD; I will sing praise to the LORD God of Israel. LORD, when...

www.biblegateway.com

The story is of Sisera the General of Jabin who was a King of Canaan who oppressed the "Israelites". The meanings of these names are significant as it tells a deeper story like most things in the bible.

Sisera roughly translates to "Word of Ra" or "Servant of Ra" and Jabin (Discerner). It has been said that his father is "Shamgar" who was considered the Son of Anath (in both the Bible and Canaanite mythology)

Shamgar - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Now look here:

According to the Talmud, Jael engaged in sexual intercourse with Sisera seven times, but because she was attempting to exhaust him in order to kill him, her sin was for Heaven's sake and therefore praiseworthy

Also according to the Midrash,[17] Sisera had previously conquered every country against which he had fought. His voice was so strong that, when he called loudly, the most solid wall would shake and the wildest animal would fall dead. Deborah was the only one who could withstand his voice and not be stirred from her place. Sisera caught fish enough in his beard when bathing in the Kishon to provision his whole army, and thirty-one kings followed Sisera merely for the opportunity of drinking, or otherwise using, the waters of Israel.[13]

The passage Judges 5:24-27 is interesting given that the battle is depicted as being between Canaan and the Israelites yet the passage has an uncomfortable parallel to the Baal cycle.

Yam (god) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

In the Ugaritic Baal Cycle, El, chief of the Gods and father to the second-tier divinities, appoints Yam to fight Hadad-Baal. In the interpretatio graeca of Philo of Byblos, El corresponds to Cronus, Hadad-Baal to Zeus, Yam to Poseidon and Mot to Hades.

KTU 1.2 iii:

"From your throne of kingship you shall be driven,
from the seat of your dominion cast out!
On your head be Ayamari (Driver) O Yam,
Between your shoulders Yagarish (Chaser), O Judge Nahar
May Horon split open, O Yam,
may Horon smash your head,
´Athtart-Name-of-the-Lord thy skull!
After a great war in heaven involving many of the gods, Yam is soundly defeated:

And the weapon springs from the hand of Baal,
Like a raptor from between his fingers.
It strikes the skull of Prince Yam,
between the eyes of Judge Nahar.
Yahm collapses, he falls to the earth;
His joints quiver, and his spine shakes.
Thereupon Baal drags out Yam and would rend him to pieces;
he would make an end of Judge Nahar.
Hadad holds a great feast, but not long afterwards he battles Mot (death) and through his mouth he descends to the netherworld. Yet like Yam, Death too is defeated and in h. I AB iii the Lord arises from the dead:

For alive is Mighty Baal,
Revived is the Prince, Master of Earth."
'El calls to the Virgin Anat:
"Hearken, O maiden Anat!"

It would appear to me that the judgment of women is cyclical or rather has a cyclical nature (I cant help but notice the parallel between Jael which means Ibex and the ritual of sacrificing a goat/bull) "When noah awoke from his drunkenness and realized what his younger son had done to him..."

A servant of servants the real controvery in the bible exists between Genesis 1 and Genesis 2 why that is...I still dont comprehend

Quoting the Zuo zhuan, Hun-tun was Meng-shih's untalented son. He always gnaws his tail, going round and round. Everyone ridiculed him.

We are living in a world of illusion

Law states that perception is a concept to make sense of what you believe to be reality.We are not capable of making any distinction without it , we are not able to perceive anything without the mind "translating" energy into thought, therefore you never see the true nature of things but a...

www.thecoli.com

Spoiler

We are living in a world of illusion

@Koichos Resh - Wikipedia Sheqer or Seker? maybe both We are living in a world of illusion Is this another one of your ridiculous etymological connection claims? Boring! shéqer לבני ירושלים, לבני ספרד ולבני המזרח, לבני אשכנז, פולין ורוסיה sháqar לבני שרעב shágar לבני צנעא You score only...

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to me, the tree of the knowledge of good and evil has to do with gorem philosophy

 

[MMS]

@Marks @Koichos

One more off the last post is the name "Deborah" most places say it means Bee, but here which i used for the "chaotic set theory" post this site says it means "To formalize"

The amazing name Deborah: meaning and etymology

An indepth look at the meaning and etymology of the awesome name Deborah. We'll discuss the original Hebrew, plus the words and names Deborah is related to, plus the occurences of this name in the Bible.

www.abarim-publications.com

דבר​

The verb דבר (dabar) means to formalize: to deliberately establish and pronounce something's name or definition. This causes the thing to become "real" in the mind of whoever understands this word, name or definition, and this in turn explains why all of creation was spoken into being, and Man in turn "named" all the animals by their name and finally his Wife by hers (Genesis 2:19-23). This principle sits at the base of nominal reasoning and thus human awareness and ultimately Information Technology.

Noun דבר (dabar) means word. It also means "thing" since the naming of a thing causes the experienced reality of the thing. All thus created "things" together form the whole of experienceable reality, which in turn is called the Word of God.

Noun דבר (deber) describes any deadly pestilence, which is a "word" that breaks unstable compounds apart. In nature this occurs via the Weak Nuclear Force. The ability of unstable compounds to break apart sits at the heart of all progress and thus all reality.

The rare noun דבר (dober), refers to a pasture; probably a well-defined fenced-in field upon which sheep graze. Figuratively this word obviously refers to some specific Holy Book from which a community feeds (the books of the Bible originated as separate works, with their separate adherers). Noun דברה (dibra) means matter or issue, and the similar noun דבורה (deborah) describes the bee (this probably because bees make honey, and "milk and honey" denote essential sustenance). The noun דביר (debir) was a nickname for the Holy of Holies and means "place of the word".

The noun מדבר (midbar) literally means "place of wording" and is used once to mean mouth and 270 times to mean wilderness, and because a wilderness is a place without cultivation, any cultivation needs to spring up in a wilderness. And anybody serious about the quest for true insight needs to leave the culture (or religion) of his heritage behind and spend a stint in the uncharted wild. All major players in the Bible did so.

relevant the miners to me are like priests...

Spoiler

Judges 5:28-31

28 The mother of Sisera looked out at a window, and cried through the lattice, Why is his chariot so long in coming? why tarry the wheels of his chariots?

29 Her wise ladies answered her, yea, she returned answer to herself,

30 Have they not sped? have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two; to Sisera a prey of divers colours, a prey of divers colours of needlework, of divers colours of needlework on both sides, meet for the necks of them that take the spoil?

31 So let all thine enemies perish, O Lord: but let them that love him be as the sun when he goeth forth in his might. And the land had rest forty years.

remember when i mentioned "Serug"? What is "lattice" in hebrew?

Serug - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Ironically in Egyptian cosmogony the "servant of ra" is feminine power (Sekhmet)

We are living in a world of illusion

@Ghost Utmost @DoubleClutch @Marks @Dave24 @Koichos lit a candle today for the main participants in this thread I believe yall would like to see today's service's topic :banderas:: Sunday of the 7th Ecumenical Council - Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America

www.thecoli.com

In a myth about the end of Ra's rule on the earth, Ra sends the goddess Hathor, in the form of Sekhmet, to destroy mortals who conspired against him. In the myth, Sekhmet's blood-lust was not quenched at the end of battle that led to her destroying almost all of humanity. To stop her Ra poured out beer dyed with red ochre or hematite so that it resembled blood. Mistaking the beer for blood, she became so drunk that she gave up the slaughter and returned peacefully to Ra.[3] The same myth was also described in the prognosis texts of the Calendar of Lucky and Unlucky Days of papyrus Cairo 86637.[4]

In other versions of this story, Sekhmet grew angered at the deception and left Egypt, diminishing the power of the sun. This threatened the power and security of the world—thus, she was persuaded by the god Thoth to return and restore the sun to its full glory.[5]

how does "feminine power" get persuaded by Thoth/Djehuty (spoken word)

Why would GOD design a 10 year old to be able to get Pregnant??

Breh sadly they won’t listen 2 Peter 3:3 Most importantly, I want to remind you that in the last days scoffers will come, mocking the truth and following their own desires. 2 Timothy 4. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap...

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