Unpopular Opinion: Iron Man Match between Rock and HHH was much better than the Iron Man at Mania 12

[R=G]

The crowd response to the verdict proves that HHH was the biggest heel in wrestling during that time.

You missed them throwing trash at the end of WM 16

 

[R=G]

The motherfukking when Undertaker came back in that form...i couldn't believe it. Lol.

 

[BrehWyatt]

Angle/Lesnar was better than both.

I appreciate the WM 12 match more as an adult, but the Rock/HHH crowd was something else.

Quite frankly I think it comes down to the fact that the WM 12 match could be seen as boring because only one decision happened over 65 minutes of wrestling.

Meanwhile in HHH/Rock and Lesnar/Angle, you get that sense of drama and urgency because the fan favorite has to storm back from a seemingly insurmountable deficit (TWICE in the Rock's case), only to get screwed due to interference that had nothing to do with them (and was horribly botched) or because time ran out as the heel demonstrated more toughness than anticipated.

 

[StarClout]

All three are great (including Angle/Lesnar), but this is actually the first time I’ve ever heard the WM 12 get slandered in any way. I can always count on the Coli to come up with something that was never said and everybody agreeing

Right! It’s a lot of people’s favorite match or marked the beginning of their fandom and will fight you tooth and nail if you say something bad about it

It’s usually held as some holy grail by WWE itself and it’s machine which usually spreads to the fans (Don't get me wrong it was a good match, but like we’ve established, other iron man matches have eclipsed it and don’t get the recognition the WM12 one does)

 

[Jmare007]

All three are great (including Angle/Lesnar), but this is actually the first time I’ve ever heard the WM 12 get slandered in any way. I can always count on the Coli to come up with something that was never said and everybody agreeing

Eh, I've been reading about how the WM 12 one is overrated for a long ass time it's no a Coli thing at all.

 

[Riley Escobar]

That depends on what you like more. From a wrestling aspect Angle vs Lesnar wins easily, but from a sports entertainment aspect it's Rock vs HHH. What I loved most about Angle vs Lesnar was Lesnar sacrificing a W by hitting Angle with a chair at the beginning, so that way Kurt was compromised for the rest of the match.

I’d agree with this. Angle/Lesnar just edges it for me because of how tight it was and the fact the finish wasn’t horribly timed and botched

 

[TheBigBopper]

ADD WWE babies. Smh.

HBK-Hitman was better. If you grew up watching NWA wrestling you could appreciate the pace and slow build of that match.

shyt was a bunch of rest holds that only picked up during the last 10 minutes. It was thoroughly disappointing for wrestlers with the conditioning and endurance of Michaels and Hart. The ending was much better than Rock vs. HHH though, I'll give you that.

 

[TheBigBopper]

Storytelling 101

HBK vs Bret told a great story and how they both had different strategies to win the match. If you watched the build to the match Bret was talking about how HBK and his high-flying style would cause him to make a mistake and he would get the first fall early and then use rest holds to keep him down the rest of the match. But HBK instead counters this by changing his style and starting the first half of the match doing only rest holds so this would not happen. Then by doing so many rest holds he would tire Bret down and catch him with the Superkick which he tried doing but he missed. This pissed Bret off and for the second half of the match Bret get's more aggressive. At the end of the match HBK gets desperate seeing the clock ticking away so he starts getting careless this is where Bret catches him in the sharpshooter but it's to late and the clock runs out. Then Bret thinks he won but they force him to comeback for Overtime and Bret was already frustrated by the match not going his way so now he's really upset and he loses focus, and that is how HBK catches him with the Superkick to win the match. So HBK's strategy worked causing Bret to get frustrated and lose focus.


It's really classic great storytelling but if you go back and watch the match without any context of any of this then I can see how it would be boring to some people.


Plus the ending of the Judgement Day Iron man match is completely botched the timing of the clock and the ending was way off.


It's hard to compare them both really one is like an old school classic slow burn movie and the other is a fast and the furious type movie with non-stop action

All of this just sounds like a rationalization for them to use a bunch of rest holds. The storytelling in Rock and HHH's match was superior with the central question being if Rock could hang with Triple H's endurance and technical skill, plus the drama heightened when Rock was behind Triple H by three falls with only 20 minutes left on the clock. The ending did kind of damper the match though, I'll give you that.

 

[TheBigBopper]

That depends on what you like more. From a wrestling aspect Angle vs Lesnar wins easily, but from a sports entertainment aspect it's Rock vs HHH. What I loved most about Angle vs Lesnar was Lesnar sacrificing a W by hitting Angle with a chair at the beginning, so that way Kurt was compromised for the rest of the match.

They stole that from Rock vs. HHH. Trips did that to The Rock in the middle of the match which led to Rock trailing HHH in falls until the last quarter of the hour.

 

[Piff Huxtable]

Storytelling 101

HBK vs Bret told a great story and how they both had different strategies to win the match. If you watched the build to the match Bret was talking about how HBK and his high-flying style would cause him to make a mistake and he would get the first fall early and then use rest holds to keep him down the rest of the match. But HBK instead counters this by changing his style and starting the first half of the match doing only rest holds so this would not happen. Then by doing so many rest holds he would tire Bret down and catch him with the Superkick which he tried doing but he missed. This pissed Bret off and for the second half of the match Bret get's more aggressive. At the end of the match HBK gets desperate seeing the clock ticking away so he starts getting careless this is where Bret catches him in the sharpshooter but it's to late and the clock runs out. Then Bret thinks he won but they force him to comeback for Overtime and Bret was already frustrated by the match not going his way so now he's really upset and he loses focus, and that is how HBK catches him with the Superkick to win the match. So HBK's strategy worked causing Bret to get frustrated and lose focus.


It's really classic great storytelling but if you go back and watch the match without any context of any of this then I can see how it would be boring to some people.


Plus the ending of the Judgement Day Iron man match is completely botched the timing of the clock and the ending was way off.


It's hard to compare them both really one is like an old school classic slow burn movie and the other is a fast and the furious type movie with non-stop action

all this mark babble and Rock/HHH was still better

 

[Sghost597]

Man... If that Hart vs. Owen match ever come to light. I bet it be amaxing.

Angle and HBK shyts all over the hour long matches

 

[TheBigBopper]

Right! It’s a lot of people’s favorite match or marked the beginning of their fandom and will fight you tooth and nail if you say something bad about it

It’s usually held as some holy grail by WWE itself and it’s machine which usually spreads to the fans (Don't get me wrong it was a good match, but like we’ve established, other iron man matches have eclipsed it and don’t get the recognition the WM12 one does)

I'd seriously take Bayley and Sasha's Iron Woman Match over WM12. Only the last 10 minutes in the latter is entertaining.

 

[FunkDoc1112]

That's not an unpopular opinion at all. The WM12 match has fallen out of favor the last decade. The first 30 minutes was aimless headlocks and armdrags.

 

[Dave24]

Storytelling 101

HBK vs Bret told a great story and how they both had different strategies to win the match. If you watched the build to the match Bret was talking about how HBK and his high-flying style would cause him to make a mistake and he would get the first fall early and then use rest holds to keep him down the rest of the match. But HBK instead counters this by changing his style and starting the first half of the match doing only rest holds so this would not happen. Then by doing so many rest holds he would tire Bret down and catch him with the Superkick which he tried doing but he missed. This pissed Bret off and for the second half of the match Bret get's more aggressive. At the end of the match HBK gets desperate seeing the clock ticking away so he starts getting careless this is where Bret catches him in the sharpshooter but it's to late and the clock runs out. Then Bret thinks he won but they force him to comeback for Overtime and Bret was already frustrated by the match not going his way so now he's really upset and he loses focus, and that is how HBK catches him with the Superkick to win the match. So HBK's strategy worked causing Bret to get frustrated and lose focus.


It's really classic great storytelling but if you go back and watch the match without any context of any of this then I can see how it would be boring to some people.


Plus the ending of the Judgement Day Iron man match is completely botched the timing of the clock and the ending was way off.


It's hard to compare them both really one is like an old school classic slow burn movie and the other is a fast and the furious type movie with non-stop action

This, good post!

 

[RobertoDuran]

No they weren’t. The pace of that match was typical of a NWA championship match. NWA matches were not faster paced than that. They had a lot of rest holds and slow building action. That Ironman match was meant to have that traditional technical wrestling feel to it. Unfortunately WWF fans think that’s boring.

What Flair broadway have you watched? Even Harley Race, who I feel is kinda overrated, had fun 60 minute matches even with Jerry Lawler, who only knows how to punch and do a pile driver. There is definitely more workrate in those old matches than in that Ironman match. Even Punk/Joe broadways are better because the headlock is built into the story of the matches.

I think that Ironman matches can be good. 60 minute matches can be really bad, especially when there is one fall. If you do a 60 minute 2/3 falls match, it can work. But you defintely need falls so you have the "can the face overcome the odds" storyline (even though both guys are faces in this match but Shawn was definitely the "superface" in that match). You could've have Bret up 2-1, and had Shawn push it to the end to tie it up and force OT. Bret could've still had his "heel moment" after the match. Instead you get a whole bunch of bad matwork (I mean Shawn is just not a good mat worker and can't keep up with Bret and Bret is overrated at mat working anyway) that ends up meaning nothing, especially since Shawn blows all of Bret's offense so he can get his shyt in. I'm not looking for World of Sport or French catch in the WWF, but at least if you're doing extended matwork segments, make it fukking interesting! The falls would've helped make that match less sloppy since those guys could've gotten a breather. They didn't do that much of teasing of signature moves throughout either.

Maybe HHH/Rock had too many falls, but at least that match flows way better than Bret/Shawn and is way more interesting and has a real face/heel dynamic. The booking of that match was much better and the work was interesting enough that it still holds up way better.