U.S. Drone Strike Said to Have Killed Ayman al-Zawahri, Top Qaeda Leader

wire28

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Finally made it through the thread and they never really answered y’all question about what should happen to international murderers of thousands of innocents :russ: @Pressure

The best answer was “I already answered that”. Which is hilarious coming from a guy who otherwise is willing to type out 12 paragraphs to things not directed towards him. :dead: The other usual suspects just went completely ghost though so I atleast give him credit for that.
 

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I notice you don't mention Iran at all. Why's that?

Also try to look at them all as separate independent entities that have professional links through networking. At end of the day it’s an industry. Al-zawahiri publicly denounced Iran. Iran doesn’t particularly like Sunni’s but they have and will work with them. They all view each other as a means to an end.
 
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You're a status quo warrior who pushes things because they're mainstream without ever having studied the issues or learned the ramifications for yourself.
I’ve noticed the same thing too.
 

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Finally made it through the thread and they never really answered y’all question about what should happen to international murderers of thousands of innocents :russ: @Pressure

The best answer was “I already answered that”. Which is hilarious coming from a guy who otherwise is willing to type out 12 paragraphs. :dead:


Because I literally did type out the 12 paragraphs once already and he ignored it. :what:




There's more serious content in that comment alone than you, James, and 88 have offered in the entire thread, and not a single one of you replied, yet I'm the one being demanded to replicate it?
 

wire28

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Because I literally did type out the 12 paragraphs once already and he ignored it. :what:




There's more serious content in that comment alone than you, James, and 88 have offered in the entire thread, and not a single one of you replied, yet I'm the one being demanded to replicate it?
Somehow in that jumble of word salad you still failed to say what specifically should happen to a murderer of thousands of innocents. The overarching themes were cool though. So I think that’s why “I already answered that” wasn’t sufficient.
 

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Because I literally did type out the 12 paragraphs once already and he ignored it. :what:




There's more serious content in that comment alone than you, James, and 88 have offered in the entire thread, and not a single one of you replied, yet I'm the one being demanded to replicate it?
Good job creating a strawman and then beating him to death. You must have picked up that move from Pressure. :mjlol:

I have never once argued for isolationism or just letting shyt happen. Not once. But the fact that proponents of "ultraviolence as the only solution" continuously turn to that caricature of anyone who disagrees with them demonstrates to me how little you've actually engaged with these issues.

If you've been shown that your technique for "dealing" with a problem is having a horrific impact on people and has very often led to some really shytty results, then you don't give up on dealing with the problem, you start looking for another way.

As I pointed out already, advocates for ultraviolence continuously fall back on tunnel-vision compartmentalization when discussing their policies. You jumped back to "But we needed to do this to Isis!" while completely ignoring the entire history of doing such things had led to Isis in the first place. It's like punching a guy in the face, shooting him when he pulls a knife, and then arguing that the knife left you with no options...ignoring that his friend is going to pull his own gun next and you'll shoot him too, which causes that friend's son to grow up to try to get revenge by killing your friend, and so on all because you were walking around punching people. That doesn't at any point excuse the other fukkheads who are pulling knives and guns because they're wrong too, but trying to ground the entire dispute in one moment in the middle of the conflict while ignoring everything that led up to it and all the downstream consequences that will result from it is.......exactly how we got here in the first place.

The United States of America are a massive driver in promoting a continuous cycle of violence that leads to immense suffering for millions of people who themselves had little to no personal agency in that violence coming about. Russia has also been a major driver in promoting said violence. Saudi Arabia and other radical Islamicists have also been major drivers in that cycle. Do you expect the Russians or the Islamicists to be the ones to intervene and break the cycle any time soon? If not, then how the fukk do you envision a future of anything other than forever war? We go by your philosophy and the "good actors" will have zero say in choosing the future of the world, because so long as the "bad guys" want war to continue forever, you'll happily oblige.


What are the alternatives? Just as an example, at one point in the conflict one group suggested the following as a start:
  • Stop U.S. bombing in Iraq to prevent bloodshed, instability and the accumulation of grievances that contribute to the global justification for the Islamic State’s existence among its supporters.
  • Provide robust humanitarian assistance to those who are fleeing the violence.
  • Engage with the UN, all Iraqi political and religious leaders, and others in the international community on diplomatic efforts for a lasting political solution for Iraq. Ensure a significantly more inclusive Iraqi government along with substantive programs of social reconciliation to interrupt the flow and perhaps peel-back some of the persons joining the Islamic State.
  • Work for a political settlement to the crisis in Syria. The conflicts in Iraq and Syria are intricately connected and should be addressed holistically. Return to the Geneva peace process for a negotiated settlement to the civil war in Syria and expand the agenda to include regional peace and stability. Ensure Iran’s full participation in the process.
  • Support community-based nonviolent resistance strategies to transform the conflict and meet the deeper need and grievances of all parties. For example, experts have suggested strategies such as parallel institutions, dispersed disruptions, and economic non-cooperation.
  • Strengthen financial sanctions against armed actors in the region. For example, disrupting the Islamic State’s $3 million/day oil revenue from the underground market would go a long way toward blunting violence.
  • Bring in and significantly invest in professionally trained unarmed civilian protection organizations to assist and offer some buffer for displaced persons and refugees, both for this conflict in collaboration with Iraqi’s and for future conflicts.
  • Call for and uphold an arms embargo on all parties to the conflict. U.S. arms and military assistance to the government forces and ethnic militias in Iraq, in addition to arming Syrian rebel groups, have only fueled the carnage, in part due to weapons intended for one group being taken and used by others. All armed parties have been accused of committing gross violations of human rights. Along with Russia, work with key regional players such as Saudi Arabia, Qatar, and Kuwait to take independent initiatives and meaningful steps towards an arms embargo on all parties in the conflict.
  • Support Iraqi civil society efforts to build peace, reconciliation, and accountability at the community level. Deep sectarian and ethnic divisions have long been exacerbated by various factors, including the U.S. military intervention in 2003. Sustainable peace will require peacebuilding and reconciliation efforts from the ground up.

A few of those strategies were attempted in pathetic, insufficient manner, others were sabotaged by the obvious hypocrisy of the USA in pushing for actions that it was unwilling to follow itself and others were never even seriously tried. If we had spent the last 20 years putting the effort and funding into those things that we put into the Iraq War, Isis would never have formed in the first place and I have little doubt the region would be better off today than it is now. But we NEVER devote the national resources to peace that we're willing to devote to war.

Obviously the full scope of non-military actions necessary to resolve global conflicts and protect the victims of violence are complex and can't be covered fully in a message board post just like the actual US strategy for violently dealing with Isis is never spelled out in any detail here. But if you are interested in introductions to the issues, you can start with Rethinking Violence: States and Non-State Actors in Conflict and Why Civil Resistance Works: The Strategic Logic of Nonviolent Conflict. Of course due to the limited attention given to the field it still remains underdeveloped compared to violent options. If the USA changed directions and devoted 21 entire universities to studying the promotion of peace just like it currently devotes 21 universities to studying and training people for war, and if it budgeted over $800 billion every year to funding pro-peace efforts just like it currently devotes over $800 billion every year to funding the military-industrial complex, I have no doubt both knowledge and impact of said work would rapidly overtake our horrifically underachieving war machine, which somehow still fails to produce the desired results in conflict after conflict even though it's had 100s of years of a head start in figuring this shyt out.



Excuse me? :dahell:

None of this is an answer. Its a policy platform of utopianism and none of it is about Afghanistan which is completely different from Iraq from infrastructure to composition to geography to interests.

None of this addresses security concerns.
 

Pressure

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We didn't
Excuse me? :dahell:

None of this is an answer. Its a policy platform of utopianism and none of it is about Afghanistan which is completely different from Iraq from infrastructure to composition to geography to interests.

None of this addresses security concerns.
The answer was do nothing. :pachaha:

He already admitted he hadn't read through the thread at the point that he attempted to change the discourse

I'm not even sure he was aware we didn't use explosives until someone else let him know.
 

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Finally made it through the thread and they never really answered y’all question about what should happen to international murderers of thousands of innocents :russ: @Pressure

The best answer was “I already answered that”. Which is hilarious coming from a guy who otherwise is willing to type out 12 paragraphs to things not directed towards him. :dead: The other usual suspects just went completely ghost though so I atleast give him credit for that.
I mean its very simple.

And dude is talking about after school programs and sanctions (which ironically he is at odds with when it comes to Ukraine) and other years-long systemic shyt outside handling ole dude RIGHT NOW.

Again, the R9X Hellfire is literally an improvement that reduces collateral damage by several orders of magnitude.

@Rhakim if you knew where Bin Laden was staying, would you tell the US military?

I'm not convinced any of these pacifists really believe this shyt.

And don't get me wrong, I'm definitely against LYING to initiate global assaults or engaging in fraud to justify military action. But when its go time...its go time...
 

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It’s been a long time coming. No he wasn’t really so much of a direct leader anymore. Killing him is more of a state celebration and a flex saying “we will get you if we find you”. There are a lot of older Iraqi’s, Tanzanian’s, Kenyan’s, south Sudanese, Pakistani’s, and Egyptians glad that he’s gone. There are a lot of service members glad that he’s gone. It is what it is.

Both the political body of the US, and the organizations he shared a bond with, said that “it’s up there and it’s stuck there”, long ago.

He’s not the first and he probably won’t be the last, this year. Due to all the international dust kicking, we diplomatically have our nuts out right now. There won’t be many passes. We’ll only get more aggressive if the Brittney Griner prisoner swap goes through. There’s a few different places around the equator that are stops on the revenge tour. This is about symbolism. There’s no use in you guys arguing about this and insulting each other.
:manny:
Saif al-Adel come claim your free tickets to Disneyland :mjgrin:
 

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We didn't

The answer was do nothing. :pachaha:

You are lying, again. It's all you can do.



He already admitted he hadn't read through the thread at the point that he attempted to change the discourse

Oh look, lying again. I didn't attempt to "change the discourse", how could I have been trying to change what I hadn't even read? I read an interesting article and this was clearly the most relevant thread to post it in. When I posted that article here in the evening on Tuesday the thread was dead, there hadn't been a single comment made in it all day, so what discourse was I trying to "change"?




I'm not even sure he was aware we didn't use explosives until someone else let him know.

Oh look, let's just add a random ad hominem to the mix based off of shyt you don't even know. I mean the immediate previous comment before my first comment was about the missile being made of knives, so your lies are already self-contradictory - how can I have been trying to change the discourse about bombing him with knives, having supposedly not even known that he was bombed with blades?
 

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Somehow in that jumble of word salad you still failed to say what specifically should happen to a murderer of thousands of innocents. The overarching themes were cool though. So I think that’s why “I already answered that” wasn’t sufficient.

I "specifically" think he should be imprisoned for the rest of his life. But let's back up and take the wider view to understand how to get there.


1) Look at what our status quo decisions actually achieved. By following our invade, bomb, and drone philosophy, we finally got this guy after 21 years. He was free to do his shyt for 21 fukking years first under our policy. Osama bin Laden was free for 10 years before we got him. Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, on the other hand, was captured just 18 months after 9/11 with the help of Pakistan's ISI, not by a drone or missile strike, and is still in US custody. I'm not sure who else is important enough to consider - despite how important al-Zawahri supposedly is to posters here, it doesn't appear that a single person had typed his name out in the 10 years the site existed before this week (though I did find his name buried in 4 copy-paste articles, none of the commentary by posters on those articles seems to refer to him).

2) Meanwhile, Al-Queda appeared to become more popular, not less, after we started attacking it. For close to a decade after 2001, terrorist attacks by Al-Queda actually GREW rather than being surpressed. Al-Queda cells and affiliates in Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Yemen, Libya, Somalia, and several other nations grew in power and caused more destruction than before. Globally terrorist attacks and deaths from terrorist attacks multipled substantially and are still several times higher than they were in 1997-2003. If anything our actions have inspired far more people to become terrorists, rather than fewer.

deaths-from-terrorist-attacks.svg



3) Then, of course, is the fact that our War in Afghanistan killed some 200,000 people, including at least 50,000 civlians, 70,000 Afghan security forces, 3,500 coalition forces, and 4,000 contractors. We may have killed around 2,000 al-queda members and 50,000 Taliban soldiers. In other words, MOST of the people who died due to our war were on our own side or were innocent civilians. We also had another 40,000 injured coalition forces and contractors, likely untold hundreds of thousands of injured Afghans. Not to mention all the other daily terror and psychological damage we've already spoken of. And this doesn't even count the thousands in Pakistan or the million or so in Iraq.



Why did I lay all that out? Because before any Status Quo Warrior starts bytching about how my solution isn't going to be fast enough or perfect enough, we need to compare it to the actual status quo. The chosen solution worked VERY poorly. It led to hundreds of thousands of deaths, millions of destroyed lives, a more influential Al-Queda, far more terrorists and far more sympathy with terrorism, all to take 10-20 years to finally get a couple guys we were after. So the bar they've set for any other solution to surpass is really, really fukking low. I mean unless my solution somehow triggers WW3 or some shyt it's difficult to see how it could possibly be worse.
 

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So what do I think could have been done instead? We should have worked with the Taliban, the Organization of Islamic States, and other relevant parties to secure the capture and handing over of bin Laden. For those who are too young, it needs to be remembered that this was on the fukking table but Bush rejected it immediately because all he really wanted to do was go to war.


Bush won't bargain for bin Laden (Baltimore Sun)


Bush won't bargain for bin Laden​


WASHINGTON - President Bush sternly rejected a Taliban offer to discuss handing over Osama bin Laden to a third country as U.S. jets began a second week of bombing yesterday.

"They must have not heard. There's no negotiations," the president said.

Returning to the White House after a weekend at the Camp David retreat, Bush reiterated four conditions the Taliban must meet before bombing will be stopped.

"All they got to do is turn him [bin Laden] over, and his colleagues and the thugs he hides, as well as destroy his camps and [release] the innocent people being held hostage in Afghanistan," Bush said.

The latter was an apparent reference to eight foreign aid workers imprisoned in Afghanistan. The administration had avoided calling them "hostages." In his speech to a joint session of Congress on Sept. 20, Bush said they had been "unjustly imprisoned." A White House spokeswoman said she believed it was the first time that Bush had publicly used the word "hostage."

Bush rejected any negotiations as a Taliban leader suggested the Afghan government would be willing to discuss surrendering bin Laden to a third country if the United States provided evidence of his guilt and stopped bombing.

"There's no need to discuss innocence or guilt," Bush said. "We know he's guilty."




U.S. Rejects New Taliban Offer​


Oct. 14, 2001 -- The United States today rejected yet another offer by Afghanistan's ruling Taliban to turn over Osama bin Laden for trial in a third country if the U.S. presents evidence against bin Laden and stops air attacks.

President Bush reiterated the position the U.S. has held since fingering bin Laden and his al Queda organization as masterminding the for the Sept. 11 attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon.

"There's no need to discuss it," Bush said. "We know he's guilty. Just turn him over. … There's nothing to negotiate about. They're harboring a terrorist and they need to turn him over."

The U.S. military, at times joined by British forces, has been conducting air strikes on targets in Afghanistan for over a week as part of the administration's efforts to capture bin Laden and his associates.

"There's no discussions. I've told them what they need to do," Bush said today, hammering away at the same theme he has often repeated over the last month. "When I said no negotiations, I meant no negotiations."





Taliban ‘offered bin Laden trial before 9/11’​

Former minister says group was prepared to see bin Laden put on trial prior to 9/11, but US was not interested.

The Taliban government in Afghanistan offered to present Osama bin Laden for a trial long before the attacks of September 11, 2001, but the US government showed no interest, according to a senior aide to the Taliban leader, Mullah Omar.


Wakil Ahmad Muttawakil, Taliban’s last foreign minister, told Al Jazeera in an exclusive interview that his government had made several proposals to the United States to present the al-Qaeda leader, considered the mastermind of the 2001 attacks, for trial for his involvement in plots targeting US facilities during the 1990s.

“Even before the [9/11] attacks, our Islamic Emirate had tried through various proposals to resolve the Osama issue. One such proposal was to set up a three-nation court, or something under the supervision of the Organisation of the Islamic Conference [OIC],” Muttawakil said.

“But the US showed no interest in it. They kept demanding we hand him over, but we had no relations with the US, no agreement of any sort. They did not recognise our government.”

The US did not recognise the Taliban government and had no direct diplomatic relations with the group which controlled most of Afghanistan between 1996 and 2001.

But proposals by the Taliban were relayed to the US through indirect channels such as the US embassy in Pakistan or the informal Taliban office for the UN in New York, Muttawakil said.


Robert Grenier, the CIA station chief in Pakistan at the time of 9/11, confirmed that such proposals had been made to US officials.

Grenier said the US considered the offers to bring in Bin Laden to trial a “ploy”.

“Another idea was that [bin Laden] would be brought to trial before a group of Ulema [religious scholars] in Afghanistan.

“No one in the US government took these [offers] seriously because they did not trust the Taliban and their ability to conduct a proper trial.”

Subsequent to the 1998 US embassy bombings in Kenya and Tanzania, as US pressure grew, the Taliban insisted on a procedure under the supervision of OIC because it considered it a “neutral international organisation”.
 
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Want to claim these offers were insincere? Well there is heavy documentation that many within the Taliban didn't actually want Al-Queda in their country, didn't want Al-Queda to conduct terror attacks, and were turning against the group.....but support for that motive kept getting thrown back because the USA kept bombing shyt.


Heavy Costs for Limited Benefits for the Taliban

The Taliban has incurred tremendous costs for its alliance with al-Qaeda over more than two decades. The relationship contributed to the Taliban’s international isolation while it was in power, including a rupture with Saudi Arabia, one of only three states to recognize the Taliban government. Al-Qaeda’s presence was a source of internal strife within the Taliban, with some urging Mullah Omar to oust the group. Some in the Taliban were particularly frustrated by Bin Laden’s declarations of war and al-Qaeda’s acts of terrorism against the United States in the years prior to 2001. But Washington’s responses actually increased the Taliban’s support for al-Qaeda.




What if the US Didn’t Go to War in Afghanistan after 9/11?​

Rather than launching a war that proved to be disastrous, an alternative reaction to 9/11 might have been to expand police and intelligence operations and to work with sympathetic allies to pressure the Taliban, which had little or nothing to do with 9/11, to dismember al‐Qaida and to turn over its top members.

Several conditions were favorable to such an approach.

First, Taliban rule in Afghanistan was quite unpopular and far from secure. After its takeover in 1996, it had afforded peace and a degree of coherent government to Afghanistan after a horrific civil war. However, by 2001 its popularity had declined due to its chaotic and sometimes brutal rule — and perhaps due to its successful effort to crush the lucrative opium trade in the year previous. The depth of the unpopularity is suggested perhaps by the fact that its poorly trained forces, which a few years earlier had united the country by conquering or bribing the warlord bands that had been tearing the country apart, now mostly disintegrated. Some foreign fighters did resist the American invasion, but few Afghans joined them except under duress. The rather ironic parallels with the precipitous collapse in 2021 of the corrupt and incompetent U.S.-sponsored Afghan regime are striking.

Second, the relationship between the Taliban and al‐Qaida was often very uncomfortable. In 1996, Osama bin Laden, an exile from Saudi Arabia, showed up with his entourage. Although quite willing to extend hospitality to its well‐heeled visitor, the Taliban insisted on guarantees that he refrain from issuing incendiary messages or even from holding press conferences as well as from engaging in terrorist activities.

Bin Laden repeatedly agreed but frequently broke his pledge. At times, the Taliban had their troublesome “guest” under house arrest, and veteran correspondent Arnaud de Borchgrave was stunned by the hostility expressed for bin Laden when he interviewed top Taliban leaders in mid‐2001. As analyst Vadim Brown puts it , relations were “deeply contentious, and threatened by mutual distrust and divergent ambitions.”

Third, the Taliban did not generate much support abroad due to its extreme Islamist fundamentalism. Specialist Fawaz Gerges points out that when Soviet troops invaded Afghanistan in 1979, there were calls for jihad from almost everywhere in Arab and Muslim lands, and tens of thousands of Muslim men flooded to the country to fight in the resistance.

In stark contrast, when the Americans invaded in 2001 bent on toppling an Islamic regime, there was a “deafening silence” from these same corners and mosques, and only a trickle of jihadis went to fight. This was in part a counterproductive consequence of the 9/11 attack. The terrorists’ hope was that the dramatic confrontation with the United States would galvanize and unify, but instead other jihadists publicly blamed al‑Qaida for their post‑9/11 problems and held the attacks to be shortsighted and hugely miscalculated.

And fourth, almost all countries in the world were eager to cooperate with the United States after the 9/11 shock, and this included two of the very few that had supported the Taliban previously: Pakistan and Saudi Arabia. Moreover, the Saudis had tried for years to get bin Laden, a Saudi renegade, extradited. They appear to have been close in 1998, but the deal fell through after the Americans bombed Afghanistan in response to al‐Qaida attacks on two of its embassies in Africa. However, the Saudis kept up the effort, and two weeks before 9/11 the chief Saudi negotiator had been sacked by the Crown prince because he had failed thus far to get bin Laden.

Given these conditions, the insecure regime in Afghanistan might have been susceptible to international pressure, perhaps even to the point of turning Osama bin Laden and his top associates over to international justice, which is more than the invasion accomplished.

If necessary, selective bombing and commando raids might have been used, rather that outright invasion, to emphasize the message. But, as international law specialist Mary Ellen O’Connell pointed out at the time, there have long been legal procedures to deal with lawless substate entities like pirates and slave dealers, and these could readily be applied to the authors of 9/11. Rather than give themselves up, al‐Qaida might have fled Afghanistan, but that happened anyway after the U.S.-led invasion.

The Taliban said it wanted proof that 9/11 was an al‐Qaeda operation, but that could have been gathered perhaps to its satisfaction. It also suggested that bin Laden might be handed over to an organization of 56 Muslim states which would include, of course, many close to the United States. However, as the bombing began, the Taliban reportedly offered to give bin Laden up to any country other than the United States without seeing evidence of guilt.

But none of that was not good enough for President George W. Bush, who eschewed any “negotiations” whatever and demanded that bin Laden and friends be handed over directly to the United States.

The Bush administration’s reaction to the 9/11 attacks, as Robert Kagan has recently recalled, was a mixture of panic, confusion, fear, and guilt. Moreover, “Bush personally wanted vengeance,” and he cites an on‐the‐record reflection by Secretary of State Colin Powell as published in early 2002: Bush “wanted to kill somebody.”

The American public was similarly moved, so there was perhaps some political risk in adopting a less militarized approach. However, the public was content with the fact that the invasion did not destroy al‐Qaida, but instead sent it into flight and disarray. If “negotiations” had had a similar result — and certainly if they had included in addition the capture of bin Laden — the effort would likely be deemed a success. Of course, in the alternative approach the Taliban would have remained in power in Afghanistan. However, this concern could likely have been alleviated by pointing out, correctly, that the Taliban, while reprehensible in some respects, was not really complicit in the 9/11 attacks.

America’s longest war might have been avoided, then, if Bush had shown some flexibility on the “negotiation” issue, but that was not in the cards. Instead, the Taliban had to win the country back after years of warfare in which trillions of dollars were expended and well over a hundred thousand people killed. And after 20 years, the United States seems now to be ready to reconcile itself to this result.



In fact, within months the Taliban tried to work out a deal to give their own government up....but the USA refused because we really preferred total war over negotiated peace:



Did the War in Afghanistan Have to Happen?​


It was in the waning days of November 2001 that Taliban leaders began to reach out to Hamid Karzai, who would soon become the interim president of Afghanistan: They wanted to make a deal.

“The Taliban were completely defeated, they had no demands, except amnesty,” recalled Barnett Rubin, who worked with the United Nations’ political team in Afghanistan at the time.

Messengers shuttled back and forth between Mr. Karzai and the headquarters of the Taliban leader, Mullah Muhammad Omar, in Kandahar. Mr. Karzai envisioned a Taliban surrender that would keep the militants from playing any significant role in the country’s future.

But Washington, confident that the Taliban would be wiped out forever, was in no mood for a deal.

“The United States is not inclined to negotiate surrenders,” Secretary of Defense Donald H. Rumsfeld said in a news conference at the time, adding that the Americans had no interest in leaving Mullah Omar to live out his days anywhere in Afghanistan. The United States wanted him captured or dead.

“One mistake was that we turned down the Taliban’s attempt to negotiate,” Carter Malkasian, a former senior adviser to Gen. Joseph Dunford, who was chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff during parts of the Obama and Trump administrations, said of the American decision not to discuss a Taliban surrender nearly 20 years ago.

“We were hugely overconfident in 2001, and we thought the Taliban had gone away and weren’t going to come back,” he said. “We also wanted revenge, and so we made a lot of mistakes that we shouldn’t have made.”
While it is not clear that a deal with the Taliban in 2001 would have been possible — or that the Taliban would have kept their word — some former diplomats say that by repeatedly shutting the door to talks, the United States may have closed off its best chance of avoiding a prolonged and extremely costly war.



Warmongers can continue insisting that no other option was possible, that this was all lies. But the evidence is clear that there was internal Taliban strife regarding bin Laden's precence in Afghanistan and many had already wanted to give him up even before 9/11. They did NOT want bin Laden to do something like 9/11 and many in the Taliban, regressive as they are, felt an attack like that was against Islam. They were barely holding on to power as it was, their allies wanted them to give up bin Laden as well, and they had every reason to negotiate that. And remember that Pakistan directly helped us get Khalid Sheikh Mohammed into custody. and that the Taliban's support heavily relied on Pakistan.

The chance to choose a different way was there. And we rejected it because we WANTED war. Not because we thought war was the most likely means to get bin Laden, but because it was THE WAY we wanted to get bin Laden. We didn't want a negotiated surrended, we didn't want to accept terms, we wanted as many of them dead as possible on our own terms.


Maybe it would have failed. Who knows. But even if it failed, would it have failed as completely and disastrously as war and missiles and drones failed?

In a worst case scenario, it fails completely and he stays free. Maybe we try again and he stays free. Maybe we try again and he stays free. We don't stop trying, and eventually leaders may have risen or situations changed that allow it to happen. Perhaps it would have taken a decade, perhaps longer. But that's still better than the status quo - we'd almost certainly have fewer war dead, fewer terrorists, fewer terrorist attack dead, and less sympathy for terrorism in the Muslim world than we have today. A couple terrorists would have gotten away for a long time but we'd have a BETTER world as a result. I mean, fukk, Henry Kissinger is ninety-nine fukking years old and still lives in freedom and he killed 100x as many civilians as Al-Queda ever did. You can't get them all.
 
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wire28

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I "specifically" think he should be imprisoned for the rest of his life. But let's back up and take the wider view to understand how to get there.
The country in which he resides imprisoning him would be a good start to reaching that end but it didn’t look like they were too eager to do so. The rest of the paragraphs were cool though. Thanks for answering atleast.
 

mastermind

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So what do I think could have been done instead? We should have worked with the Taliban, the Organization of Islamic States, and other relevant parties to secure the capture and handing over of bin Laden. For those who are too young, it needs to be remembered that this was on the fukking table but Bush rejected it immediately because all he really wanted to do was go to war.


Bush won't bargain for bin Laden (Baltimore Sun)













It’s insane when you think about this. We could have gotten all of these peoples and didn’t because our elected leaders only saw red.

We could have gone in and arrested these people and actually bring then to justice but decided killing was better.
 
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