as an aside, I don't think this is the case. There have been and are many types of slavery in the world, the transatlantic slave trade and southern plantation slavery was extra cruel in some respects starting from the very shipping to the nature of fieldwork, the fact that all the kids were to be slaves as well, and the stark racial aspect that meant free blacks suffered too
This week in HL Islam
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as an aside, I don't think this is the case. There have been and are many types of slavery in the world, the transatlantic slave trade and southern plantation slavery was extra cruel in some respects starting from the very shipping to the nature of fieldwork, the fact that all the kids were to be slaves as well, and the stark racial aspect that meant free blacks suffered too
Dirty Mcdrawz
Your girl loves em....
i understand what your saying zero but what i'm trying to say is that practitioners of islam are no different than christian practitioners. the majority of practitioners do not follow the qu'ran or bible step by step. they may "try" but they fail because they are human. furthermore culture overrides faith.....
Techniec
Drugs and Kalashnikovs
Ultimately this is a moot point because slavery is an evil institution and had Islam been a deen for all mankind for all eternity it would've banned slavery not try to reform it or present a more enlightened version of it
I will give it props for being revolutionary and ahead of its time but again we already knew that to be the case with Islam in other sphere
I reject a comparison between Islamic and Christian slavery for 2 reasons
1- christian slavery was more race based. Islamic empires made slaves out of Turkic nomads, Africans and Balkan Christians whereas Christian slavery was predominately black
2- Christian history in Africa was exploitative with the exception of Copts and Abyssinia whereas there are countless examples of indigenous African Islamic empires and leaders achieving great success
3- there is no example that I know of where Christian slaves became anything other than slaves or second class citizens whereas there are numerous examples of Islamic slaves actually rising o be empires and leaders themselves (Mamelukes, ghaznavids )
Ultimately for some this is all moot because of the fact the very institution was allowed to exist
Thus Muslims cannot defend the divinity of the prophets message and it's eternal relevance but haters of the prophet can't deny the man was a revolutionary and should be commended for his stance towards slavery when contextualized properly
I will give it props for being revolutionary and ahead of its time but again we already knew that to be the case with Islam in other sphere
I reject a comparison between Islamic and Christian slavery for 2 reasons
1- christian slavery was more race based. Islamic empires made slaves out of Turkic nomads, Africans and Balkan Christians whereas Christian slavery was predominately black
2- Christian history in Africa was exploitative with the exception of Copts and Abyssinia whereas there are countless examples of indigenous African Islamic empires and leaders achieving great success
3- there is no example that I know of where Christian slaves became anything other than slaves or second class citizens whereas there are numerous examples of Islamic slaves actually rising o be empires and leaders themselves (Mamelukes, ghaznavids )
Ultimately for some this is all moot because of the fact the very institution was allowed to exist
Thus Muslims cannot defend the divinity of the prophets message and it's eternal relevance but haters of the prophet can't deny the man was a revolutionary and should be commended for his stance towards slavery when contextualized properly
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theworldismine13
God Emperor of SOHH
this is some islamic revisionist history, there is no reason to think the islamic slave trade involved less suffering than the trans atlantic slave trade, a large part of the isalmic slave trade involved castration of males and sex slavery for females, that is why the black population that was enslaved never survived as a group in the middle east the way they did in the americas, to say the european slave trade was worse is muslim lie
the other muslim lie is this notion that islam was some how revolutionary in treating slaves in world history, that is a bold face lie, islamic laws concerning slaves were not anymore enlightened that the romans and the greeks who also had laws to protect slaves
and tangentially its also a historical lie, that some mulsim stated in this thread, to say that in the ancient world blacks were looked down upon by everybody in the world and islam came and rescued them and made them equal. That is a lie, the roman and the greeks looked down at everybody, there is no particular history of romans and greeks looking down at blacks anymore than they looked down at everybody else, and the greeks for sure did not look down at blacks in particular since they admired and learned from a black civilization
the other lie that was told in this thread is that it wasnt race based, as far as africa was concerned it was race based, this whole thing of conflating the mamuluks slave armies with the african slave trade is a distraction, once you take away the use of slave armies, the islamic slave trade in africa was pretty much identical to the european slave trade, except muslims castrated males
muslims were just as devilish in their own way and to top it off, it was europeans that forced muslims to end slavery in the late 19th century and till this day there is slavery going on in the muslim would, thats real slavery not this figurative slavery people talk about nowadays
so the bottom lie is that the islamic world is not standing on a higher moral ground than europeans when it comes to slavery
theworldismine13
God Emperor of SOHH
i missed this, so let me respond for so you can get it straight
i understand perfectly, and for the billionth time
I point blank reject the concept of third world solidarity
I'm not talking about just the middle east, I'm talking in general. For example a lot of forced labor today is slavery too but the transatlantic slave trade and plantation slavery is particularly different. Even after the transatlantic migration, slavery in e.g. Brazil was very different from southern plantation slavery. So the idea I was responding to (that there are no degrees of suffering in slavery) is very wrong.
that's one of the slogans in question
theworldismine13
God Emperor of SOHH
of course they were different, just like slavery in the rural south was different then slavery in early southern cities, just like working in the fields was different than working in the house
but those factoids are moot in terms of discussing the actual morality of slavery because no matter what they represent a violation of individual freedom and also i think in the context of this thread you are insinuating that the european slave trade was worse than the islamic slave trade, which is simply not true even using objective measures
theworldismine13
God Emperor of SOHH
im not even sure what this means, but im just saying it clearly cuz you have a habit of coming at me with this asinine attitude which assumes every black person has to align themselves with your world view
like i still dont get it, why would i give a fuk about what Dizze Gillespie thinks? how is that relevant to anything?
It's not about your opinion though. I'm making a descriptive claim, not providing you some agenda item that you have to sign on to. It is a fact that an American civil rights leader organized nonviolent civil disobedience after learning it from Gandhi <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayard_Rustin>. It is a fact that African liberation and third world liberation went hand in hand in terms of philosophies and approaches. It is a fact that many black americans aligned themselves with arabs and muslims. All these issues are connected because they were all part of the same ideas and movements.
African American civil rights, African liberation, and the rest of the third world's liberation and civil rights movements are already linked deeply in history of ideas, movements and people. The fact that you don't want to acknowledge that doesn't change the reality.
theworldismine13
God Emperor of SOHH
i never said they werent, I never disputed that history
what makes you think im un aware of it?
i just dont understand why you and the other clown bring it up when im saying straight to your face that ive rejected that history and i think those black leaders made a mistake
what part of "I do not agree with third world liberation ideologies" do you have a problem understanding?
Why does your brain have so much trouble digesting the fact that I am aware of that history, I thought about it, I have analyzed it and I came to the conclusion that a lot of mistakes were made and therefore I, being of free mind and free intellect, have rejected a lot of ideas espoused by previous people
It's because that's just taking a personal, meaningless stance. You reject the integrated approach that freed a planet and instead examine the balance of everything through your delusional "black empire" stance. Good luck with that, just don't engage in complete denial of the actual interconnections that existed and continue to do so.
theworldismine13
God Emperor of SOHH
of course its a personal stance, thats my whole point, if its meaningless to you then let it be meaningless to you
im not sure what history you claim that im denying, i havent denied history, in fact in this thread ive clarified history
what you are trying to do is take certain parts of history and ignore others and ignore an actual analysis of history, bringing up facts is not a form of intellectualism and its not an argument if it isnt accompanied with analysis
you cant just make a post about dizzie gillispie and islam and use that fact without adding other facts of blacks and islam and particularly islam and slavery, you are intellectually dishonest
you can't just ignore facts that dont contribute to your world view of third world solidarity, your cognitive dissonance is astounding
how can you talk about freeing the world, when "freeing the world" included the british forcing muslims to stop slavery and how can you ignore the fact that at this very moment muslims are engaging in slavery and the muslim world is rife with racism?
you cant just bring up certain facts that you think are positive, you have to analyze all the facts and the results of that history
nothing is monolithic in life. Of course the brits have contributed , the same way they've also oppressed.